6.5 Grendel vs. 308

I've had a couple of 308's. They're fine if that's your cup of tea, but mine never seemed to shoot like everyone says a 308 should. I just find it, well, boring I guess and would say the same thing of the 223. I do currently have a 260, and 300 saum in AR's. They are very accurate and work well.

AFA reliability, so far haven't broken anything with my 264 and 243 lbc, with about 500 down one and 300 down the other. Not much of a round count I know, but they run well. Otoh, I do have a parts bin with 3 broken 308 extractors, all DPMS, one is from the saum. So they aren't exactly bullet proof either.

Build what you think you will like; you will be the one shooting it, not us.
 
Never had any issues with Grendel mags and I own a variety, including 24 rd e-landers. I see AA sells the elanders in a variety of capacities now, I wouldn't hesitate to get many more of these. The 24 rounders I have are built like a brick house, if you happen to find the lemon of the lot you could always throw it at the target and take it down!
 
After I got rid of my 6x45 and 300 Blackout I looked hard at the 6.5 Grendel as I did prior to choosing the 6x45. I went with a .308 because you need a longer barrel with a Grendel to attain velocities comparable to a .308. That is important because regardless of caliber 2000 FPS is the minimum velocity required to achieve bullet expansion. Depending on bullet design some hunting bullets require a little more than that number some a bit less. With a 24 inch barrel on a Grendel you will drop to 2000 FPS at about 300 yards. With a .308 I can get 300-400 yards depending on bullet weight with a 20 inch barrel before it drops below 2000 FPS.
 
Originally Posted By: NightvisionaryAfter I got rid of my 6x45 and 300 Blackout I looked hard at the 6.5 Grendel as I did prior to choosing the 6x45. I went with a .308 because you need a longer barrel with a Grendel to attain velocities comparable to a .308. That is important because regardless of caliber 2000 FPS is the minimum velocity required to achieve bullet expansion. Depending on bullet design some hunting bullets require a little more than that number some a bit less. With a 24 inch barrel on a Grendel you will drop to 2000 FPS at about 300 yards. With a .308 I can get 300-400 yards depending on bullet weight with a 20 inch barrel before it drops below 2000 FPS.

These cartridges have their differences and perhaps advantages over each other in certain areas, but this type of thinking is just wrong. In more than one instance, a phone call to Hornady has indicated the SST will provide "good expansion" at velocities down to 1600fps. The proof is in the numbers. These are pretty [beeep] close from memory of two rifles I shoot regularly. The Grendel is a 20" and the 308 is a 24".



At 345 yards the exit wound here was large enough to prove to me that "good expansion" still occurred at that distance.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGDepends on the bullet. For example, Barnes recommends impact velocity about 1800 fps for the TTSX to expand reliably.

as a blackout shooter - and hunter - chasing sub 2000 fps expansion velocity hunting bullets and sorting them out from the standard .308 stuff has almost become a hobby.


the Tac-Tx 110 & 120gr "blacktip" will expand down to 1400 FPS.

hornady's vmax, SST, FTX, GMX all have terminal thresholds down into the 1600 fps range

lehigh 108gr CF bullet has a terminal threshold down to 800 fps.

sierra has two 30 caliber offerings that go into the 1500 fps range - the new 135gr HP "varminter" and their 110gr HP.

speer 125 tnt's terminal threshold is 1500 fps.

there are also multiple offerings for heavy / subsonic options that expand down to pistol level velocities - 750-800 fps type stuff.

the 90gr hornady .309 XTP expands down to around 800 fps, and from what i understand quite violently expands in the >1800 fps range. unfortunately that one isn't AR friendly... the bolt/single shot folks only get to mess with that one. but they have the option of running this as a 110gr sub thats dog fart quiet with a supressor.






the sierra 135 varminter shows some great accuracy potential in early testing i've done. with a 2000 FPS muzzle velocity and its 1600 FPS terminal threshold, its a reasonable 200 yd hunting bullet. i havent run the numbers yet, but its safe to assume that you could come up with a nice wide MPBR zero that could easily push into 135 yd range - which would more than suit my whitetail needs. I plan to do more accuracy testing as this may well end up being my new whitetail bullet! i tested some loaded ammo within the last few months from Ozark and at 2155 FPS and shot sub 3/4 MOA for me.

I'll have some bullets ordered here soon to test when spring gets its head out of its collective butt and decides to make more than a 72 hour appearance
smile.gif




my point is - there's lots of stuff out there that will expand under 2000 fps - you just have to search for it.
 
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Originally Posted By: Plant.OneOriginally Posted By: DiRTY DOGDepends on the bullet. For example, Barnes recommends impact velocity about 1800 fps for the TTSX to expand reliably.

as a blackout shooter - and hunter - chasing sub 2000 fps expansion velocity hunting bullets and sorting them out from the standard .308 stuff has almost become a hobby.


the Tac-Tx 110 & 120gr "blacktip" will expand down to 1400 FPS.

hornady's vmax, SST, FTX, GMX all have terminal thresholds down into the 1600 fps range

lehigh 108gr CF bullet has a terminal threshold down to 800 fps.

sierra has two 30 caliber offerings that go into the 1500 fps range - the new 135gr HP "varminter" and their 110gr HP.

speer 125 tnt's terminal threshold is 1500 fps.

there are also multiple offerings for heavy / subsonic options that expand down to pistol level velocities - 750-800 fps type stuff.

the 90gr hornady .309 XTP expands down to around 800 fps, and from what i understand quite violently expands in the >1800 fps range. unfortunately that one isn't AR friendly... the bolt/single shot folks only get to mess with that one. but they have the option of running this as a 110gr sub thats dog fart quiet with a supressor.






the sierra 135 varminter shows some great accuracy potential in early testing i've done. with a 2000 FPS muzzle velocity and its 1600 FPS terminal threshold, its a reasonable 200 yd hunting bullet. i havent run the numbers yet, but its safe to assume that you could come up with a nice wide MPBR zero that could easily push into 135 yd range - which would more than suit my whitetail needs. I plan to do more accuracy testing as this may well end up being my new whitetail bullet! i tested some loaded ammo within the last few months from Ozark and at 2155 FPS and shot sub 3/4 MOA for me.

I'll have some bullets ordered here soon to test when spring gets its head out of its collective butt and decides to make more than a 72 hour appearance
smile.gif




my point is - there's lots of stuff out there that will expand under 2000 fps - you just have to search for it.

I don't know what you mean by the term "Terminal Threshold". Are you referring to minimum expansion velocity? If you are referring to minimum expansion velocity your numbers sound way off. Quite simply you can't get around physics. 2000 FPS is somewhat of a hard number in regards to the deformation properties of copper jacketed lead bullets. There are some ways to get around this. In the case of the Barnes #30811 110 grain Blacktip bullet for the 300 Blackout it offers some expansion down to 1350 FPS because it is basically a hollow point pistol bullet with an extremely large polymer tip.

The Nosler 64 grain BSB in .224 is able to offer expansion down to 1600 FPS due to a large exposed flat lead nose at the expense of ballistic coefficient. I would not count on the Hornady SST offering anything close to reasonable expansion down to 1600 FPS. Even Hornady recommends a minimum of 2000 FPS for every bullet you mentioned. I would not take any information from a tech rep over the phone as gospel because I have received incorrect information from them before.

The Nosler 125 grain BT advertises an expansion velocity down to 1800 feet per second but during my own testing with wetpack it offered no expansion at over 1900 FPS. Like I said before if you want consistent and reasonable expansion 2000 FPS is the magic number in regards to spire tipped rifle bullets. It is simply physics based on the mechanical properties of lead and copper. The only way to change that is to impart a mechanical design into the bullet such as a large hollow pount, exposed flat lead tip or an extremely thin jacket which typically results in fragmentation rather then proper expansion.
 
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Originally Posted By: Smokin BarrelOriginally Posted By: NightvisionaryAfter I got rid of my 6x45 and 300 Blackout I looked hard at the 6.5 Grendel as I did prior to choosing the 6x45. I went with a .308 because you need a longer barrel with a Grendel to attain velocities comparable to a .308. That is important because regardless of caliber 2000 FPS is the minimum velocity required to achieve bullet expansion. Depending on bullet design some hunting bullets require a little more than that number some a bit less. With a 24 inch barrel on a Grendel you will drop to 2000 FPS at about 300 yards. With a .308 I can get 300-400 yards depending on bullet weight with a 20 inch barrel before it drops below 2000 FPS.

These cartridges have their differences and perhaps advantages over each other in certain areas, but this type of thinking is just wrong. In more than one instance, a phone call to Hornady has indicated the SST will provide "good expansion" at velocities down to 1600fps. The proof is in the numbers. These are pretty [beeep] close from memory of two rifles I shoot regularly. The Grendel is a 20" and the 308 is a 24".



At 345 yards the exit wound here was large enough to prove to me that "good expansion" still occurred at that distance.




Did you personally confirm your muzzle velocity through a chronograph? If you did not recover the bullets how can you be sure they expanded? .264 bullets are quite long. A bullet that yaws or fragments can also produce a large wound. That does not make it ideal. In any case your own numbers show you are right a Hornadys recommended minimum velocity at about 310 yards which supports my earlier statement to some degree.
 
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Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGDepends on the bullet. For example, Barnes recommends impact velocity about 1800 fps for the TTSX to expand reliably.

1800 FPS is not for reliable ideal expansion. It is the velocity at which the bullet will offer some minimal level of expansion. The difference is illustrated in the picture below of a 62 grain TSX bullet. While the TSX bullet has a minimum expansion velocity 100 FPS higher than then TTSX the concept remains the same.

244xwur.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Nightvisionary

I don't know what you mean by the term "Terminal Threshold". Are you referring to minimum expansion velocity? If you are referring to minimum expansion velocity your numbers sound way off. Quite simply you can't get around physics. 2000 FPS is somewhat of a hard number in regards to the deformation properties of copper jacketed lead bullets. There are some ways to get around this. In the case of the Barnes #30811 110 grain Blacktip bullet for the 300 Blackout it offers some expansion down to 1350 FPS because it is basically a hollow point pistol bullet with an extremely large polymer tip.

The Nosler 64 grain BSB in .224 is able to offer expansion down to 1600 FPS due to a large exposed flat lead nose at the expense of ballistic coefficient. I would not count on the Hornady SST offering anything close to reasonable expansion down to 1600 FPS. Even Hornady recommends a minimum of 2000 FPS for every bullet you mentioned. I would not take any information from a tech rep over the phone as gospel because I have received incorrect information from them before.

The Nosler 125 grain BT advertises an expansion velocity down to 1800 feet per second but during my own testing with wetpack it offered no expansion at over 1900 FPS. Like I said before if you want consistent and reasonable expansion 2000 FPS is the magic number in regards to spire tipped rifle bullets. It is simply physics based on the mechanical properties of lead and copper. The only way to change that is to impart a mechanical design into the bullet such as a large hollow pount, exposed flat lead tip or an extremely thin jacket which typically results in fragmentation rather then proper expansion.

yes, i'm referring to minimum expansion velocity.


in regards to the nosler 125BT - you'll notice i left it off the list. i know its "supposed" to expand down to 1800 fps, but i lost a buck (my first deer never recovered in 20+ years) due to one not expanding on me. i'll never hunt with them in a blackout again. I had a 65 yd standing neck shot, put him on the ground, he chicken flopped and hopped back up. good blood for about 150 yds and then he crossed a fence & some down tree's and the bloodtrail just shut down. like turning off a spigot. This was on 2" of virgin snow no less. i lost his trail when it got mixed in with a bunch of tracks from foraging under a stand of oaks. MV was 2050 FPS so impact velocity should have been just north of 1900 fps.

the data i shared on minimum impact has been verified by contact with the various bullet manufacturers (by multiple people) and is a list that's been compiled over several years. i have to trust that companies like hornady knows what fps their bullets lose their expandability. many of those have been verified (by others, not me personally) by wetpack testing by either downloading (low fps MV) them to simulate longer distance impacts at close range, or loading to full velocity and wet pack testing at 100 yds or more.

i understand and accept that for example you wont see violent expansion at 1700-1800 fps range on a 110gr VMAX - as you would at 308 velocities - but it will expand like we expect a typical SP hunting bullet at 2500fps would. good reliable expansion, a nice mushroom and weight retention.


I've tested the results on meat with a 125 SST - i know first hand they expand at a 2050 fps MV. i put one through a racoon and it left an exit wound you could drop a quarter into and only get bloody if you bumped the side going in. impact velocity was ~1925 fps and that load wont fall below 1600 fps until a little past the 175yd mark. If they'll expand like that in something relatively soft like a racoon... i'll trust that they'll do their job on a deer sized target.
 
Plant.one

For what it's worth here are some 300 Blackout tests I did a few years ago. It looks like I confused the Nosler 125 Accubond with the Nosler 125 BT in my earlier statement. The BT didn't really expand though. It just shed it's jacket. The Accubond did not expand at all at. I also performed a ballistic coefficient test on the Accubond which tends to show the BC info I obtained from Nosler was incorrect. When I called the Nosler tech services line the tech could not tell me what the BC would be at 300 Blackout velocities so he transfered my to the engineer that performs the actual testing. The information he gave me was incorrect which is why I don't completely rely on any information given by the manufacturer. Sometimes even they don't know.

300 Blackout wetpack tests



300 Blackout Nolser 125 load development with actual BC
 
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i recall those threads. you're pushing your nosler BT's quite a bit faster than i am.


the data i posted, just for my quick reference was from Dr.Phil's thread regarding max effective range of various bullets. http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=97188

thats not my only source, and his list is just a compilation of what folks over there have come up with and sleuth'ed out from various testing and manufacturer data & combined with his own testing.

its a great read regarding bullet capabilities.
 


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