9mm vs .45ACP
- Thread starter Hidalgo
- Start date
As far as which round to get, to be honest I like the 45, I have had both and carried both an never felt undergunned. My wife and I both had kahrs, good guns, great customer service, I sold mine because I needed a new toy, I got rid of hers because the slide was hard for her to pull back. I mainly stick with revolvers in .357 for personal carry, back when I was working for the bail bondsman I carried the .45 just because of the easy reload and a big gun on my hip got the point across better than a smaller one. btw have never needed to use it, nor have I ever needed to pull it, thank god.
As far as stopping power, is it really going to matter after you empty a mag of 9's or .45s into them, no I dont think so, I personally go with the idea that if Im going to shoot him once he may as well take em all cause I have a spare in the pouch, and dead is dead no matter how many times he got hit.
As to the commander, I would pass, they are a not very reliable with a variety of rounds, for this reason I got rid of mine, any HP will give you problems out of the gate, rounded bullets like the glaser rounds did feed ok, also they made pne in an aluminum aloy frame, light but prone to cracking, and an all steel frame, much better from what ive been told, if im wrong on this please someone correct me.
If it were me, Id take the wife and go shopping, like was suggested one for her, one for you. for the money the springfields are very very nice, and take a look at the kahrs as well, nice little package, and many options.
good luck and have fun with the shopping
Dave
As far as stopping power, is it really going to matter after you empty a mag of 9's or .45s into them, no I dont think so, I personally go with the idea that if Im going to shoot him once he may as well take em all cause I have a spare in the pouch, and dead is dead no matter how many times he got hit.
As to the commander, I would pass, they are a not very reliable with a variety of rounds, for this reason I got rid of mine, any HP will give you problems out of the gate, rounded bullets like the glaser rounds did feed ok, also they made pne in an aluminum aloy frame, light but prone to cracking, and an all steel frame, much better from what ive been told, if im wrong on this please someone correct me.
If it were me, Id take the wife and go shopping, like was suggested one for her, one for you. for the money the springfields are very very nice, and take a look at the kahrs as well, nice little package, and many options.
good luck and have fun with the shopping
Dave
blinddog
New member
The recoil in a 9mm I have found seems to be a bit sharper than the 45 ACP. If she has hands that can grip the 1911 frame then she will be able to shoot the 45ACP as well as the 9 if you can disuade her from the propaganda. It really is mild for a defensive handgun have her try a small frame 357 for a few rounds then let her shoot the 1911 45 trust me she will decide she loves it.
Greg_Meyer
New member
Buy her a good .44 special revolver or if that is too much, a good .38spl (best for her would be a mdl 10 heavy barrel) loaded with good ammo... and, with a laser grip sight... she will remember to pull the trigger... she may not rember to drop a safety... or anything thing else... KISS...
I am a retired LEO... Way too many stories of cops doing poorly in gunfights to think that your wife will do well... sorry to be so blunt. but, I want to help you.
I am a retired LEO... Way too many stories of cops doing poorly in gunfights to think that your wife will do well... sorry to be so blunt. but, I want to help you.
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GC
Well-known member
You need two dedicated self defense handguns, one for you - one for her. Your "one gun do-it-all" approach is going to leave you, or her, in a pickle some day. Afterall, what if you have the gun one day and she needs it? Give her ownership and let her take some responsibility for her own personal safety. Having her own dedicated gun will allow her that ownership and feeling of self responsibity. Her gun must fit her, she probably doesn't wear your shoes does she? Same for gloves? It is just as important/more so for her handgun. Fit of the handgun is paramount to your wife's ability to handle the handgun well, and, ultimately her confidence and success shooting it. My wife is petite and has small hands, my 1911 or mid-large revolvers, doesn't fit her well at all. My little lady has a Lady Kahr K9 9mm with night sights. She handles it very well, it fits her hands and strength level, and she has confidence in her ability to place her shots. She does not like my .45's or .357's at all. Your wife may have larger hands, but please take that into consideration.
Caliber selection is mostly over rated. Handguns just aren't all that great for fighting weapons. Longguns, as in shotguns and rifles, are vastly superior. In a handgun two things are king - shot placement & reliable penetration. Give her a gun she is comfortable with and can hit quickly and effectively with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Caliber selection is mostly over rated. Handguns just aren't all that great for fighting weapons. Longguns, as in shotguns and rifles, are vastly superior. In a handgun two things are king - shot placement & reliable penetration. Give her a gun she is comfortable with and can hit quickly and effectively with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
viper
Well-known member
Buy what ever you will carry and do not get caught up in 9mm VS .45 I have seen both work, and both fail. I have seen several people over the years shot stone cold dead with a .22 cal handgun. Personally I like the high capacity guns like a glock 19 to give plenty of fire power and a small easy to carry size. And I have a kimber tactical 1911 which is a nice gun but 90 percent of the time I carry the glock with me.
Colorado Pete
New member
+1 for GC. She might be happier with her own piece.
Is your wife a shooter? I mean a real serious shooter, not an occasional one who shoots just because you do. If so you could probably teach her to handle a .45, I seem to recall that Col. Cooper wrote that he had successfully taught very tiny women to competently shoot the .45 1911. Proper grip and forward weight bias to absorb recoil, as well as being mentally unafraid of the kick and just 'letting it happen', are key. Tarry's idea of downloaded rounds (3.5 Bullseye and a 185) is good, in a full-size steel 1911 they are very gentle and a good 'acclimatizer'.
If she is not a serious shooter, and you are thinking purely home defense (not carry), why not get her a 20 gauge shotgun or one of those little Marlin Camp Carbine semi-autos that take pistol magazines (9mm/.45)? For a carry gun, a small steel-frame .38 like the Smith M60 J-frame with 3" barrel and adjustable (large and easy to see) sights using +P .38's might be good - simple, small, easy to shoot.
Is your wife a shooter? I mean a real serious shooter, not an occasional one who shoots just because you do. If so you could probably teach her to handle a .45, I seem to recall that Col. Cooper wrote that he had successfully taught very tiny women to competently shoot the .45 1911. Proper grip and forward weight bias to absorb recoil, as well as being mentally unafraid of the kick and just 'letting it happen', are key. Tarry's idea of downloaded rounds (3.5 Bullseye and a 185) is good, in a full-size steel 1911 they are very gentle and a good 'acclimatizer'.
If she is not a serious shooter, and you are thinking purely home defense (not carry), why not get her a 20 gauge shotgun or one of those little Marlin Camp Carbine semi-autos that take pistol magazines (9mm/.45)? For a carry gun, a small steel-frame .38 like the Smith M60 J-frame with 3" barrel and adjustable (large and easy to see) sights using +P .38's might be good - simple, small, easy to shoot.
tripod3
New member
I say get as large of caliber in a style of gun she can handle under stress. If she is competent with an auto then great. Any hesitations or time to think or low strength for loading then consider a revolver.
For caliber I choose a .38/.357, .40, .45 for more power with a good bullet choice.
I am not sure the penetration charts are the only thing to compare. Much like shooting a coyote with a .50 caliber and watch it run off. Energy transfer is what counts beyond placement.
One thing that I can attest to is even with great energy transfer and massive damage/bone breakage they may not feel any pain for 1 or 2 minutes. Plenty of time to cause harm or keep shooting even if they are dying.
We have gang problems here whose weapon of choice is 9mm. Once in a while one dies but most go to the hospital and get released. Some walk to the emergency room.
For caliber I choose a .38/.357, .40, .45 for more power with a good bullet choice.
I am not sure the penetration charts are the only thing to compare. Much like shooting a coyote with a .50 caliber and watch it run off. Energy transfer is what counts beyond placement.
One thing that I can attest to is even with great energy transfer and massive damage/bone breakage they may not feel any pain for 1 or 2 minutes. Plenty of time to cause harm or keep shooting even if they are dying.
We have gang problems here whose weapon of choice is 9mm. Once in a while one dies but most go to the hospital and get released. Some walk to the emergency room.
Doubleclutch
New member
I bought a 9mm simiauto for lady once. She could not pull back the slide. She was deadly with a Rugger 22 MKII. 10 to the brain in about 6 seconds from under 10 yards. A 22LR is a deep penatrator. Got rid of a fine 6" S&W 357. One shot inside in the dark and you are blind and deff, can't even hear which way to put 2nd shot. Women seem to more than men need what suites them.......
I'll take another angle here. Get her a Taser. Many women (and men) would be more likely to have a gun taken away from them by the time before they realize that the condition warrants deadly force. Many would be caught in those moments of indecision, having second thoughts about killing somebody.
I know that sounds sexist but from all that I've read, most people don't have it in 'em to actually take a life.
And FWIW, my wife carries a nickel Python in her truck. She's not big but she's not petite either. She shoots it better than I do. If she's ever put in a panic situation, my prayer is that the shiny 8" barrel is intimidating enough to make someone change their mind about whatever they were thinking of doing to her or my kids.
If you are planning to get her a pistol, investing in a few hours of combat/self-defense training with her new pistol might make a life or death difference.
I know that sounds sexist but from all that I've read, most people don't have it in 'em to actually take a life.
And FWIW, my wife carries a nickel Python in her truck. She's not big but she's not petite either. She shoots it better than I do. If she's ever put in a panic situation, my prayer is that the shiny 8" barrel is intimidating enough to make someone change their mind about whatever they were thinking of doing to her or my kids.
If you are planning to get her a pistol, investing in a few hours of combat/self-defense training with her new pistol might make a life or death difference.
White Eagle
New member
I wouldn't go smaller if anything I would go bigger
The way I look at it if and the big IF.. If I have to have a gun in my night stand under my bed ect..it is time to move but things being as they are I would care not for the perp's well being and get what I am familiar with /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
The way I look at it if and the big IF.. If I have to have a gun in my night stand under my bed ect..it is time to move but things being as they are I would care not for the perp's well being and get what I am familiar with /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
MNHNTR
New member
just an opinion. i was in the army at the time of the .45 to 9mm switch what a freakin joke. why would anyone reduce firepower. i have a 10mm and wouldn't ever consider a 9mm. they bounce off winshields dont penetrate 2x4s and can take several rounds to stop a drug hyped criminal. ask yourself why nearly all police departments have gotten away from 9mm and gone to .40 or bigger. i dont know about you but if confronted by some guy hyped up on meth breaking into my house i want a round that will pick him up and set him down on his arse. find a 9mm that will do that. your .45 will with the right loads. and that little penetration test pic is worthless if you look at what load was used they handicapped the competition. again this is my opinion and any debate on the topic is welcome
I happen to have a 9mm and a 45 handy, also I have a 2x4 and an old car with winshield in tact, when the weather breaks I will test both on the car and 2x4.. And if you can send me 2 drug hyped criminals I will test it out on them also /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif Just kidding, I don't want to offend any drug hyped criminals out there.. I won't have any pics so you will have to take my word on the results
Dave
Dave
Stealth1959
New member
I saw some autopsy photos of two guys shot through a windshield from about 7 yards away with a 9MM. One guy had a head shot and the other had a head and chest shot. Both guys dead as a hammer.
I am of the shot placement school of thought. I own a 14 year old used Glock 22 in .40 and I feel pretty comfident with that. I would feel just as safe with a 9mm with 16 JHPs on board.
I am of the shot placement school of thought. I own a 14 year old used Glock 22 in .40 and I feel pretty comfident with that. I would feel just as safe with a 9mm with 16 JHPs on board.
MNHNTR
New member
wish i had a few criminals to send for the test /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gifi am not sying they will bounce off 100% of the time but i have seen after action reviews of shootouts between law enforcement and thugs and they have been shown several times that one or more of the 9mm rounds by the good guys deflected off the angled windshield and failed to stop the suspects. i am a 100% kind of guy when it comes to my life or family members. i want a round that i KNOW i can depend on. i like the .45 and .40 but in MN the 10mm is the only legal auto round you can hunt with other than a 50AE or one of the auto cannons that cost a fortune
tripod3
New member
I am in favor of the largest manageable round. I am under the impression that hunting, military, or police may have different guidelines or criteria to meet.
Wasn't the 10mm developed for government agencies but abandoned because of over penetration of walls for example. Nothing against the 10 just thinking. Hunting usually occurs at a greater distance with larger animals.
Then isn't the military changed back to .45 for it's stopping power because the 9mm was lacking.
It seems the .40 has gained popularity for police and civilian alike for the extra power.
I have had guys scoff at a .22 until I ask them if they want someone shooting at them with it. One that often gets overlooked is the .22 magnum. I know a federal prosecutor that chooses to carry it.
Just thinking out loud.
Wasn't the 10mm developed for government agencies but abandoned because of over penetration of walls for example. Nothing against the 10 just thinking. Hunting usually occurs at a greater distance with larger animals.
Then isn't the military changed back to .45 for it's stopping power because the 9mm was lacking.
It seems the .40 has gained popularity for police and civilian alike for the extra power.
I have had guys scoff at a .22 until I ask them if they want someone shooting at them with it. One that often gets overlooked is the .22 magnum. I know a federal prosecutor that chooses to carry it.
Just thinking out loud.
Greg_Meyer
New member
Oh man, this is like WWIII (potentially). As I said, I retired in 1994 so I have not been actively following these issues on a daily basis. But, these folks http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
have some pretty impressive crdentials and list lots of data and articles (there are many others).
This "business" is full of "myths" and "false prophets". And, these guys seem to be interested only in facts and real scientific data (at least as scientific as it can get). There will always be anecdotal anomolies, always... ANd, at either end of the spectrum. The deadly... .22LR (and it really is lethal many times, but usually as a result of the infections they cause)... And, then the perp with 10 hits from a .45 that drives away and removes the bullets alone in the motel room using vodka and a pocket knife...
Here goes, an additonal IMHO statement to expand on my previous one. First, not to belabor the point, but first as a firearms instructor, then the department Rangemaster and a Supervisory Officer of the county's Tactical Team, it was my business to know as much about this matter as possible. Second, I have been on both ends of the gunfight, with the USMC in Vietnam and then as a police officer. None of that was "fun", but it was (for lack of a better term) "educational". I learned a few things along the way... I like the .223 for hunting... for combat I'll take a .308 or better any day... They just "work better"! And, in handguns, I like the .45ACP, then the .357, then the .40 and then the .38SPL and the 9mm is last... All based on "data" and experience...
The .45ACP works and works about as well as any handgun round is going to work... There are bigger and "badder" rounds but they aren't practical for a broad discussion... I will however admit that a .50 in A Desert Eagle will do just fine... And, the old .44 AutoMag will work also, and it too, quite well.... but not in the hands of the "usual" folks that need a defensive handgun... civilian or police.
The .40 is "almost" as good as a .45ACP... just ask around and that is the usual answer... Werll why get the "almost", when you can have the "good as" round. And, the .40 (and moreso, the 10mm... I love my Colt Delta) are asking way too much from the round... high pressures are not the friend of functionality, short or long term.
The .357 works almost as well as the .40 and has its own great attributes because of the platform... revolovers are just a good platform and tool. The reloading should not be an issue... if you need more than the six (or 7) rounds available you should have had time to retreat and get a long gun...
The 9mm suffers from a lot of poor real world performance reports. Usually, because someone is asking it to do a job it is not engineered to do... It is .75 inches long and the .38SPL is 1.115 inches long. They have the same diameter so go figure... How is the little brother going to outdo its taller relative? The engineers talk about velocity and lighter bullets...
The .38SPL in new modern revolvers can handle vastly higher pressures than most factory ammo... thus the +P and +P+ loads... Just don't use them in the older little Chief's Specials... But, in a modern heavy barrel Model 10... Virtually .3576 velocity with heavier bullets.
Now, I have already spouted off about hollow points in handguns... So, I will just ask this question... You have four major variables... Diameter... Velocity... Weight... and Bullet shape/construction... Bigger/More is better and since the "energy" fascination has been long ago debunked... Momentum and transferring that momentum is what really counts in handgun ammo... Do some math...
And, more importantly, listen to the combined wisdom of the "been there and done that" crowd. The anecdotal information, time and time again reports that the bigger heavier bullets are more effective than lighter smaller bullets.
For whatever reason, I guess mostly psychological, a "pass through" shot does not "end" the argument as well as a bulet that expends all its momentum in the target.
For my money, time and safety, I'll always take a caliber that starts with a "4" if I can, and if I can't and I get to pick one that starts with a "3", I'll go for the heavier bullet at some reasonably jacked up velocity that will not result in a pass through and will expend its energy in the target... And, lastly, recognizing that "expansion" is unreliable at handgun velocities, I will not try to rely on bullets that need to expand to be effective...
All of that said, I end up with wanting a .45ACP in a single stack 1911 (no DA for me)... carried cocked and locked. Or, a .357 or "hot" .38SPL in a good revolver.
have some pretty impressive crdentials and list lots of data and articles (there are many others).
This "business" is full of "myths" and "false prophets". And, these guys seem to be interested only in facts and real scientific data (at least as scientific as it can get). There will always be anecdotal anomolies, always... ANd, at either end of the spectrum. The deadly... .22LR (and it really is lethal many times, but usually as a result of the infections they cause)... And, then the perp with 10 hits from a .45 that drives away and removes the bullets alone in the motel room using vodka and a pocket knife...
Here goes, an additonal IMHO statement to expand on my previous one. First, not to belabor the point, but first as a firearms instructor, then the department Rangemaster and a Supervisory Officer of the county's Tactical Team, it was my business to know as much about this matter as possible. Second, I have been on both ends of the gunfight, with the USMC in Vietnam and then as a police officer. None of that was "fun", but it was (for lack of a better term) "educational". I learned a few things along the way... I like the .223 for hunting... for combat I'll take a .308 or better any day... They just "work better"! And, in handguns, I like the .45ACP, then the .357, then the .40 and then the .38SPL and the 9mm is last... All based on "data" and experience...
The .45ACP works and works about as well as any handgun round is going to work... There are bigger and "badder" rounds but they aren't practical for a broad discussion... I will however admit that a .50 in A Desert Eagle will do just fine... And, the old .44 AutoMag will work also, and it too, quite well.... but not in the hands of the "usual" folks that need a defensive handgun... civilian or police.
The .40 is "almost" as good as a .45ACP... just ask around and that is the usual answer... Werll why get the "almost", when you can have the "good as" round. And, the .40 (and moreso, the 10mm... I love my Colt Delta) are asking way too much from the round... high pressures are not the friend of functionality, short or long term.
The .357 works almost as well as the .40 and has its own great attributes because of the platform... revolovers are just a good platform and tool. The reloading should not be an issue... if you need more than the six (or 7) rounds available you should have had time to retreat and get a long gun...
The 9mm suffers from a lot of poor real world performance reports. Usually, because someone is asking it to do a job it is not engineered to do... It is .75 inches long and the .38SPL is 1.115 inches long. They have the same diameter so go figure... How is the little brother going to outdo its taller relative? The engineers talk about velocity and lighter bullets...
The .38SPL in new modern revolvers can handle vastly higher pressures than most factory ammo... thus the +P and +P+ loads... Just don't use them in the older little Chief's Specials... But, in a modern heavy barrel Model 10... Virtually .3576 velocity with heavier bullets.
Now, I have already spouted off about hollow points in handguns... So, I will just ask this question... You have four major variables... Diameter... Velocity... Weight... and Bullet shape/construction... Bigger/More is better and since the "energy" fascination has been long ago debunked... Momentum and transferring that momentum is what really counts in handgun ammo... Do some math...
And, more importantly, listen to the combined wisdom of the "been there and done that" crowd. The anecdotal information, time and time again reports that the bigger heavier bullets are more effective than lighter smaller bullets.
For whatever reason, I guess mostly psychological, a "pass through" shot does not "end" the argument as well as a bulet that expends all its momentum in the target.
For my money, time and safety, I'll always take a caliber that starts with a "4" if I can, and if I can't and I get to pick one that starts with a "3", I'll go for the heavier bullet at some reasonably jacked up velocity that will not result in a pass through and will expend its energy in the target... And, lastly, recognizing that "expansion" is unreliable at handgun velocities, I will not try to rely on bullets that need to expand to be effective...
All of that said, I end up with wanting a .45ACP in a single stack 1911 (no DA for me)... carried cocked and locked. Or, a .357 or "hot" .38SPL in a good revolver.