A Reloading Question

P

pyscodog

Active member
I am slowly falling into the realm of being an old fart and have been reloading for years and sometimes feel as I don't have a clue what I'm doing. I have heard that a Bench shooter can read his groups. He knows when the bullet needs more powder or his O.A.L. is not right. I load every rifle I have, hunting, varmint, target, as if it were a match grade rifle and want that type of accuracy. Most of the time I don't get it. Sometimes I get lucky and find that "sweet load". I guess my questions are, what tells you that your load need more powder and what signs in your groups tells you that your O.A.L. is not right? Hope this makes sense to you.
pyscodog
 
I'm not a real benchrest shooter, even though I shoot from a bench....In the target below, I took the horizontal string as just a little too much powder and the vertical string as just a bit too little powder,,, but I'm certainly not sure that is right as the powder charges in between were not worth saving..

The seating depth is still a mystery to me,,, I just go with the Luck of the Irish on that one..If I hit it right,,,good, other wise, I keep playing with it...I do know where one of my .204s like it set with two different bullets, but that is the Irish showing up;..

40grV-MaxLoads.jpg
 
Here is a pretty good description of how I do long range development and how to adjust your powder charge. In addition to this load development, if you keep careful notes, when you get to the match you can modify you charge a small amount to match previous results.

ladder testing
 



I can maybe answer a little of your question. Goodness knows I wrote enough about handloading and load development in the gun magazines, manuals and books.

I don't believe anyone can simply fire a group and, from that experience, divine that a better load would be found with a different bullet, a higher or lower charge of powder or a different OAL.

One thing I CAN tell you is that you want to work with ONLY ONE VARIABLE AT A TIME. If you change the OAL, don't change the powder charge at the same time; you would not know which variable (of the 2) changed accuracy.

When developing loads for a new rifle or barrel, I have always treated even standard cartridges as a wildcat. Surely each chamber, each barrel, is a total law unto it's own and you have to accept that.

Many years ago, I started sizing and priming cases at home and then traveling to the range to develop loads there. I would write out a plan of action and load the ammunition right at the range, making notes along the way.

How often have you loaded a whole "spread" of powder charges, only to get to the range and find that the second load was too hot? CRAP; take the stuff home, pull the bullets and load them again.

If you load at the range, you will quickly find that you can develop that "magic" load quickly and you can follow accuracy modes.

My equipment is a simple wooden frame with an RCBS Partner press (fine for seating only). I have a wind-protected area on the bench that works well for my electronic scale. Here's a few photos of my range bench. Oh, and by the way, it can be used either off of a truck tail gate or a bench at the range.

100_0382.jpg


100_0380.jpg


100_0380.jpg


Usually, I will shoot three-shot groups. Laugh if you want, but consider this: a load that will not group well with three shots will group no better in five
grin.gif


Then, after I have my three-shot groups shot and the results recorded, I got back and re-shoot the most promising loads ... five-shot groups this time.

After I have all of my five-shot group data recorded, if I'm doing a feature article and need absolutely solid data, I'll go back and fire each of the finest five-shot loads in aggregates of four five-shot groups. The aggregate approach really separates out the finest loads.

Folks wonder why it took me an average of 100 hours to write each of my handloading articles. In a word ... Range time. The writing part takes maybe twenty hours, but the range time, if properly done, simply takes a lot of effort, thought and worm. It just takes time to develop great loads for a rifle and there simply is no substitute for it.

Feel free to ask questions. I'll monitor this thread for a while and am willing to help in any way I can.

Steve Timm



 
+1 on what Tim Said.

I load at the range, also. Load development is quick much of the time.

I can't say enough about only changing one variable at a time.

One thing that is missed completely by most shooters that shoot regularly is the use of wind flags. It is surely a mystery to me how dedicated shooters have escaped this very valuble tool...wind flags are very simple.

One comment that I will add, when I am getting vertical groups and there is no tail wind, it MAY be, and I stress May be, an indicator that there needs to be more powder or a hotter primer. The problem with this picture is that you may need to add more powder or go with a hotter primer to get to the next accuracy node, but you are way up there in the high pressure zone. Most rifles will have at least two accuracy nodes that they will be very accurate in, some three or more. This whole thing of "adding more powder when you see Verticle" is just one variable of several that you have to evaluate, not the least of which is bench technique when you get verticle, how much shoulder you put on the gun, etc.

Psycodog, nothing would help you more than to get a set up where you can load at the rifle range, and a set of wind flags...your learning curve is very quick because you can change the variables right on the spot. A high quality rifle rest, solid bench to shoot off of also goes a long ways in helping give you solid table techniques.

Every rifle range will have a predominant wind direction, learn your rifle range with the wind flags. You will be albe to quickly identify "flyers" due to pick up and let ups in the wind, not to mention changes in direction.

I wore out several 6MM Rem trying to better my groups just to find out that it was the wind when I started shooting BR. A $45-$65 investment in a wind flag (or a couple of wind flags would be even better) is very gratifying when it comes to working up load development...and that is an understatement!

Good luck in your quest for better accuracy!
 
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While not as fancy as Steve's, my range reloading set up is pretty simple...Everything fits inside my JW box and I flip the box up on it's side to give me a wind/breeze break when measuring my powder...It holds my scale and other supplies..

PortableLoadSet004.jpg


My press is an old Pacific "C" type and since it's only used for seating bullets, doesn't require a lot of pressure, but it will bolt to the board that also holds a powder dispenser...

PortableLoadSet001.jpg

PortableLoadSet002.jpg


The base board is held on an adjoining table with 'C' clamps or if the weather is bad, I can take everything inside the club house, but that's a lot of walking to make adjustments...
 
I guess I misunderstood your question. I though you were asking how comp. shooters know which direction to change a powder charge or seat depth to tweek their load at match time.
John
 
Originally Posted By: Steve Timm


I can maybe answer a little of your question. Goodness knows I wrote enough about handloading and load development in the gun magazines, manuals and books.

I don't believe anyone can simply fire a group and, from that experience, divine that a better load would be found with a different bullet, a higher or lower charge of powder or a different OAL.

One thing I CAN tell you is that you want to work with ONLY ONE VARIABLE AT A TIME. If you change the OAL, don't change the powder charge at the same time; you would not know which variable (of the 2) changed accuracy.

When developing loads for a new rifle or barrel, I have always treated even standard cartridges as a wildcat. Surely each chamber, each barrel, is a total law unto it's own and you have to accept that.

Many years ago, I started sizing and priming cases at home and then traveling to the range to develop loads there. I would write out a plan of action and load the ammunition right at the range, making notes along the way.

How often have you loaded a whole "spread" of powder charges, only to get to the range and find that the second load was too hot? CRAP; take the stuff home, pull the bullets and load them again.

If you load at the range, you will quickly find that you can develop that "magic" load quickly and you can follow accuracy modes.

My equipment is a simple wooden frame with an RCBS Partner press (fine for seating only). I have a wind-protected area on the bench that works well for my electronic scale. Here's a few photos of my range bench. Oh, and by the way, it can be used either off of a truck tail gate or a bench at the range.

100_0382.jpg


100_0380.jpg


100_0380.jpg


Usually, I will shoot three-shot groups. Laugh if you want, but consider this: a load that will not group well with three shots will group no better in five
grin.gif


Then, after I have my three-shot groups shot and the results recorded, I got back and re-shoot the most promising loads ... five-shot groups this time.

After I have all of my five-shot group data recorded, if I'm doing a feature article and need absolutely solid data, I'll go back and fire each of the finest five-shot loads in aggregates of four five-shot groups. The aggregate approach really separates out the finest loads.

Folks wonder why it took me an average of 100 hours to write each of my handloading articles. In a word ... Range time. The writing part takes maybe twenty hours, but the range time, if properly done, simply takes a lot of effort, thought and worm. It just takes time to develop great loads for a rifle and there simply is no substitute for it.

Feel free to ask questions. I'll monitor this thread for a while and am willing to help in any way I can.

Steve Timm





I'm not far enough in my loading abilities to warrant a setup like that but maybe one day! Knowledge like this is invaluable and I appreciate you and the other guys on here sharing it! Thanks!
 
You two old duffer's need to explain something to me. If your inexpensive press's are only used to seat bullet's at the range, how do you de-prime and size? Or do you take a whole bunch of sized cases with you?

That was pretty good, I figured out the answer right in the middle of catching them! What a nerd!!!
 


Originally Posted By: Don FischerYou two old duffer's need to explain something to me. If your inexpensive press's are only used to seat bullet's at the range, how do you de-prime and size? Or do you take a whole bunch of sized cases with you?

That was pretty good, I figured out the answer right in the middle of catching them! What a nerd!!!


Friend Don,

I size and prime cases at home, using a really heavy-duty (and straight) Redding UltraMag press. Usually, I'll take 100 to 200 prepared cases (sized, primed, trimmed and chamfered) to the range. Normally, I take too many, but that's better than too few.

The RCBS Partner press is a lightweight little thing, but it is up to the duty of seating bullets fine. Sometimes, I also use a Sinclair Arbor press to seat with Wilson hand dies.

So, the answer to your question is deprime, size and reprime at home, using relatively heavy-duty equipment. Then, charge with powder and seat bullets at the range, using protable and relatively light-duty equipment.

Steve Timm
 
I also prep my brass at home on my Forster Co-Ax press,,,I very seldom keep over 200 rounds loaded at any given time, just in case I get an odd chance to go to the range for an afternoon...

I have about a thousand prepped and primed cases in reserve for my .223s and .204s..I can easily charge cases and seat 100 bullets in a matter of minutes at my reloading bench..The ones I take to the range are just when I'm trying to find that "right" load...

Now that component availability is starting to loosen up a little, I will probably get back to tweaking some loads a little more,,, but there for a while, I was being pretty conservative in my loading..and just sticking to those that I knew were pretty good..
 
What a bunch of .......great information!! I have all the above tools mentioned above, with the exception of a confined box to put my scale in. (New govt. job at work)I will build the box ASAP. I have a wind flag and we also keep surveyors tape tied to several tall rods at the range. Thanks to all for giving me, and all others, who could benefit from this information. If you remember anything you might have missed, chime in please.
 

Kind of a crazy observation:

Even though I was a gun writer for over twenty-five years, that was never my occupation. Professionally, I was a goldsmith, diamond setter and a GIA Graduate Gemologist.

The training to be a Graduate Gemogist was extensive and exhaustive. Frankly, most "jewelers" are salesmen and call it good at that. Not me; I wanted to learn as much as I could about the gemstones we sold, so that I could honestly advise my customers on the products that they wanted to buy and, also, so I could buy with intellegence.

Anyway, one thing that was drilled into our heads as students of gemology: ALWAYS do your grading both for color and for imperfections, in the morning. Our teachers told us that our eyes are much more acute to the smallest deviations in color and imperfection in the morning.

I carried that knowledge into my load development. Not only is the wind usually down in the morning, but I just plain shoot better at that time of day.

I guess it sounds kind silly, but I've proved this to myself many times. When I have a load combination that shoots easily into the 5s in the morning ... given the same wind and sun, it's good for maybe the 7s in the afternoon.

Eyes that are "fresh" in the morning start to struggle a bit in the afternoon. I could also find it easy to believe that our hand/eye coordination would better in the morning.

And, believe it or not, there are mornings when I showed up at the range and I simply could not shoot well. I've learned that those mornings are better spent doing something else. So, if I go to the range and start struggling, I usually stop load development and just spend the range session having fun with a .22 rifle, practicing shooting positions or whatever. It just doesn't work to fight it, so I usually end up just having a good time and leaving the serious load development for a later "good day."

I don't know if there is any wisdom here for you, my handloading brothers, but you might consider it.

Steve Timm
 
Smooth Yote, you can surely benefit from wind flags, make no mistake about it.

Wind blows left, right, straight at you, and away from you.

You can watch the bullets blow as the wind changes, really cool when you can predict it which eliminates the "flyers" or more to the point, you can know for certainty which shots are wind.
 
Originally Posted By: Martyn4802Good thread here, with tons of good info.
I made up my own wind flags using music stands to use for range testing. They are important.

Thanks! I will start taking that into consideration and probably set up some flags. I'm just getting into shooting at distance and so far only out to 450 but it sure is a blast!
 
Get a wind flag and sit it about 10-25 yds in front of your target and watch it in your scope. If you are so inclined, for a right handed shooter, put another wind flag just off to the left of your line of sight about 10-15 yards in front of your bench. When you shoot with both eyes open, the close wind flag will be superinposed in the scope picture while you are looking at the target, you will see the flag in front of your bench.

Make no mistake about it, the flag close to you is the most important!

Take this whole wind flag seriously, and watch your groups shrink real fast, all for about $90...doesn't take much powder and bullets to shoot up $90, not to mention barrel wear, cleaning solvents, brushes, etc.
 


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