Accurate Cartridges.. 223Rem?

coleridge

coleridge

Active member
Some believe in "inherently accurate" cartridges and some don't. Some believe cartridge design has nothing to do with accuracy at all. Still, it's hard to negate the fact than the PPC & the BR case (or it's variant) dominate the extreme accuracy games (inside 600 yards) even with all the other case designs out there. However, once upon a time the bench rest king was the 222 Rem. And then there is the 222 Mag that is still considered "super accurate". Yet the 223Rem; right near the middle, hasn't ever really been considered; an accuracy giant by the masses.

I'm sure a lot of this comes from it's popularity. The "common-ness" of the cartridge is very luring to many people. Brass & components are so popular they have become very cheap. Cheap creates a market; and cheap rifles are built for cheap ammunition kind of build on each other (a recipe of for slop).

Then there is the AR "thing". I believe this has created by far the popularity of the cartridge. Yes there are AR's that are very accurate but there are also many "poppers" out there that live on a steady diet of steel case ammo with bi-metal jackets that I think all can agree is not going to win the overall aggregate at the next Super Shoot.

Or maybe it's lack of flare? It happens that most guy that build really nice high end custom rifles; capable of the top end accuracy usually like something a little... different. The 223AI, 22-204 & others just sound like a lot more fun than a vanilla 223Rem.

So in the end I guess I'm asking for those that believe case design matters; how the board thinks it stacks up comparatively. The ppc, BR & even the 308 are considered "inherently accurate". Is the 223Rem just another cartridge in the stack that doesn't stand out? Or did it not get a fair shake - because it's so good??? Watcha think?

Disclaimer-
I know there are THOUSANDS of itty bitty tiny groups shot with a 223Rem not creating the thread as a place to post single 3-5 shot groups... I'm not debating that. There have been great groups shot with 30/30's, 223WSSM's, and other cartidges that most would agree lack what is needed. I'm talking about VERY competitive, CONSISTANT shot to shot, group to group, top accuracy. Some cartridges just have a genre of accuracy, what about the 223?
 
The 223 cant agg with the PPC's and br variants. Not at any yardage. Is it case design? I don't really know but what I do know is the 6ppc 6br and 6Dasher are very accurate from 100-1000 and are relatively easy to load for.

The 223 plays a much better roll as a hunting cartridge as it feeds in about anything and accuracy is more than acceptable. This is all just IMHO.
 
The main difference in case design on 222 mag. versus 223 is the shorter neck. Some things just work, slight changes work better. The new Dasher brass will have a longer neck than a blown out 6BR case, time will tell if this improves the Dasher or not. I also wouldn't put a 308 in a bench rest match, the short fat cases have an edge on accuracy. Why, is a deep subject.
 
I guess ill be the instigator here....I love a 223. While I do believe it has its limitations, I have great luck out of it. I had a 223 built last summer off a 700 action to run the heavies. I run 75gr amaxs around 2880FPS in a 21.5" RVC bartlien 7.7" It is a hammer....one of the most accurate rifles I own. I have shot several LR matches with it. While the fast 6's and 6.5s obviously win in wind and longer shots, a 223 (ran properly) is not slouch. Out to 900 or so I feel confident with my load and rifle...wind is always something to be careful of.

Just last month I shot a LR steel match from 235 to 1000 yds. I held right with some of the bigger rifles for majority of ranges. 235-600 is a chip shot with it. I hit the face of a sledge hammer head at 235, 300, and 400 with it. Then at 500 and 600 hit smaller 6" plates. I personally think past 500 the heavy 223s and 308s are neck and neck. My buddy runs a 308 a lot of times, and anything past 500 we generally have same wind calls and similar dope. I think I was right at 10 mils to 1000 with my 223.

I don't really think you can compare the 22cal variants or the 6/6.5s anywhere in same class as a 223. You cannot push a 223 to the speeds you can with a 22 BR or 22-250. And you don't have the BC that you get with the heavy 6 and 6.5s. Its a different animal all together. However, I would assume that someone running a 223 would be aware of that. 10-15 MPH winds at distance....im taking the 6.5x47. If I want to have some fun and shoot cheap...im taking the 223.

As far as hunting....this could be picked apart any which way. I am pretty sure 223s have anchored animals up to deer sized game....plenty of times as a mater of fact. Heck...go under the hog forum here and read how many guys are dropped pigs in their tracks with 223s. It happens...a lot. It goes back to age old rule, shot placement. Shot placement is always king when hunting. This may be a stretch for some, but ill say it anyway. You could hit a coyote with a 300wm and have a runner if you don't put bullet in right spot. Where I have dropped coyotes, hammer dead, with a 223.

Another thing I like to point out, cost of shooting. I know it isn't a factor to some, but it is for a lot of us. If it cost $1+ every time you pull the trigger on a rifle you may not shoot it as much. If you don't have ample trigger time on a rifle, you may or may not feel confident each time you get behind it. With my 223 running around $.25-$.35 per round, I am not the least bit worried about going out and plinking with it when I want to. Thus I feel way more confident with it than I do some of my other toys. I know what to expect every time I pull trigger on that rifle. Am I a good shot...I don't think so, but confidence in your setup is important IMO.

Too many variables to truly say one thing is better than another.
 
I believe that there was a record that stood for a very long time with a 223 shooting 90g Bergers at 1000 yards.

I have had some very accurate rifles in custom 223's, and 223 AI 40x's in McMillen stocks, and they agg'd very well. You don't see very many Stolle Panda's, Hall actions, Borden actions, etc made with 223 bolt faces. Seems Benchrest shooters follow a trend to shoot something that is tried and proven vs taking a walk on the wild side with a case off the 223 size bolt face. You need some speed and wind bucking ability to win matches at 200 yards, thus the 6PPC walks off and leaves anything 22 caliber for short range benchrest.
 
I think the 223 has proven itself to be a very consistent in terms of accuracy in F-Class for guys who shoot F-TR or TR (Target Rifle).
This is the bi-pod class, and you only have two choices for cartridges (308 Win and 223).
The 223 Rem is used primarily by folks who are shooting F-Class at 500 yards or closer.
F-Class is a score game where the X-Ring is a 1/2 MOA in diameter and the 10 ring is 1 MOA in diameter.
So at 300 yards your X-Ring is 1.5" approx and your 10 ring is 3" approx.
You will easily be shooting 15 to 20 shots per relay.
A well built 223 is capable of very consistent accuracy.
 
I agree the 223 is a good one. I've had a bunch in AR's & bolts. With our "unlimited" yearly antlerless tags here in NC; I've likely killed more deer with just the 223 than many will kill in a lifetime (combined weapon). So yes, it's a great cartridge for anything from pop cans to deer sized game with proper shot placement. And also concur the cost of operating is the best part!

Still, it's just funny how the 222 (vanilla & mag) have pretty much the same frame & carry the prestige of "really accurate" while the very similar 223; not so much...

A while back on another forum, a member re-chambered a factory barrel from 223Rem to 222Rem Mag. He posted results and was quite impressive (esp considering the factory tube). He was pretty convinced (to put lightly) to say the 223 could never hold a candle (Rem or Mag 222). I just have to think maybe a good chamber job from a good smith v/s a wore out reamer & a below average employee with a Monday morning hang over could have played a part...??? Or maybe it just is?

While I've never built a dedicated top accuracy type rifle in 223, a year or two ago, I did try a Benchmark 1-12"blank chambered up by a reputable smith screwed on one of my LRPV's. It shot well, at times very well but never was as consistent as the 6BR barrels I've had on the same exact gun. Still, one barrel is hardly enough sample to make a educated decision. (Although I never will, I would really like to punch it out to 222RM to see what it would do).



 
I feel it is too subjective of a topic. Is a 223 more accurate than....xxx? I feel most calibers can be considered "accurate", given a solid platform to start with. You still a box stock rifle, next a built rifle with good components, results would certainly vary. Some cartridges seem to be "more accurate" for one reason or another. For instance, AI chambers, and the x47 line. However I still feel a quality built rifle, with quality components will produce an accurate rifle (accurate for that calibers limitations).

This topic could go several different ways, IMO. But since you asked about the 223, do I think the 223 is an accurate round...?? Heck yes I do. Ill stand behind mine for some time.
 
I shot a couple of dedicated short range BR rifles that were built on a bet that ANYTHING could be made to shoot well. They were chambered in THIRTY THIRTY and would shoot in the 1's and low 2's with boring regularity. I built myself a 30x44 with my .308 remasr to shoot BR with and it would shoot in the 3's at 210yds with winchester brass. I believe the .223 if built to BR standards could be a VERY sub 1/4moa shooter.
 
Originally Posted By: Willicd76I shot a couple of dedicated short range BR rifles that were built on a bet that ANYTHING could be made to shoot well. They were chambered in THIRTY THIRTY and would shoot in the 1's and low 2's with boring regularity. I built myself a 30x44 with my .308 remasr to shoot BR with and it would shoot in the 3's at 210yds with winchester brass. I believe the .223 if built to BR standards could be a VERY sub 1/4moa shooter.
This^^^^^^^^^^^
 
If certain cartridges were not inherently accurate then one would have just as good a chance at winning a benchrest competition with anything they bring...try it and let us know how that works out for you. I'll even save you some time...you got beat by a 6mm PPC, which, if it wasn't inherently accurate then tell us why and how it dominates and wins so much. So many people use it because they just like the way the case looks????
I think in regards to any given cartridge that was purpose designed you have to take into account what it was designed for. In the case of the PPC's they were designed for accuracy. The 223 was designed with several things in mind. More firepower per infantryman is one. By firepower I don't mean energy expended at the target, it's more rounds that can be carried into battle by the average warfighter. As in all military cartridges of late, a big concern is barrel life. The designer and the Army originally selected the 222 Remington magnum, but Army testing revealed that this cartridge burned up throats quicker than what was required. The 222 wasn't quite up to the task and so was born the 223. The basic shape of the case insured it would feed reliably in automatic weapons. The PPC was altered from this to a shape that enhanced accuracy.
Of course accuracy is a factor in military cartridges, but unlike the PPC it wasn't the number one priority. On the battlefield when you run out of ammo you go from being a bullet slinger to a bullet catcher...slingers win, catchers loose...it's just that simple and while the warfighter has to be able to hit his target{accuracy} shooting 1/4 MOA groups is not job 1.
Military rounds, at least the later adopted ones of all nations are a compromise towards several goals. That said, the most accurate rifle I have ever owned was a 223. Wish I still had it, because I cant get one to shoot now to save my tail.
Many people regard the 308 as inherently accurate, and it has certainly done it's share of winning. But when it was tested and became the M-14's round accuracy wasn't priority. M-14's were accepted with 4" groups at 100 meters as the accuracy requirement. Yet, the 308 has gone on to be the workhorse of the sniping world.
 
I have been back & forth but think I have to agree with those that there has to be something to cartridge design...

While many say that the short range BR guys are all followers and would be using whatever happened to win, if Willicd76 came to the BR match & whipped all those guys with his benchrest 30/30 that shot in the .1's (plenty good enough to win ANY multiple group match out there); doesn't that mean that all the other shooters would then follow that lead & Lapua now would be making brass for the 30/30 BR market?

Short range BR guys are "believers". They have crazy regiments of how to load, what to load, how to clean, when to clean (many times between relays there on the bench), what bullet to run, what barrel to run, even tune loads during the match. It's almost psychotic (I've been there, done it). They pay attention to what's winning (just like ANY discipline). You tell me that if there was ANY advantage they would not be using it... Hard not to think the ppc & BR case is the advantage?

For instance the "newish" 30BR is really taking a run at the 6ppc, specifically at NBRSA Varmint For Score (see an advantage here). But is also still prevalent in group score and I believe holds a record there if I'm not mistaken. Still some guys struggle with the increased recoil of the 30 (that is a value most guys on this forum would laugh at). So there is balance of recoil & barrel life that is considered for the BR guys. Because of the "game"; just any cartridge isn't going to work. They must be able to shoot it well & need a "good" barrel to give them a serviceable life but really cost of components are of little issue; worth the $$$ to be at the top (for the top competitors). So yes, the heavy magnums don't get a fair shake either but out of all the medium to small cases, only a couple prevail?

When looking side by side, the ppc & the 223Rem have similar case capacities (sleight edge to the ppc). There is plenty of options for quality components in each, & the ppc is "harder" to form & load. Yet there are no 6x45's (both being necked uo from 22 cal because of edge of 6mm bullets in the wind games) on the line & majority ppc's. That's substance to me...

Please take no offense, I have enjoyed opinions & hope there are more comments. I do believe that any cartridge can be made to shoot good. I just think some case designs will shoot consistently better day in & day out. But you know what opinions are like
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Good thoughts on it is somewhat dependent on which game or shooting discipline you are considering.
Some ramblings...
So what would be the standard for groups?
3-shots, 5-shots, 10-shots, 15 shots, or 20-shot groups?
Then deal with the distances.
Most inherently accurate cartridge at 600 yards or at 100 yards?

Most of your PPC's and similar cartridges will use a slower twist barrel for the 100/200 yard game than those shooting at 400-600 yards.
So would a 1-14 twist 6 PPC beat a 8T 223 at 500 yards consistently for group?

Then what is the weight limits if any?

Or the type of rests one can use or are we talking field shooting positions.

Depending which way you go, the size of groups you are talking about will be more shooter skill based if shooting off of a bi-pod, distances over 300 yards in switchy winds.

Are we going to allow for wind flags?
smile.gif


Or would this be indoor tunnel shooting in perfect conditions?
Just having fun here thinking about things

Whereas 100 or 200 yards with the best rifle money can buy, best rests, great loader, and great conditions.

It would be interesting to see what some of the top 100/200 yard BR shooters could do with a fully tricked 223 BR rifle.
I just doubt, anyone at the top of the short BR game would want to spend the money or the time to seriously try it though.

Kind of fun thinking about it though...
 
Originally Posted By: xphunter
It would be interesting to see what some of the top 100/200 yard BR shooters could do with a fully tricked 223 BR rifle.



Absolutely, in 22 or 24 version... It would be interesting!





As far as the others "ramblings"...

I think as long as it it consistent comparison. It wouldn't be fair to compare 5 shots out of an 8 pound gun to 20 shots out of a 20 pound gun... I'm thinking, compare exact guns (no such thing, but as close as possible) in different chamberings... Where it be 5, 20, 50, 1000 shots... Is one of them consistently better in same comparison.

Also, when I'm thinking accuracy, the absolute best it could be. Not counting shooter corrections at long range & good wind calls. With the same shooter pulling in exact same conditions. What would the groups be... Best precision I guess...

As far as the twist rates & different distances... The slow twist barrels typically shoot better. The fast twist barrels create higher RPM's that cause a stronger centripetal force on imperfections within the bullet. With perfect balanced bullet(s) it doesn't matter as much if any. But that one/few that does have a tiny more density in the jacket or varient in lead core will "fly" farther off target with a faster twist. Again the SR boys are looking for every advantage for top accuracy. So they give up high BC bullets for a better more true line. They also buy good bullets with micro variation...

Sure when you break past 300 yards (or even 200), the heavier more aerodynamic bullets seem "more accurate". However, they only really negate the real world conditions the shooter doesn't account for. So that little puff or pocket of air in the bullet path affects high BC, heavier bullet less (even more once the more blunt bullet has slowed doen even more). Otherwise what we consider short range bullets, would still be just as good at LR.

While I understand in the real world there will always be conditions that effect bullet path (even inside a building with no wind); the BR case still dominates even at 600 yards. The dasher is by far the most dominate cartridge, yes with a fast twist that has been added to aid with unknown conditions...

So once you get real long (I consider 1000 yards real long) some of the bigger cases that can send even higher BC bullets at same or even high velocities come into play. There, a projectile from a big 6.5 or 300 that may not be as "accurate/percise" at closer range will be effected less by the unknowns (unaccounted) and actually result in better groups because of that. Once you break into extreme long range this is more relevant with big 338's & bigger.

When I think of accuracy, I guess I'm thinking close range... Suppose that's the reason I keep referring to benchrest. A gun that shoots in the same exact place (or extremely near), unless an obstacle causes it not to... Think of it as shooting through tall grass... A bigger bullet is likely to be effected less, but that doesn't make the gun shooting little bullets less accurate/precise (there was outside conditions made it not be). If the grass hadn't stuck the bullet, the PPC or BR launcher would have resulted in a tighter group than the XXXMag... Sometimes wind, atmosphere, mirage, air pockets, etc are your tall grass...
 
Originally Posted By: coleridgeOriginally Posted By: xphunter
It would be interesting to see what some of the top 100/200 yard BR shooters could do with a fully tricked 223 BR rifle.



Absolutely, in 22 or 24 version... It would be interesting!

When I think of accuracy, I guess I'm thinking close range... Suppose that's the reason I keep referring to benchrest. A gun that shoots in the same exact place (or extremely near)
With that in mind I would go with what wins in 100/200 BR world and not worry about anything else
 
Having said that, the short range BR world doesn't trip my trigger.
I don't know why, but I can't get excited about it.
 
While VERY crude. See illustration below of what I was trying to describe above...

Lets say the black lines are 50BMG shots with a new ultimate BC bullet unaffected by conditions. The red is standard 6PPC shots. While (again crude) & nowhere near to scale, this is a decent correlation to high BC v/s low BC bullet paths. In the example, the read lines are way more precise/accurate to the halfway point. But the black lines although way worse halfway, are tighter at the end...

(really poor artistic version of) Birdseye view looking down on shooter & bullet path (shooter obviously is at top)




A shooter that is BRILLIANT with reading conditions (no such thing either), could make all the read lines match at the end (change point of aim to adjust). The black lines are as good as it ever will be.
 
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Originally Posted By: xphunterHaving said that, the short range BR world doesn't trip my trigger.
I don't know why, but I can't get excited about it.

Yeah, I've shot it & it's enjoyable, even shot IBS at 1K it's it's the same. But to me PRS style shooting is WAY better. It is a blast! Neither really why I started the thread though.

Just to post something different than HMR v/s coyote & what rifle is the best to buy...
 
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