Accurate Rifle!!!!

coleridge

coleridge

Active member
Everyone likes bragging on their rifles & how great they shoot. That’s’ understandable because only accurate rifles are interesting; otherwise, we’d all carry a much lighter & more compact pistol with open sights.

“Accurate” is a relative term, as is Rich, Big, Pretty, etc.… What’s even more differential is how one deems what his rifle is capable of. MOA is often thrown around as is “Sub MOA” and the more specific ¾, ½, and even the holy grail of ¼ MOA. Some may spit this term loosely without really even knowing what “minute of angle” means or even what they are saying. Some just use inches at a certain distance (easily computed to MOA from that). Some guarantee a certain MOA but only out to a specific distance.

So what process do you go through to determine what your rifle is capable of? The long debate of 3 shot v/s 5shot group… “Three shots test the rifle, 5 shots test the shooter” (I never understood that one; if your rifle will shoot X/X MOA, does that not mean it will do it ALL the time? The average man can be still for 3 times but not 4-5?). If you do choose 3 shots, which seems to be the popular, what happens if two are touching & one flies 1-1/2” right? Do you shoot a forth & count the one as a mulligan if it goes back to the other two (you can always cover the flyer up or zoom in to just the other three)? Do you start over & shoot three more? Count just the two? Do you shoot until you get something you’re satisfied with & know for a fact then that’s what the rifle is capable of? Is it the average? Is it the worst? Is the 1st one “good enough” & you determine the rifle is better than you? Maybe the guy at Gander Mountain told you what it would shoot? Maybee it's based off a group you shot 3 years ago?

If you were to wright down a number right now, then get your rifle out this evening & banged out a group. How close would you be able to judge it? Wonder how many predictions would look like my NCAA bracket?
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wow... wow... we have a lot going on in the first post, I often ponder similar questions, and I would be willing to guess 99.5% of the time my conscience gets the better of me, and I go shoot a group... I admit, there are the days when everything mesh's you become one with your weapon, and drive your rounds through the same hole weather its a 3, 5 or 10 shot group @ 100, or your still "somehow" holding groups sub MOA @ a grand!!!
 
Very interesting Grasshopper.

For the average shooter if he has never had a rifle that was capable of shooting true 1/4 inch groups and had shot true 1/4 inch groups. He would never know if his rifle / rifles are capable of shooting small groups or if he is capable of shooting small groups because he has nothing to judge either by.
Now take him out to the range with a rifle that is a known 1/4 inch shooter (Talking perfect conditions) If he can shoot 1/4 inch groups or very close He then has a reference point to judge all his shooting by.


Does this make sense?


DAB
 
Coleridge,,Now if we can introduce the subject, "What is the definition of a really good rifle shot?", we might have a thread that goes on for a whale of a long time...

I only inject this aspect based on the way some people obtain their groups, but leave out the way that the firearm was set up on the outset...Lead Sled, Front/Rear Bags, Pinch Trigger Firing, etc....Or, did they just pick up the rifle, holding it in two hands and against their shoulder (the way I was initially taught to shoot)???....

I only bring this up because of one of my uncles that used to hunt with an old hex-barreled Marlin 30-30 and with the Winchester Silver Tip ammo from the '50s/'60s could take down almost any target he was after...The thought of shooting any way close to the way some of us judge our weapon's capability today would have had him laughing his head off....His attitude was,,,"It's not the gun as much as the person holding it"
 
Accurate rifles are not interesting - they're boring. Don't you guys like to invest a ton of money, time, and expletives in a rifle that you just "know" you can get to shoot? Then, after it has finally kicked your butt, you sell it for half of what you paid for it?
 
When I started shooting, back in the late 1950's, a rifle that would shoot 1 inch groups was considered a keeper. I'm talking about consistent 1 inch groups. We shot ground squirrels, jack rabbits, coyotes and other vermin with those rifles and seldom blamed the rifle for the miss. The K-6 Weaver or Redfield 6 power were the scope of choice. The rich kids had Unirtl or Layman target scopes. The rifles were mostly rebarreled Mausers with a sprinkling of Remingtons and Winchesters.

As rifles and scopes improved, groups got smaller and shooters shot at greater distance. The internet came along and more people began to expand their limits and abilities. Some found that it was much easier to become an internet expert than to actually spend hours on the range or dog town and accuracy took a giant leap in the process.

Now days when I see a target posted on a forum that shows a three round or five round group of less than 1/2 inch shot with a factory rifle I just move on to the next topic. Sure it might be an honest post, but I have seen so many 1/4 inch groups shot with factory rifle and ammo posted on the net that I just don't fall for it any more.

The fact that you fired a small group once dosen't mean that your rifle will do that again. Everyone has at least one wallet group that they fired on that perfect day. My 6MM BR Norma will consistently shoot under 1/2 inch and has shot many groups under 1/8 inch. It's not a stock rifle and I don't shoot factory ammo in it. When you tell me your factory rifle and ammo will out shoot any of my custom rifles, I''l just nod and walk away.
 
I go off the group sized I printed with that rifle. I don't shoot for groups often, but I know what the rifle will do if I do my part. This post has me thinking though. I haven't really printed the rifle from the bench since I changed the stock the point of aim didn't change when I went to sight it in so I didn't really bother focusing on groups, but it was under an inch @100yrds otherwise I would have cared. I really doubt it changed anything much, but I will have to go out and shoot some groups the next time I can get to the range. For now, I know it is minute of coyote, and that will work well enough for me on Saturday.

Honestly, if it is shoot @ 1moa I am happy, but I did like the
 
I think that what is concidered an "accurate" rifle comes down to who is shooting it and what it is being used for. I don't punch paper nearly as much as I should, but then again I can't call in, skin or tan a piece of paper. My spare time would rather be spent putting down fur than trying to put 3 rounds in one hole.

If I can shoot relatively close to MOA at 100 yards off my shooting sticks and my hunting stool, than I would consider it an accurate enough rifle for what I am using it for.

If you are practicing with your hunting rifle, than you should do so as you would on a stand. I wouldn't expect many of you haul a bench and a Led Sled to all of your stands. Real world circumstances call for real world practice.
 
Originally Posted By: KingzeroI think that what is concidered an "accurate" rifle comes down to who is shooting it and what it is being used for. I don't punch paper nearly as much as I should, but then again I can't call in, skin or tan a piece of paper. My spare time would rather be spent putting down fur than trying to put 3 rounds in one hole.

If I can shoot relatively close to MOA at 100 yards off my shooting sticks and my hunting stool, than I would consider it an accurate enough rifle for what I am using it for.

If you are practicing with your hunting rifle, than you should do so as you would on a stand. I wouldn't expect many of you haul a bench and a Led Sled to all of your stands. Real world circumstances call for real world practice.

+1
 
Originally Posted By: BOBTAILSOriginally Posted By: KingzeroI think that what is concidered an "accurate" rifle comes down to who is shooting it and what it is being used for. I don't punch paper nearly as much as I should, but then again I can't call in, skin or tan a piece of paper. My spare time would rather be spent putting down fur than trying to put 3 rounds in one hole.

If I can shoot relatively close to MOA at 100 yards off my shooting sticks and my hunting stool, than I would consider it an accurate enough rifle for what I am using it for.

If you are practicing with your hunting rifle, than you should do so as you would on a stand. I wouldn't expect many of you haul a bench and a Led Sled to all of your stands. Real world circumstances call for real world practice.

+1

+2...more or less


I develop loads of a bench, with good a rest. Then play with real world scenarios to make sure I have field accuracy. There is a large difference! But I have yet to see an in-accurate bench load shoot well from bi-pod or sticks. As well as I have not seen good bench loads shoot drastically worse off of bi-pod/sticks!
 
I know a number of guys who might shoot twenty groups averaging 1 1/2". Our of those twenty groups one lucky group shot 1/2", but that's the one group they carry around in the wallet or post on the nest showing just how accurate they gun shoots EVERY time!

On another varmint forum we were talking about accuracy when a real smart guy (or big liar) made this comment to me "no offence..But you do not have a clue about firearms an accuracy. most folks can not shoot a .5 with any rifle given them." Personally, I've yet to see it.
 
Originally Posted By: RONINFLAGmy 6ppc sako is accurate. killed a coyote at 2.7 yards the first time i took it calling. also two more at further distances.


-Like
 
Other than in prone position with bi-pods, most rifles today (I had a Winchester that couldn’t hit a 8.5”x11” piece of paper) shoot WAY better than most guys ability in field positions. So yeah, about any rifle is “accurate enough”. From a set of sticks, MOA is VERY good (ask the guys at the Predator Masters egg shoot, it’s @ 150yards, equates very close to 1 MOA). I think when you’re talking about accuracy of a rifle, it’s from a very good support & the best that rifle can do. Accuracy in the field ( “a really good shot”) is much more the shooter & a different topic.


Lots of other good comments made too. This may be my favorite:

Originally Posted By: JerrySchmitt
As rifles and scopes improved, groups got smaller and shooters shot at greater distance. The internet came along and more people began to expand their limits and abilities. Some found that it was much easier to become an internet expert than to actually spend hours on the range or dog town and accuracy took a giant leap in the process.


I think the internet really has created a lot of misconceptions. Guys want to post the groups shot that are really good (not much fun bragging on average). However, they don’t add to say that this is abnormal. Or maybe they don’t know? Then later when someone else wants to brag on their rifle, not to be outdone or called out on a forum; they make excuses why it wasn’t better (shot in 75mph wind, off a piece of corn, during an earthquake, I pulled that ½” away flyer at 600 yards or all the bullets would have been all touching) when it was really just a fluke to start with. After seeing all these spectacular groups/shooting, the population starts to believe this is the norm or the average.

How many guys remember the best group they ever shot…? Those are memorable. Now how about the worst (with the load you chose)? It’s often easy to forget that bad flyer, or write it off. When guys say their $300 rifle with a warped stock & bad nick in the crown shoots ¼” groups at 100 yards EVERYTIME, they are a bit out of reality, but may REALLY believe what he is saying because that’s how “the rifle is supposed to shoot”, the internet says so.

I have no doubt that many of the WOW groups posted are true, even the ones claimed by mass produced rifles & AR-15’s. The misconception lies in the guys think that that rifle (or every rifle out there like it) is consistently capable of that wallet group. If you shoot enough, the planets will align & get a spectacular print. What the typical accuracy & what can be expected of the rifle may be totally different.

To me accuracy is determined by many shots on multiple sessions. As skinney touched on, some days click & some days don’t. Anyone who has ever shot a lot, trying for those itty bitty holes, knows one can become very frustrated from day to day or month to month trying to get it to shoot like it did, or like it should. One cluster of bullets means very little.
 
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