Aggh again another rimfire post
- Thread starter Sgt_Mike
- Start date
hunt0168
Well-known member
Silly rimfires make fine blathering subjects, Sarge. Especially during the testing phases. What other firearm can you send hundreds of rounds downrange at hand drawn targets that would make Pablo Picasso smile, and still have enough money left over to buy yourself a Subway Footlong?
They’re fun, challenging, “relatively/comparatively” inexpensive to shoot when compared to centerfires, and make a great practice option.
Norma Tac-22 subs are great shooters in a couple of my guns, and yes, they’re completely covered in greasy lube from rim to tip.
I’ve always had good luck with CCI. Aguila has proven worthy and Norma as well. Federal Champion has been decent.
I have never had luck with any Winchester offerings. And anything that Remington offers now just seem to be inconsistent and very dirty. I remember Remington Target and even Thunderbolts holding their own back in the 80’s, but not anymore IMO.
I do want to try Armscor 22lr. I’ve never shot the lr, but their 22WMR shoots fantastic out of my Marlin 882.
Anyway, blather on Sarge. I’ll read whatever you’re writing about.
Sgt_Mike
Well-known member
Glad to hear that I'm not being a bore with the topic as I started this as a suppressor post, which it will in the next 6 to ??? months? Turn into provided the Lord & ATF is willing to allow a "proceed" with the acquisition. With a focus on POI shift and ability of the groups vs the "naked" base gun once it is ironed out.
Federal Auto Match has performed the best in my past Ruger 10/22 (which the Son has LOL). And is a candidate as well I have considered it, my experience is that is a affordable good quality ammo for consideration. Just as Alf pointed out, my results with 10/22 is that that usually is the overall best choice as Alf clearly mentioned.
I actually had overlooked the actual group size of the CCI "Select", which Hm1996 pointed out. Oh well, I was just to focused on the "hits" with the gopher outline and the extreme spread of the group is all I can say is why. Happens even to the best of us I guess, Had I actually Looked longer at the targets, I might have seen it, although I did at the bench at first.
Action screw torque vs ammo quality is a fine line to balance, I've chased this in the past albeit almost 20 years ago. It will drive a person crazy at times attempting to tune. I do know the absolute best way is to select a ammo brand first, then try the torque value for at least x2 outings for validation. Yes I know I'm rushing it. I also know that I "could" use a shortcut to get there with a tuner, why not? Cost, and being somewhat specialized toward competition shooting although today's upcoming are using the competition scene accuracy tips far more than the past. (convention wisdom says wood stock 20 to 35 inch lbs, with a alum/steel bedding up toward as high as 65 inch lbs is possible)
On the CCI offerings there is one that caught my attention, "Clean" but the boys from Idaho have this in at least two differing options (velocity wise, Hyper @1550 fps, and regular @ 1070 fps ), geared toward suppressor usage.
Instead of actually using lube over a lead bullet they are using a poly coating. Not a novel /new idea. The big marketing idea is to allow more shots before having to clean the suppressor used on a 22LR. I have in the past played with poly coating on cast but not in the 22 bore size, what I did play with did do well accuracy wise although my focus wasn't suppressors at the time. But leading was better (less) in the bore resulting in a cleaner bore. Now will this be a fact IDK until I try it. Could it skirt around the "lube" issue we are discussing? Maybe, again just takes trying it. Which is stupidly easy the closest gun shop has this (the 1070 fps version) on the shelf in 100 round box.
Green tag has shot well in the past, so has the stingers in "some" with it's 1600 fps, Stinger only have one draw back, although ballistic wise they are great, supersonic crack. I may have to go that route if the performance is there regardless of my preconceived assumptions.
As I've mentioned this supposed to be a relatively low budget, just to shoot vermin/varmints without having to do a lot of work, minute of PD/gopher. And to do so quietly enough that the targets don't go scampering off when the first shot goes off.
I have to keep typing this to remind myself of the objective and not dive into a high precision concept.
Federal Auto Match has performed the best in my past Ruger 10/22 (which the Son has LOL). And is a candidate as well I have considered it, my experience is that is a affordable good quality ammo for consideration. Just as Alf pointed out, my results with 10/22 is that that usually is the overall best choice as Alf clearly mentioned.
I actually had overlooked the actual group size of the CCI "Select", which Hm1996 pointed out. Oh well, I was just to focused on the "hits" with the gopher outline and the extreme spread of the group is all I can say is why. Happens even to the best of us I guess, Had I actually Looked longer at the targets, I might have seen it, although I did at the bench at first.
Action screw torque vs ammo quality is a fine line to balance, I've chased this in the past albeit almost 20 years ago. It will drive a person crazy at times attempting to tune. I do know the absolute best way is to select a ammo brand first, then try the torque value for at least x2 outings for validation. Yes I know I'm rushing it. I also know that I "could" use a shortcut to get there with a tuner, why not? Cost, and being somewhat specialized toward competition shooting although today's upcoming are using the competition scene accuracy tips far more than the past. (convention wisdom says wood stock 20 to 35 inch lbs, with a alum/steel bedding up toward as high as 65 inch lbs is possible)
On the CCI offerings there is one that caught my attention, "Clean" but the boys from Idaho have this in at least two differing options (velocity wise, Hyper @1550 fps, and regular @ 1070 fps ), geared toward suppressor usage.
Instead of actually using lube over a lead bullet they are using a poly coating. Not a novel /new idea. The big marketing idea is to allow more shots before having to clean the suppressor used on a 22LR. I have in the past played with poly coating on cast but not in the 22 bore size, what I did play with did do well accuracy wise although my focus wasn't suppressors at the time. But leading was better (less) in the bore resulting in a cleaner bore. Now will this be a fact IDK until I try it. Could it skirt around the "lube" issue we are discussing? Maybe, again just takes trying it. Which is stupidly easy the closest gun shop has this (the 1070 fps version) on the shelf in 100 round box.
Green tag has shot well in the past, so has the stingers in "some" with it's 1600 fps, Stinger only have one draw back, although ballistic wise they are great, supersonic crack. I may have to go that route if the performance is there regardless of my preconceived assumptions.
As I've mentioned this supposed to be a relatively low budget, just to shoot vermin/varmints without having to do a lot of work, minute of PD/gopher. And to do so quietly enough that the targets don't go scampering off when the first shot goes off.
I have to keep typing this to remind myself of the objective and not dive into a high precision concept.
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Sgt_Mike
Well-known member
Picked up a box of the newer CCI "clean -22" sub sonic Polymer rounds. And the range isn't open until Wednesday,
I asked about a accuracy "guarantee", before buying Yep the girl replied .228" extreme spread regardless of shot group size. At 0.250" from the muzzle. LMAO... ( between the two of us we dreamed up that "guarantee" as something to laugh at.)
Checked on currant stockage of the listed cans above in a earlier post.
Zero on hand on the sparrow, Zero on hand with Jessie's Girl, 2- deadair mask, 2 - of the JK armaments' (does he have more inbound - yes on back order). asked about the number he has in the safe waiting in hold (paid for in full) for on January 2nd processing schedule. Over 300 in just suppressors in this one shop, I would suspect that this will be the norm baseline across the board. I have a suspicion, of 6 months or longer after a February / March submission. Let's hope I'm wrong on this. But it is a expectation management thought process on my part.
I asked about a accuracy "guarantee", before buying Yep the girl replied .228" extreme spread regardless of shot group size. At 0.250" from the muzzle. LMAO... ( between the two of us we dreamed up that "guarantee" as something to laugh at.)
Checked on currant stockage of the listed cans above in a earlier post.
Zero on hand on the sparrow, Zero on hand with Jessie's Girl, 2- deadair mask, 2 - of the JK armaments' (does he have more inbound - yes on back order). asked about the number he has in the safe waiting in hold (paid for in full) for on January 2nd processing schedule. Over 300 in just suppressors in this one shop, I would suspect that this will be the norm baseline across the board. I have a suspicion, of 6 months or longer after a February / March submission. Let's hope I'm wrong on this. But it is a expectation management thought process on my part.
What a joy to find a clerk that knows anything about bore diameter of the products they sell....at least it would be in this neck of the woods.If that ammo doesn't live up to the guarantee, Sarge, I have a patent on the Group Tightener shown below and will be happy to sell you one for a good price.
Sgt_Mike
Well-known member
I NEED that ... LMAO LOVE the post !!!
now on a actual serious note I dumped some of the clean-22 rounds out. I was thinking that they "should" be coated, swaged then loaded ... does not appear to be the case.
on appearance they look to be dipped, while loaded ... see photo
without going through the whole box that one was the only one I noted with a run ... just be a fouler. If I get bored before Wednesday, at the VA tomorrow I might go through the box. doubtful but possible. (ohh yeah I've not changed anything on the rifle since my last outing, and won't until I fire some of these, but will pit the "select" against the "clean" on the next outing.)
should be fun ... lol we know what blue pills do for old men........
As a side note I'm debating trying a particular can that I do have, although it's not a "rimfire" can. It is heavy 9mm bore size, user serviceable, it's a huntertown Krestel 9. Rated for up to 308 win. I figure ya'll will let me know your opinion on that. I'm sort of /mainly dismissing the idea, but it would work to a degree I think. what's the thought of the collective?
now on a actual serious note I dumped some of the clean-22 rounds out. I was thinking that they "should" be coated, swaged then loaded ... does not appear to be the case.
on appearance they look to be dipped, while loaded ... see photo
without going through the whole box that one was the only one I noted with a run ... just be a fouler. If I get bored before Wednesday, at the VA tomorrow I might go through the box. doubtful but possible. (ohh yeah I've not changed anything on the rifle since my last outing, and won't until I fire some of these, but will pit the "select" against the "clean" on the next outing.)
should be fun ... lol we know what blue pills do for old men........
As a side note I'm debating trying a particular can that I do have, although it's not a "rimfire" can. It is heavy 9mm bore size, user serviceable, it's a huntertown Krestel 9. Rated for up to 308 win. I figure ya'll will let me know your opinion on that. I'm sort of /mainly dismissing the idea, but it would work to a degree I think. what's the thought of the collective?
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Sgt_Mike
Well-known member
Well I conned Ed into firing during the heat of the day.....
I asked him if he wanted to shoot the Huntertown krestel 9mm can......
He pulled the trigger click......spat when the round hit... he sat there for a bit looking unbelieving the quietness and remarked the shot hit low 2" I laughed and said no wonder that all stainless steel can is 5 times as heavy as the Sparrows we are looking at. so yeah it's going to droop the pencil thin barrel...... He sat there looking at a fired 22 LR case sayin over and over " man that is quiet, I can't believe how quiet that is"
(I didn't get the can back for a good hour or more)
Once he moved his target to 75 yards .. and completed sighting in... I asked him to try some of the Winchester T-22's I had explained that they would not shoot in mine. He did and they just drove Tacks. I replied good you want the other 3 boxes I have of them he just sat there. Me already knowing the answer as I was fishing them out the ammo can...
"Oooops Ed I lied there is 5 more boxes Here they are yours" needless to say he promptly squirreled those away for next year's trip.
Here is my rifle with that Heavyy huge Krestel 9mm can on it.
I had seen that CCI had a sorta new "defensive" round called CCI Undercut, optimized for pistol (36gr actual jacketed rimfire bullet). Seen a video of a gentleman shooting them from a rifle, and his was in the video just stacking them into a tight cloverleaf.
So yesterday Hmmm says I well I'm going to Little Rock VA for a appointment so I can stop by Bass Pro (according to their website they had them) get there nope,,, even though their system said yes. The Gun counter guy was kind enough to call a shop right up the road from him. Up the road I go and soon am putting two 50 round boxes in the truck.
Now I haven't cleaned the rifle since the last outing and absolutely changed Nothing. So I loaded the first round fired a "fouler"
and shot a 9 round group. Then realized "Crap" I left my rear bag at the house... so I was forced to use my off hand to support..
Man I hate using my off hand this way ... always see my heartbeat when I shoot
THEN the Idea as I'm mentally fussing HEY dummy what about your Gortex jacket in the truck
Off I scamper.
OK 40 rounds down the tube.. That last group yeah got caught by the wind again oh well
time to try the "poly" coated "Clean-22 subsonic" Blue pills...
Ok starting in the right direction...
yep improving
Ok two groups holding 1-3/4" ok..
DANG IT the crosswind caught me again..... otherwise another / possible 1-3/4" group.
NOW what happened next absolutely knocked my socks off. Wasn't expecting this at all. But once it happened I knew what had happened.
If you have ever fired cast loads (and 22 rimfire is exactly that) until accuracy falls off from leading of the bore you can clean and fire 20 or so rounds of Jacketed round to actually pull the lead from the bore. Otherwise spend hours getting the lead beat back with a brush. Seeing how I had not picked up any more CCI "Select" I was limited so I decided to fire two groups of 10 with it.
I asked him if he wanted to shoot the Huntertown krestel 9mm can......
He pulled the trigger click......spat when the round hit... he sat there for a bit looking unbelieving the quietness and remarked the shot hit low 2" I laughed and said no wonder that all stainless steel can is 5 times as heavy as the Sparrows we are looking at. so yeah it's going to droop the pencil thin barrel...... He sat there looking at a fired 22 LR case sayin over and over " man that is quiet, I can't believe how quiet that is"
(I didn't get the can back for a good hour or more)
Once he moved his target to 75 yards .. and completed sighting in... I asked him to try some of the Winchester T-22's I had explained that they would not shoot in mine. He did and they just drove Tacks. I replied good you want the other 3 boxes I have of them he just sat there. Me already knowing the answer as I was fishing them out the ammo can...
"Oooops Ed I lied there is 5 more boxes Here they are yours" needless to say he promptly squirreled those away for next year's trip.
Here is my rifle with that Heavyy huge Krestel 9mm can on it.
I had seen that CCI had a sorta new "defensive" round called CCI Undercut, optimized for pistol (36gr actual jacketed rimfire bullet). Seen a video of a gentleman shooting them from a rifle, and his was in the video just stacking them into a tight cloverleaf.
So yesterday Hmmm says I well I'm going to Little Rock VA for a appointment so I can stop by Bass Pro (according to their website they had them) get there nope,,, even though their system said yes. The Gun counter guy was kind enough to call a shop right up the road from him. Up the road I go and soon am putting two 50 round boxes in the truck.
Now I haven't cleaned the rifle since the last outing and absolutely changed Nothing. So I loaded the first round fired a "fouler"
and shot a 9 round group. Then realized "Crap" I left my rear bag at the house... so I was forced to use my off hand to support..
Man I hate using my off hand this way ... always see my heartbeat when I shoot
THEN the Idea as I'm mentally fussing HEY dummy what about your Gortex jacket in the truck
Off I scamper.
OK 40 rounds down the tube.. That last group yeah got caught by the wind again oh well
time to try the "poly" coated "Clean-22 subsonic" Blue pills...
Ok starting in the right direction...
yep improving
Ok two groups holding 1-3/4" ok..
DANG IT the crosswind caught me again..... otherwise another / possible 1-3/4" group.
NOW what happened next absolutely knocked my socks off. Wasn't expecting this at all. But once it happened I knew what had happened.
If you have ever fired cast loads (and 22 rimfire is exactly that) until accuracy falls off from leading of the bore you can clean and fire 20 or so rounds of Jacketed round to actually pull the lead from the bore. Otherwise spend hours getting the lead beat back with a brush. Seeing how I had not picked up any more CCI "Select" I was limited so I decided to fire two groups of 10 with it.
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Sgt_Mike
Well-known member
top of target this way / direction >>>> phone rotated the photos for all on this post 90 degrees IDK why??
BIG light bulb .. hey dummy you cleaned the bore with the jacketed and basically polished it with the poly coated!!!
So I broke out the CCI standard again .....
Yep I can defiantly get along with those....
CCI "Select" and "Standard Velocity", the edge goes to "select", make resupply so much easier now.....
Now Ed had a 2" drop with the over weight over sized massive can on his 16.5" barrel win 121 ........ hmmm mine with my barrel longer would it hold the same ?????
only one way to find out.....
HAHA ... nope little over 3 inch drop with the extra length of 3 more inches of barrel than his (for some reason my phone rotated the target the two red dot are actually located at the top of the target when properly orientated).
MAN that can is heavy... tomorrow I guess I'll clean out the 200 + he took /shots and my 20 shots of lead / residue out of it. To try it out, to see how much my longer barrel would drop, I finally said laughing "dang it Ed give my can back for 20 shots, and I'll let you have it back" he did, and I did, he was having a blast with it (every once in awhile he would just giggle).
Now why did I try this?? Well Ed whom I've been trying to convert to suppressors had fired my Omega 300 on his 5.56 AR. but the light switch really turned on when he fired his 22 with a suppressor (click.. spat click... spat vs the sound baffle at the range with supersonic crack from the AR that is way loader than when shot any other place, which he never did) .
I did tell him that the round would drop because of the weight of the can... Then when I told him that the cans we are looking at will be as, if not more quiet with a rimfire can. With extremely little POI shift... yeah he is sold..... The good thing is this Huntertown can be taken down and cleaned the rest of my cans are sealed so yeah I will not fire a Rimfire at all through them .. The Huntertown Krestel 9 ( 9mm bore rated to 308 win) was for any cast loads I wanted to shoot and serves as a "loaner" can when hunting. And it is the loudest of all the cans when shooting centerfire anything. The Omega 300 and the Otter Creek Polonium in 5.56mm, and the Yankee Hill Wraith XL in 45 (designed for subguns), will stomp it for sound suppression.
I might have caused him to catch the "addiction" ...
Added later:
another aspect of this is also answers the question " Can I shoot 22 LR through a XXXXX user serviceable non rimfire / centerfire can?" answer yes, but if the can is sealed my answer is NO!!!!!
If one actually reads that last picture (two groups side by side) it tells a very interesting story, the extra weight of a centerfire can will cause it to have a POI shift low by a LOT.
Now the big weight on the end of the muzzle did create a vertical stringing. Rightfully so as the harmonics of the barrel is totally askew. And yes if one just have to shoot that type of can one "might" be able to have rimfire "barrel tuner" installed to counter act the vertical stringing. Which would be silly in my opinion as the cost of the tuner and installation behind the can threaded muzzle would exceed by a considerable amount than to use a proper rimfire can will cost you .
("penny wise dollar stupid", phrase comes to mind here, IMHO)
Now if the "tuner" was installed for the sake of tightening up groups for benchrest, or competitive purposes, then it's not silly, rather a "have to have" in order to be competitive.
But to shoot gophers and PD while walking this is all that I need it to do. Outside the "proper" rimfire can purchase, the "trainer" Winchester 121 is ready.
BIG light bulb .. hey dummy you cleaned the bore with the jacketed and basically polished it with the poly coated!!!
So I broke out the CCI standard again .....
Yep I can defiantly get along with those....
CCI "Select" and "Standard Velocity", the edge goes to "select", make resupply so much easier now.....
Now Ed had a 2" drop with the over weight over sized massive can on his 16.5" barrel win 121 ........ hmmm mine with my barrel longer would it hold the same ?????
only one way to find out.....
HAHA ... nope little over 3 inch drop with the extra length of 3 more inches of barrel than his (for some reason my phone rotated the target the two red dot are actually located at the top of the target when properly orientated).
MAN that can is heavy... tomorrow I guess I'll clean out the 200 + he took /shots and my 20 shots of lead / residue out of it. To try it out, to see how much my longer barrel would drop, I finally said laughing "dang it Ed give my can back for 20 shots, and I'll let you have it back" he did, and I did, he was having a blast with it (every once in awhile he would just giggle).
Now why did I try this?? Well Ed whom I've been trying to convert to suppressors had fired my Omega 300 on his 5.56 AR. but the light switch really turned on when he fired his 22 with a suppressor (click.. spat click... spat vs the sound baffle at the range with supersonic crack from the AR that is way loader than when shot any other place, which he never did) .
I did tell him that the round would drop because of the weight of the can... Then when I told him that the cans we are looking at will be as, if not more quiet with a rimfire can. With extremely little POI shift... yeah he is sold..... The good thing is this Huntertown can be taken down and cleaned the rest of my cans are sealed so yeah I will not fire a Rimfire at all through them .. The Huntertown Krestel 9 ( 9mm bore rated to 308 win) was for any cast loads I wanted to shoot and serves as a "loaner" can when hunting. And it is the loudest of all the cans when shooting centerfire anything. The Omega 300 and the Otter Creek Polonium in 5.56mm, and the Yankee Hill Wraith XL in 45 (designed for subguns), will stomp it for sound suppression.
I might have caused him to catch the "addiction" ...
Added later:
another aspect of this is also answers the question " Can I shoot 22 LR through a XXXXX user serviceable non rimfire / centerfire can?" answer yes, but if the can is sealed my answer is NO!!!!!
If one actually reads that last picture (two groups side by side) it tells a very interesting story, the extra weight of a centerfire can will cause it to have a POI shift low by a LOT.
Now the big weight on the end of the muzzle did create a vertical stringing. Rightfully so as the harmonics of the barrel is totally askew. And yes if one just have to shoot that type of can one "might" be able to have rimfire "barrel tuner" installed to counter act the vertical stringing. Which would be silly in my opinion as the cost of the tuner and installation behind the can threaded muzzle would exceed by a considerable amount than to use a proper rimfire can will cost you .
("penny wise dollar stupid", phrase comes to mind here, IMHO)
Now if the "tuner" was installed for the sake of tightening up groups for benchrest, or competitive purposes, then it's not silly, rather a "have to have" in order to be competitive.
But to shoot gophers and PD while walking this is all that I need it to do. Outside the "proper" rimfire can purchase, the "trainer" Winchester 121 is ready.
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