An Honest Hearted Question About Wolves And Elk/Deer

CalCoyote

CalCoyote

Member
First of all let me state that I believe the wolf reintroduction is a train wreck and out of control. I have seen enough evidence to make me believe that wolves engage in sport killing rather than just killing what they eat. I also believe that dark days are ahead for NW Wyoming, SW Montana and Idaho if something does not change. Our Dept of Wildlife here in Oregon has even confirmed a breeding pack that has now moved into NE Oregon. I am not happy.

However, here is my question:

If wolves are decimating the elk and deer population here in the North due to the re-introduction, then why has the same not happened in Canada where they have been roaming free for centuries? To my knowledge the Canadian Rockies have great elk/deer populations and attract hunters from all over the world. So then, why is it different south of the border here in the USA?


Please don't misunderstand me. I am not wanting to debate. I am not some closet liberal tree hugging animal rights idiot that wants to take away hunter's privileges. I just want an answer. What is done differently in Canada?


ps: As soon as funds are available, my desire is to go to Canada on a wolf hunt and "help" them out a little bit in controlling their predator population.
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That's a great question. I don't have an answer for it, just a guess. That would be the wolves are hunted there, controlling their numbers and dispersing them to a wider range.

I've never been to Canada but on a map it looks bigger and probably not as populated per square mile like the US so the deer, elk and wolves have more room to roam. Key
 
Canada has wolf trapping and hunting licenses, and I don't believe there is a limit to the number of licenses available. There are areas that the wolf has had a devastating effect on caribou. I'm sure if you look you'll find referance to the killing of moose.
 
I have often heard that the wolves reintroduced,,are hybrids of some sort,,with alot of relation to raised hybrid wolf,,I am unsure of the amount of "wild" in them,,but i do know that dogs in general when they pack up and become feral,,will do alot of "sport" killing..Locally to me the packs of wild dogs had bounties in the mid 80s they had killed alot of stock and let it lay..I am thinking a specialist on discovery channel had commented on the fact that these hybrid wolves would hunt/kill differently than northern wolves,,,hope this helps....X
 
It has to do with exactly what Nmelon said. Population has a ton to do with it. Go look at the states in mention, they have massive human populations that have forced game animals to be more concentrated and easier targets. We do not have the open land and mass amounts feed, etc. That can be found north of us. As winter hits animals become more and more concentrated.

Also do not fool your self all western states will loose form this. They will take most of CO, Utah as well. They will also take parts of Or, Wa and the great liberal state of Cali. It is only a matter of time. NW CO (home of the largest elk herd) will be screwed up fast once we get a breeding pair.
 
There's a bit more to it as well.
Florida has a problem with large pythons and are obviously worried about the native animals with very good cause. But overseas where the snake is imported from it's not an issue.

Why?

Because the native wildlife has adjusted to them as predators, formed defenses and live more or less in balance with them.

The bunny huggers will of course argue that wolves are natural predators so what's the problem? Well we all used to hang out in trees all day and eat sticks, but throw the bunny hugger in the woods and let's see how the 'ancestral memory' thing helps out with your survival.

Ttodays large game have no concept of what a wolf is or how it hunts. They are now a non-native predator being introduced into a target rich environment where they don't have to hunt for survival, they can hunt for fun.

In a couple hundred years there will once again be 'balance' when the food supply drops to the point that it can't support a large number of predators and packs will starve and die.


And since I'm a grammar nazi, 'decimate' means to kill 1 in 10, not how it's often used
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Originally Posted By: NdIndyAnd since I'm a grammar nazi, 'decimate' means to kill 1 in 10, not how it's often used
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I'm kind of a grammar nazi myself and did not know that, so I had to do a quick search. You're correct, at least for decimate's original use. Like many other commonly used words though, the original meaning gets "revised" over time. Thanks for the info!
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From dictionary.com:
Quote:–verb (used with object),-mat·ed, -mat·ing.
1.to destroy a great number or proportion of: The population was decimated by a plague.
2.to select by lot and kill every tenth person of.
3.Obsolete. to take a tenth of or from.
—Usage note
The earliest English sense of decimate is “to select by lot and execute every tenth soldier of (a unit).” The extended sense “destroy a great number or proportion of” developed in the 19th century: Cholera decimated the urban population. Because the etymological sense of one-tenth remains to some extent, decimate is not ordinarily used with exact fractions or percentages: Drought has destroyed (not decimated) nearly 80 percent of the cattle.
 
Originally Posted By: NdIndyThere's a bit more to it as well.
Florida has a problem with large pythons and are obviously worried about the native animals with very good cause. But overseas where the snake is imported from it's not an issue.

Why?

Because the native wildlife has adjusted to them as predators, formed defenses and live more or less in balance with them.

The bunny huggers will of course argue that wolves are natural predators so what's the problem? Well we all used to hang out in trees all day and eat sticks, but throw the bunny hugger in the woods and let's see how the 'ancestral memory' thing helps out with your survival.

Ttodays large game have no concept of what a wolf is or how it hunts. They are now a non-native predator being introduced into a target rich environment where they don't have to hunt for survival, they can hunt for fun.

In a couple hundred years there will once again be 'balance' when the food supply drops to the point that it can't support a large number of predators and packs will starve and die.


And since I'm a grammar nazi, 'decimate' means to kill 1 in 10, not how it's often used
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That makes a lot of sense. I had not considered the change in behavior that an elk/deer must have to live in a habitat with wolves.

This actually brings a whole different question that could be its own thread: What different tactics would the hunter need to use to be successful hunting the more "predator savy" big game of the North. I wonder if still hunting a six point bull in Canada would be any different than say Colorado/Utah where the behavior is not affected by the presence of wolves.

NMLEON, also has a point about population density.


btw: I did consult Webster Dictionary and the third meaning for decimate is:
3 a : to reduce drastically especially in number b : to cause great destruction or harm to.

but alas, the primary definition is:
to select by lot and kill every tenth man of

so I guess this means that you are right.
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The word originated in the year 1660.
 
Wolves that were native to the Americas were probably different from the introduced species. I am not near where the wolves are, but would think their numbers need to be controled. Look at the non native species causing trouble in America, Pigs, Carp, "wild" horses, just to name a few. Don't get me started on the catfish and crappie streams that have been dammed and stocked with trout!!!
 
The wolves that are native here in Alaska are open to hunting and trapping with unlimited numbers in certain areas. Hunters and trappers really only take a small number though, compared to other factors that kill them. They do however naturally wipe out numbers of large game animals, moose and caribou in particular. The state, in an effort to control the wolf numbers open up aerial hunts to try and thin the numbers down so big game numbers can come back up. The animal rights people seem to always get that one confused with "hunting", when in fact it is wildlife management. The wild wolves here will kill for "sport" and it's been very accurately documented, so the hybrid factor isn't necessarily the reason for "sport" killing. They're wolves, they're killing machines and kill whatever they can get. Of course the young and weak are the first to go since they're the easier targets followed by the healthy. Any animal rights person who thinks they kill the weak and lame needs to explain why a healthy human adult was killed up here a month ago while jogging. They're animals of opportunity, just like any predator, plain and simple. Once they wipe out animals in a specific area, they'll just expand the range to find more game.
 
Quote:I have often heard that the wolves reintroduced,,are hybrids of some sort,,with alot of relation to raised hybrid wolf,,I am unsure of the amount of "wild" in them,,but i do know that dogs in general when they pack up and become feral,,will do alot of "sport" killing..Locally to me the packs of wild dogs had bounties in the mid 80s they had killed alot of stock and let it lay..I am thinking a specialist on discovery channel had commented on the fact that these hybrid wolves would hunt/kill differently than northern wolves,,,hope this helps....X

Here's link to the wolves used in the relocation process. wolves routinely travel upwards of 350 miles to colonize other areas and look for mates. The so called Canadian wolf had colonized much of Montana by the time the relocation efforts took place. As far as Hwy 200 which passes through the town of Missoula, no relocation took place. Those trans located on their own.

wolf capture info

The big thing with our elk herds in Montana being (DECIMATED) was at the same time the wolves were repopulating, our State Legislature, passed resolutions that the Montana Dept. of Fish Wildlife and Parks, would pick socially acceptable elk population objectives for each hunting district in the state. After that the Legislature passed another resolution that basically stated the MDFW&Ps would get those elk objective levels meet by 2009. Hunting seasons were liberalized, so HD's had 10 week either sex rifle seasons to cull the elk number to those socially accepted levels.

In the Missouri River Breaks country, Elk numbers pre elk objective levels was sitting at 4,000 head. The socially acceptable level was picked at 2000. So the MDFW&P's liberalized the seasons and started culling elk too. We're now sitting at 2700 post season counts in that region a reduction of 30%. They have to reduce the herds even farther, and will keep the liberal seasons until the numbers is at or below 2000. BTW, there's no wolves in the Missouri River breaks area. If there had been, and the elk herd showed a reduction of 30%, people would be scream at he top of their lungs. Hunters are getting the opportunity to cull the herds so there's no outrage.

As the wolf came on in population, so did the liberalized seasons. If one or the other had not taken place, there would be no (decimation) going on. With both the balance tipped. We need to re visit the elk management plan in Montana, and boost some of those elk herd numbers.
 
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4100fps,

You were one the guys that I was hoping would chime in on this.

Originally Posted By: 4100FPS
The big thing with our elk herds in Montana being (DECIMATED) was at the same time the wolves were repopulating, our State Legislature, passed resolutions that the Montana Dept. of Fish Wildlife and Parks, would pick socially acceptable elk population objectives for each hunting district in the state. After that the Legislature passed another resolution that basically stated the MDFW&Ps would get those elk objective levels meet by 2009. Hunting seasons were liberalized, so HD's had 10 week either sex rifle seasons to cull the elk number to those socially accepted levels.

In the Missouri River Breaks country, Elk numbers pre elk objective levels was sitting at 4,000 head. The socially acceptable level was picked at 2000. So the MDFW&P's liberalized the seasons and started culling elk too. We're now sitting at 2700 post season counts in that region a reduction of 30%. They have to reduce the herds even farther, and will keep the liberal seasons until the numbers is at or below 2000. BTW, there's no wolves in the Missouri River breaks area. If there had been, and the elk herd showed a reduction of 30%, people would be scream at he top of their lungs. Hunters are getting the opportunity to cull the herds so there's no outrage.

What was the Montana State legislature's motive for wanting to liberalize the seasons? Increase revenue for tag sales?

What do they mean by "socially acceptable"? Does this mean that wildlife has been encroaching on grazing lands of private land owners?
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Originally Posted By: elksIt has to do with exactly what Nmelon said. Population has a ton to do with it. Go look at the states in mention, they have massive human populations that have forced game animals to be more concentrated and easier targets. We do not have the open land and mass amounts feed, etc. That can be found north of us. As winter hits animals become more and more concentrated.

Also do not fool your self all western states will loose form this. They will take most of CO, Utah as well. They will also take parts of Or, Wa and the great liberal state of Cali. It is only a matter of time. NW CO (home of the largest elk herd) will be screwed up fast once we get a breeding pair.


Not if I have anything to do about it
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I missed this thread some how.

I think in Canada and Alberta specifically there is not the politics involved as much as in the northern U.S.

In Alberta we can hunt wolves year round with no license or tags. We can also bait in some areas. Ranchers often shoot on sight and don't have any paper work to fill out.

Wolves do take a toll on wildlife and livestock. when that happens F/W implements a control program that may mean an extensive trapping plan. Ranchers usually take care of the problem themselves. We don't kill thousands of wolves here but they are targeted as well as being collateral on a big game hunt. I've heard of 6 killed in the last week, all targets of opportunity.
 
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