Anyone use a bushing die?
- Thread starter willy1947
- Start date
Like the others have said, Bushing Dies are the way to go for better accuracy. They provide for better concentricty than do your average dies, especially the ones with expander balls. I too use Redding because they provide easier use than do the RCBS because of the adjustment heads that you can turn with your fingers instead of using wrenches. No matter which brand you buy, Bushing Dies are better and more accurate, hence more expensive.
Last edited:
aftCG
New member
For my more accurate rifles I am running Redding bushing dies too.
Way less abuse on the brass than forming down and pulling a spud back up through it.
One caution though, your neck tension becomes a direct function of your wall thickness in the neck. You may need to neck turn to get good results.
Way less abuse on the brass than forming down and pulling a spud back up through it.
One caution though, your neck tension becomes a direct function of your wall thickness in the neck. You may need to neck turn to get good results.
knockemdown
New member
I only bother using bushing dies on cartridges where I neck turn the brass to a uniform & consistent thickness. Otherwise, I don't see the benefit?
ryutzy
New member
Knockemdown---apparantly you do not know what the advantages of bushing dies. Bushing dies allow you to adjust neck tension to how your rifle likes them as well as work the brass less to save its working life if you choose the correct bushing. Bushings provide an accuracy benefit and brass life whether or not you neck turn. I use them for all my brass, turned and unturned. I recieve better accuracy than my old dies that I had used before. I use about about .003 neck tension in my guns, but for my AR I use a lil more.
knockemdown
New member
Yep, apparently not.
But , I'll repeat and expound on my initial post.
I only employ the use of bushing dies in rifles that I take the extra step to turn necks for. Some are 'tight neck' chambers, others are no turn chambers. Regardless, I want to make the most perfect ammo I can for those rifles, and do so with determining & maintaining a consistent neck tension value for each.
The only way to do that (which I've been taught) is to go "full monty" & turn the necks to a uniform thickness BEFORE using a bushing die. Also, I take it one step further and remove the expander ball from the bushing die as well. This has been taught to me by some VERY competent reloaders and here's why they do it...
Using a bushing sizer die on un turned necks is simply pushing inconsistent neck wall thickness to the INSIDE of the neck as it passed through the bushing.
If the expander ball is present, the neck is just gonna "resize" itself again as it runs back over the expander ball on the upstroke. Thereby, pushing that inconsistent neck dimension BACK to the outside.
So, even though you think you are giving your reloads a consistent neck tension, you are actually sizing the necks in & out, squeezing them down & expanding them back. All the while, introducing variables that cause runout which will cause your accuracy to suffer for it. Especially at distance...
Hope that makes sense???
So maybe I might just know a little about the advantage of a bushing die after all???
I'd like to think I do for my rifles, but that's certainly not advantageous for everybody...
But , I'll repeat and expound on my initial post.
I only employ the use of bushing dies in rifles that I take the extra step to turn necks for. Some are 'tight neck' chambers, others are no turn chambers. Regardless, I want to make the most perfect ammo I can for those rifles, and do so with determining & maintaining a consistent neck tension value for each.
The only way to do that (which I've been taught) is to go "full monty" & turn the necks to a uniform thickness BEFORE using a bushing die. Also, I take it one step further and remove the expander ball from the bushing die as well. This has been taught to me by some VERY competent reloaders and here's why they do it...
Using a bushing sizer die on un turned necks is simply pushing inconsistent neck wall thickness to the INSIDE of the neck as it passed through the bushing.
If the expander ball is present, the neck is just gonna "resize" itself again as it runs back over the expander ball on the upstroke. Thereby, pushing that inconsistent neck dimension BACK to the outside.
So, even though you think you are giving your reloads a consistent neck tension, you are actually sizing the necks in & out, squeezing them down & expanding them back. All the while, introducing variables that cause runout which will cause your accuracy to suffer for it. Especially at distance...
Hope that makes sense???
So maybe I might just know a little about the advantage of a bushing die after all???
I'd like to think I do for my rifles, but that's certainly not advantageous for everybody...
lyotehunter
New member
2nd that knockemdown,gotta turn the neck being uniform is the key
Coyotejunki
Well-known member
I use a few Wilson neck dies among the S-Dies too. The Wilson are for my 6mm's with .262 necks, The 17 Rem S-dies are for the 17 Rem I made out of 204 Ruger brass. All those have turned necks. My 6 BR's have .272 necks, but I still use a bushing on them too, a Harrels die I think.
It really surprised me how much a factory FL sizer die sizes the neck on brass before the expander button opens it back up. The 17's were terrible.
It really surprised me how much a factory FL sizer die sizes the neck on brass before the expander button opens it back up. The 17's were terrible.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: RBoomOriginally Posted By: lyotehunter2nd 3rd that knockemdown,gotta turn the neck being uniform is the key
Totally agree. Bushing dies provide no benefit unless you have uniform neck wall thickness.
Not at all true - many benchrest rifles now use "No turn" necks... and they use bushing dies.
So if what you say is true, how is that???
Totally agree. Bushing dies provide no benefit unless you have uniform neck wall thickness.
Not at all true - many benchrest rifles now use "No turn" necks... and they use bushing dies.
So if what you say is true, how is that???
CatShooter
New member
The bushing die allows you to size the neck exactly to the needed diameter - the standard die sizes the neck far too much, and then the expander ball enlarges it - the neck gets work hardened and splits. The bushing has NOTHING to do with accuracy in the standard bushing die.
knockemdown
New member
I use Bushing dies for three rifles, two are 'no turn' chambers. I choose to neck turn brass for those two rifles due to the fact that the brass I'm using isn't as consistent in neck wall thickness as I'd like. So I shave a bit off, til I get nice true necks, then choose a bushing according to how much tension I wanna run.
Quote:The bushing has NOTHING to do with accuracy in the standard bushing die
Right, but how it pushes inconsistent neck thickness to the inside of the neck sure does. The bushing itself ain't the fuel for the fire, but it is the catalyst IF those necks ain't true!
And if that's not the case (pun there), then how does a bushing die alone somehow negate or erase inconsistent neck thickness (tension) or runout introduced during the resizing process? IE, how does using a bushing die alone make reloads MORE accurate???
After all, isn't accuracy ultimately the manifestation of using the most concentric ammo, loaded to the most accurate 'node' at the most 'ideal' seating depth held by the most consistent neck tension, to be shot from a given platform?
If the brass itself is inconsistent, then could anyone explain how a friggin' bushing alone is gonna make those necks true without turning them to a consistent diameter?
And how does the presence or absence of the expander ball in the die factor in ???
BTW...
If someone would be so kind as to solicit Lapua to produce a run of match grade 7WSM brass, then pencil me in for 1K pcs. Then I might not have to turn necks anymore for that rifle...
Quote:The bushing has NOTHING to do with accuracy in the standard bushing die
Right, but how it pushes inconsistent neck thickness to the inside of the neck sure does. The bushing itself ain't the fuel for the fire, but it is the catalyst IF those necks ain't true!
And if that's not the case (pun there), then how does a bushing die alone somehow negate or erase inconsistent neck thickness (tension) or runout introduced during the resizing process? IE, how does using a bushing die alone make reloads MORE accurate???
After all, isn't accuracy ultimately the manifestation of using the most concentric ammo, loaded to the most accurate 'node' at the most 'ideal' seating depth held by the most consistent neck tension, to be shot from a given platform?
If the brass itself is inconsistent, then could anyone explain how a friggin' bushing alone is gonna make those necks true without turning them to a consistent diameter?
And how does the presence or absence of the expander ball in the die factor in ???
BTW...
If someone would be so kind as to solicit Lapua to produce a run of match grade 7WSM brass, then pencil me in for 1K pcs. Then I might not have to turn necks anymore for that rifle...
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: knockemdownI use Bushing dies for three rifles, two are 'no turn' chambers. I choose to neck turn brass for those two rifles due to the fact that the brass I'm using isn't as consistent in neck wall thickness as I'd like. So I shave a bit off, til I get nice true necks, then choose a bushing according to how much tension I wanna run.
Quote:The bushing has NOTHING to do with accuracy in the standard bushing die
Right, but how it pushes inconsistent neck thickness to the inside of the neck sure does. The bushing itself ain't the fuel for the fire, but it is the catalyst IF those necks ain't true!
And if that's not the case (pun there), then how does a bushing die alone somehow negate or erase inconsistent neck thickness (tension) or runout introduced during the resizing process? IE, how does using a bushing die alone make reloads MORE accurate???
After all, isn't accuracy ultimately the manifestation of using the most concentric ammo, loaded to the most accurate 'node' at the most 'ideal' seating depth held by the most consistent neck tension, to be shot from a given platform?
If the brass itself is inconsistent, then could anyone explain how a friggin' bushing alone is gonna make those necks true without turning them to a consistent diameter?
And how does the presence or absence of the expander ball in the die factor in ???
In the regular bushing die (i.e. Redding "S" die) the die does not make the neck concentric to the body axis - all you get from that die is the ability to size the neck without expanding it - if you run concentrically tests, the necks will still be off, because the case does NOT touch anything in the die - the bushing might as well be held in a suspended fixture with no die body at all.
To force the case body and the neck to be concentric, you need the "Competition bushing sizing die"... (~$120 to $150-ish) which is a floating chamber that aligns the case body, and then brings the bushing down on the neck, while the case and neck are FORCED into alignment... without this feature, the regular "S" bushing dies do nothing for accuracy.
Quote:BTW...
If someone would be so kind as to solicit Lapua to produce a run of match grade 7WSM brass, then pencil me in for 1K pcs. Then I might not have to turn necks anymore for that rifle...
You are a TRUE optimist
Quote:The bushing has NOTHING to do with accuracy in the standard bushing die
Right, but how it pushes inconsistent neck thickness to the inside of the neck sure does. The bushing itself ain't the fuel for the fire, but it is the catalyst IF those necks ain't true!
And if that's not the case (pun there), then how does a bushing die alone somehow negate or erase inconsistent neck thickness (tension) or runout introduced during the resizing process? IE, how does using a bushing die alone make reloads MORE accurate???
After all, isn't accuracy ultimately the manifestation of using the most concentric ammo, loaded to the most accurate 'node' at the most 'ideal' seating depth held by the most consistent neck tension, to be shot from a given platform?
If the brass itself is inconsistent, then could anyone explain how a friggin' bushing alone is gonna make those necks true without turning them to a consistent diameter?
And how does the presence or absence of the expander ball in the die factor in ???
In the regular bushing die (i.e. Redding "S" die) the die does not make the neck concentric to the body axis - all you get from that die is the ability to size the neck without expanding it - if you run concentrically tests, the necks will still be off, because the case does NOT touch anything in the die - the bushing might as well be held in a suspended fixture with no die body at all.
To force the case body and the neck to be concentric, you need the "Competition bushing sizing die"... (~$120 to $150-ish) which is a floating chamber that aligns the case body, and then brings the bushing down on the neck, while the case and neck are FORCED into alignment... without this feature, the regular "S" bushing dies do nothing for accuracy.
Quote:BTW...
If someone would be so kind as to solicit Lapua to produce a run of match grade 7WSM brass, then pencil me in for 1K pcs. Then I might not have to turn necks anymore for that rifle...
You are a TRUE optimist
Coyote_Hunter_AZ
New member
I neck size only for all of the calibers that I have only one firearm for that caliber. That way, all of the brass is "fire formed" for that firearm.
Why neck size only? Besides not ruining the "fire forming", I'm too lazy to lube the cases.
Why neck size only? Besides not ruining the "fire forming", I'm too lazy to lube the cases.
ryutzy
New member
Knockemdown-- I load as you do for my "good" guns. I shoot a tightneck and a no-turn. I do not use expander balls as they work the brass too much and this is another advantage to using bushing dies. I agree with almost everything you mentioned but you overlooked the fact of neck tension with bushing dies. Most standard dies give excess neck tension which may not be the perfect amount for what your gun likes. I recieved a noticeable accuracy benefit when I went to bushing dies and experimented with neck tension in a gun that I DID NOT turn the necks. I understand what you are saying about uneven neck thickness, but I've had few problems with that maybe because I shoot Lapua and Nosler brass which I feel is more uniform than Hornady etc.....
And as someone else mentioned----most of the custom "no-turn" chamber rifle guys swear by bushing dies and they will play with neck tension. My custom rifle maker instructed me to do so with my no-turn chamber.
And as someone else mentioned----most of the custom "no-turn" chamber rifle guys swear by bushing dies and they will play with neck tension. My custom rifle maker instructed me to do so with my no-turn chamber.