I bought an RCBS case gauge today and when i got home i started to check bullet run-out on some rounds i have loaded. The results were very sporadic. Some would have 2thou and others could have as much as 7thou. I then checked case run=out on my Winchester brass and the average was around 3thou. I dont understand what causes more run-out on one round from another? What causes bullet run=out? Is it the brass the case trimmer, the dies, or all the above? I always take my time and do the best i can when loading. Could it be the inside case mouth chamfer? Like i said some were really good and some were mind benders! What do i need to know about this? By the way the RCBS case gauge is a pain in the neck, I am tempted to take it back and buy a different brand, Need some advise. Thanks Lee
bullet run-out
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
timb
New member
Had a person more learned that me explain run out as the brass being thicker on one side of the neck that the other, thus not aligning the bullet directly in the center of the cartridge.
This person told me to take a loaded round and roll it across a flat surface. If, as it is rolling, the bullet looks like it is 'out of round' so to speak, then you have a significant amount of run out.
He said if it rolled with the bullet looking like it was simply going around without moving up and down, then you were OK.
Hope this helps! (And makes sense)
Tim
This person told me to take a loaded round and roll it across a flat surface. If, as it is rolling, the bullet looks like it is 'out of round' so to speak, then you have a significant amount of run out.
He said if it rolled with the bullet looking like it was simply going around without moving up and down, then you were OK.
Hope this helps! (And makes sense)
Tim
Have to elinate one item at a time.
Start with the brass. Brass wall thickness needs to be consistant. If your brass is 0.001" on one side, die will size it crooked everytime.
Next is the sizing die. Removing the expander ball. Measure the runout on the brass, use a sharpie to indicate the high spot(s), size the case, and check again. Worse or better?
Is it the press? Aligned properly?
Seating die - if the brass is ok after sizing, seat a bullet. Is the runout same, better, worse?
Can be the bullet sometimes as well....
Start with the brass. Brass wall thickness needs to be consistant. If your brass is 0.001" on one side, die will size it crooked everytime.
Next is the sizing die. Removing the expander ball. Measure the runout on the brass, use a sharpie to indicate the high spot(s), size the case, and check again. Worse or better?
Is it the press? Aligned properly?
Seating die - if the brass is ok after sizing, seat a bullet. Is the runout same, better, worse?
Can be the bullet sometimes as well....
Furhunter
New member
If you and your rifle are not capable of benchrest accuracy.......its nothing more than a waste of money. To correct the problem would take even more money and much more time. Your chamber to bore run out is probably in worse shape anyways. Some of these tools on the market will just run you in circles, sweatin every little detail. Then before ya know it, the neck turning starts to correct a problem thats really.....not a problem for an average or even better than average rifle. All this instead of enjoying the past time of reloading and shooting. Perspective is needed......think about .003 thousands of an inch.........the thickness equal to an average blond hair. Return the tool to the store, get your money back in your wallet or spend it on more bullets, powder or primers.
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
Quote:
If you and your rifle are not capable of benchrest accuracy.......its nothing more than a waste of money. To correct the problem would take even more money and much more time. Your chamber to bore run out is probably in worse shape anyways. Some of these tools on the market will just run you in circles, sweatin every little detail. Then before ya know it, the neck turning starts to correct a problem thats really.....not a problem for an average or even better than average rifle. All this instead of enjoying the past time of reloading and shooting. Perspective is needed......think about .003 thousands of an inch.........the thickness equal to an average blond hair. Return the tool to the store, get your money back in your wallet or spend it on more bullets, powder or primers.
Unless you are a top benchrest shooter, it doesen't matter.
Jack
If you and your rifle are not capable of benchrest accuracy.......its nothing more than a waste of money. To correct the problem would take even more money and much more time. Your chamber to bore run out is probably in worse shape anyways. Some of these tools on the market will just run you in circles, sweatin every little detail. Then before ya know it, the neck turning starts to correct a problem thats really.....not a problem for an average or even better than average rifle. All this instead of enjoying the past time of reloading and shooting. Perspective is needed......think about .003 thousands of an inch.........the thickness equal to an average blond hair. Return the tool to the store, get your money back in your wallet or spend it on more bullets, powder or primers.
Unless you are a top benchrest shooter, it doesen't matter.
Jack
I had a good friend on here tell me not to worry about this right now, But what can i say? I am hooked and i love all those gadgets I can play with. I am a shotgun shooting instructor and i should have known better, The more you are thinking about the less you are doing what needs to be done. In shotgunning I teach to my students that the game is 80% mental. I suppose this is true in rifle shooting to an extent as well. I already have a head full of dought ever since i started measuring my loadings with this thing (not good) I am packing this thing back up and taking it back to the store in the morning. I have realised i dot need to be worrying about this kind of stuff. With your help! I should have listened to my friend Paul to begin with. Although i am very competitive i dont see myself shooting rifles in any competitions for quite some time. I still need to work on fundamentals like form and breathing at this time. I know that i am loading descent ammo as it is. I have shot some nice groups with my loadings. Thanks for the help guys, Lee
Depends on the caliber and rifle shot in as well.
I don't own a case gauge tool.
I do however use an outside neck turner, inside flash hole deburring tool .......
.... but the best tool I have for the purpose of loading ammo that's more precise is the Lee Collet die in each of my "accuracy rounds".
Three 44s
I don't own a case gauge tool.
I do however use an outside neck turner, inside flash hole deburring tool .......
.... but the best tool I have for the purpose of loading ammo that's more precise is the Lee Collet die in each of my "accuracy rounds".
Three 44s
Martyn4802
New member
I'm not sure what specific things contribute most to good accuracy, but I think it's a combination of many things; everything associated with excellent accuracy; a good barrel, good bedding, good trigger, good scope, good front and rear rest, and a perfect load, and of course perfect bench techniques by me, the shooter.
As far as the loads go, I do an aweful lot of work getting loads as close to perfect as possible. Case prep is one of the areas I concentrate on. I sort cases by weight, de-burr primer flash holes inside the case, ream primer pockets, and begin with good brass to get the most uniform neck wall thickness, so there is minimun run out there. I use the best primers available, along with bullets and powder that works in a particular rifle, with bullet seating depth that works best too. I throw powder charges light, and trickle up. One thing that I do to get the the least run out for a load is to use Wilson Seaters, or custom made seaters similar to Wilson's, for all rifle cartridges.
Just what part the Wilson Seaters do to get great accuracy, I can't say as I've not done any exhaustive testing to sort that out. But, I'm getting far better, more consistent, groups today than any time prior to doing all of the above.
Shooting from the bench developing loads is done with a 20x scope to eliminate sighting error, and concentrate on the load itself. And, I work very had at my bench technique, to minimize "me" in finding the best load.
For seating bullets with the Wilson Seaters, I use a B-Square arbor press. I think bullet alignment, and having the bullet centered in the chamber and barrel bore helps with my accuracy.
Martyn
As far as the loads go, I do an aweful lot of work getting loads as close to perfect as possible. Case prep is one of the areas I concentrate on. I sort cases by weight, de-burr primer flash holes inside the case, ream primer pockets, and begin with good brass to get the most uniform neck wall thickness, so there is minimun run out there. I use the best primers available, along with bullets and powder that works in a particular rifle, with bullet seating depth that works best too. I throw powder charges light, and trickle up. One thing that I do to get the the least run out for a load is to use Wilson Seaters, or custom made seaters similar to Wilson's, for all rifle cartridges.
Just what part the Wilson Seaters do to get great accuracy, I can't say as I've not done any exhaustive testing to sort that out. But, I'm getting far better, more consistent, groups today than any time prior to doing all of the above.
Shooting from the bench developing loads is done with a 20x scope to eliminate sighting error, and concentrate on the load itself. And, I work very had at my bench technique, to minimize "me" in finding the best load.
For seating bullets with the Wilson Seaters, I use a B-Square arbor press. I think bullet alignment, and having the bullet centered in the chamber and barrel bore helps with my accuracy.
Martyn
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OK here is another question. When i checked My once fired cases for case run out, The cases are better than what they were to begin with. Rifles in subject are. rem 700 260rem and rem 700vssf 223. Does this mean i have a decent chamber on these rifles? Maybe it is case neck thickness giving me the bad readings? Here I go again! I do want everything to be correct as possible, but I also dont want to get ahead of myself at this point in my rifle shooting. So i guess its fair to say, I really dont know what I need to do. Don't worry, or learn and load the best ammo i possibly can? Lee
CatShooter
New member
Quote:
OK here is another question. When i checked My once fired cases for case run out, The cases are better than what they were to begin with. Rifles in subject are. rem 700 260rem and rem 700vssf 223. Does this mean i have a decent chamber on these rifles?
It means that you have a concentric chamber, it does NOT mean that you have a good chamber.
99.5+% of chambers are concentric. This is expected from a factory rifle.
Quote:
Maybe it is case neck thickness giving me the bad readings? Here I go again! I do want everything to be correct as possible, but I also don't want to get ahead of myself at this point in my rifle shooting.
You are getting ahead of yourself. I wish I was your local gunsmith and pieces parts dealer - I could send my son to Harvard (while you filed for chapter 11 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
Quote:
So i guess its fair to say, I really don't know what I need to do.
Yes, that's fair to say /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Quote:
Don't worry, or learn and load the best ammo i possibly can? Lee
Skeets... take a deep breath and relax. This is supposed to be fun.
Meow /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
.
OK here is another question. When i checked My once fired cases for case run out, The cases are better than what they were to begin with. Rifles in subject are. rem 700 260rem and rem 700vssf 223. Does this mean i have a decent chamber on these rifles?
It means that you have a concentric chamber, it does NOT mean that you have a good chamber.
99.5+% of chambers are concentric. This is expected from a factory rifle.
Quote:
Maybe it is case neck thickness giving me the bad readings? Here I go again! I do want everything to be correct as possible, but I also don't want to get ahead of myself at this point in my rifle shooting.
You are getting ahead of yourself. I wish I was your local gunsmith and pieces parts dealer - I could send my son to Harvard (while you filed for chapter 11 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
Quote:
So i guess its fair to say, I really don't know what I need to do.
Yes, that's fair to say /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Quote:
Don't worry, or learn and load the best ammo i possibly can? Lee
Skeets... take a deep breath and relax. This is supposed to be fun.
Meow /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
.
CatShooter
New member
Quote:
Lee If you want a gadget to play with. buy a neck turn tool
and forget about the rest. I think you are worrying about to much.
Mike /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
I will disagree on that.
The neck turning tool is the last tool to get - even in benchrest, many BR chambers now cut with "No turn" necks.
Neck turning will show no improvement in "off the rack" rifles, and invite more problems than it "solves".
I say this, while being the owner of three neck turning lathes, so I have the tee-shirt.
.
Lee If you want a gadget to play with. buy a neck turn tool
and forget about the rest. I think you are worrying about to much.
Mike /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
I will disagree on that.
The neck turning tool is the last tool to get - even in benchrest, many BR chambers now cut with "No turn" necks.
Neck turning will show no improvement in "off the rack" rifles, and invite more problems than it "solves".
I say this, while being the owner of three neck turning lathes, so I have the tee-shirt.
.
Aznative
New member
skeetlee, I have the rcbs case guage setup. It has become an overpriced case seperation checking machine. I leave it set up to check for case seperation, and that is all I use it for. While doing this operation I don't even usually go by the gauge. I have found I can detect seperation by feel better than by using the gauge. I could do the same thing with a dental pick.
Over at 6mmbr.com there is an article about factors affecting accuracy. I don't remember the exact name so you may have trouble finding it. If you PM me and give me your email address, I can send them to you. In these two articles the guy is kinda anal about concentricity. He claims that he gets more uniform brass by resizing in one step without the expander ball in the die. In the next step he expands the neck as a seperate step on the up stroke of the press. For some reason he has found this makes more uniform brass. This may be true but I'm not sure because I've never tested this theory myself. Some of his comments made sense and some didn't make sense to me. He doesn't feel powder charge affects accuracy that much. This may be due to him shooting high quality heavy barreled guns. I don't see this with my field rifles at all. Powder charge is very important.
Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up about it. Shoot the bullets and have fun. That is why I bought a Dillon 650 is to shoot more reload less.
Over at 6mmbr.com there is an article about factors affecting accuracy. I don't remember the exact name so you may have trouble finding it. If you PM me and give me your email address, I can send them to you. In these two articles the guy is kinda anal about concentricity. He claims that he gets more uniform brass by resizing in one step without the expander ball in the die. In the next step he expands the neck as a seperate step on the up stroke of the press. For some reason he has found this makes more uniform brass. This may be true but I'm not sure because I've never tested this theory myself. Some of his comments made sense and some didn't make sense to me. He doesn't feel powder charge affects accuracy that much. This may be due to him shooting high quality heavy barreled guns. I don't see this with my field rifles at all. Powder charge is very important.
Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up about it. Shoot the bullets and have fun. That is why I bought a Dillon 650 is to shoot more reload less.
Aznative
New member
Mike2, it isn't bad advice. It all depends on what works for each and every individual. I've always been able to find acceptable accuracy without neck turning. I had a friend that believed in it; and he did get some great groups so it seemed to help in his case. It all depends on how good is good enough to the individual shooter. As a professional mechanic, I've always look at things from the customer point of view. What constitutes the perfect tuneup: Any tune up that makes the customer happy. This same sort of logic applies to accuracy.
buckhalljr
New member
Nothing wrong with having fun, loading the best ammo you can, and yes consistency is the key. Many years ago I too got caught up in the perfectionist mode, and still live in it today. I have got to go for now but will reply late tonight or tomorow boring everbody to death with my reloading regime.
Lee, a wind flag will help you shoot smaller groups than all those gadgets...I have two or three sets of gadgets...being a gadget freek that likes to tinker.
The el cheapo way to go to help eliminate run out is to get a Lee collet die and a Bonanza bullet seater, and use the Bonanza neck and full length sizers that support the neck while the expander ball comes through the neck. Much of the run out comes from an expander ball dragging through the neck, kinking it to one side or the other.
Bushing dies that eliminate the expander ball, can be an aid in eliminating run out. Also, the redding competition seater is no better than the Bonanza Bullet seater at less than half the cost of the Redding.
The drive to perfection will leade to a gun that has a Blue printed action, top quality Stainless barrel, threaded and chambered with a minimum spec reamer, by a gunsmith that is not a pipe fitter, in a pillar bedded fiberglass or laminate stock....be careful for what you wish for.
The el cheapo way to go to help eliminate run out is to get a Lee collet die and a Bonanza bullet seater, and use the Bonanza neck and full length sizers that support the neck while the expander ball comes through the neck. Much of the run out comes from an expander ball dragging through the neck, kinking it to one side or the other.
Bushing dies that eliminate the expander ball, can be an aid in eliminating run out. Also, the redding competition seater is no better than the Bonanza Bullet seater at less than half the cost of the Redding.
The drive to perfection will leade to a gun that has a Blue printed action, top quality Stainless barrel, threaded and chambered with a minimum spec reamer, by a gunsmith that is not a pipe fitter, in a pillar bedded fiberglass or laminate stock....be careful for what you wish for.