Bye Bye lead bullets

Yellowhammer

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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/18/end...-to-green-ammo/

When the last bullet-producing lead smelter closes its doors on Dec. 31, it will mark a major victory for those who say lead-based ammunition pollutes the environment, but others warn 'green' bullets will cost more, drive up copper prices and do little to help conservation.

The bid to ban lead bullets, seen by some as harmful to the environment, started slowly more than a decade ago. But with two dozen states, including California, banning bullets made of the soft, heavy metal, the lead bullet's epitaph was already being written when the federal government finished it off.

First, the military announced plans to phase out lead bullets by 2018.


"Whatever the EPA's motivation when creating the new lead air quality standard, increasingly restrictive regulation of lead is likely to affect the production and cost of traditional ammunition."

- National Rifle Association

Then the federal Environmental Protection Agency, citing emissions, ordered the shutdown of the Doe Run company's lead smelter in Herculaneum, Mo., by year's end.

Whether by state or federal regulation, or by market forces, lead bullets will be all but phased out within a few years in favor of so-called green bullets, experts say. While many believe that this will help the environment by keeping lead from contaminating groundwater, others say switching to copper-based bullets will cost hunters and sportsmen more and have little effect on the environment.

"Whatever the EPA's motivation when creating the new lead air quality standard, increasingly restrictive regulation of lead is likely to affect the production and cost of traditional ammunition," the National Rifle Association said in a statement

Critics of lead bullets say that in addition to lead finding its way into the water supply and food chain, people who handle ammunition have been found to have elevated levels of lead in their blood. Lead poisoning harms organs and tissues and can result in brain damage.

"Switching to nontoxic lead ammunition will save the lives of eagles, condors and thousands of other birds every year – and, importantly, will keep hunters and their families from being exposed to toxic lead," the Center for Biological Diversity said in a statement after California Gov. Jerry Brown signed into law a phaseout of lead bullets for hunting by July 2019.

The Army has been researching a more environment-friendly bullet at the Picatinny Arsenal, in New Jersey, since 2010. A lead-free version of the 7.62-mm rounds fired from M-14 rifles will be issued to troops in 2014. That will follow a prior switch to a greener 5.56 mm "Enhanced Performance Round" the Army switched to in 2010..

“The EPR replaces the lead slug with a copper slug,” Lt. Col. Phil Clark, product manager for small-caliber ammunition at Picatinny, told the Daily Caller. “This makes the projectile environmentally friendly, while still giving soldiers the performance capabilities they need on the battlefield.”

The army has projected that use of green bullets for small-round ammunition could eliminate the purchase of nearly 4,000 metric tons of lead between now and 2018.

Jim Yardley a retired financial controller and blogger for americanthinker.com, estimated it would cost $18,431,000 to replace the lead with copper.

“Nearly $20 million, not to improve the effectiveness of the ammunition used by our troops, but to protect the environment,” Yardley wrote.

In 2010, Doe Run settled with the EPA and state regulators for $65 million and a pledge to close the 120-year-old smelter by year's end. Doe Run General Manager Gary Hughes said the company tried to bring its smelter into compliance so it could continue to produce lead products, but abandoned plans in 2012 due to federal regulations.

"We hoped to be building another such plant by now; however, constructing a full-scale plant, given other regulatory compliance spending requirements, puts our company at financial risk," he said.

It is unclear if another company will open a new lead smelter in the U.S. that can meet the more stringent air quality standards. But with the biggest buyer of ammo switching to copper-core, "green" bullets, and the number of state bans on lead bullets growing, ammunition makers are adapting. One such company is Florida-based Liberty Ammunition, which has ramped up production of green bullets by adding a second production shift.

“Copper is not cheap,” said Matthew Phillips, Liberty's vice president of sales and marketing. “Luckily, we’ve managed to find a way to keep the cost down.”

Copper bullets have a similar pricepoint to high-end lead bullets, but can be as much as twice the cost of lower-end lead bullets, say experts. And diverting copper for bullet manufacturing could have other unintended economic consequences, critics warn.

“This will inevitably increase the cost of electronic devices that use copper," wrote Yardley."It will add to the cost of a wiring a new home, having an adverse impact on the housing industry.”

“The Treasury Department already wants to discontinue the penny due to the cost of producing it. A rising cost of copper will only add impetus to that, and might encourage them to repeat the response to a copper shortage during WWII, and produce pennies from steel.”
 
this is like what, the 3rd or 4th post about this in the last few months. the smelter did not produce much lead for bullets, mostly car batteries. new regulations will make bullet more expensive, and i am sure there will be more non-lead bullets coming out.

lead bullet will be around for a long time despite all the current b.s.
 
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Quote:But with two dozen states, including California, banning bullets made of the soft, heavy metal, the lead bullet's epitaph was already being written when the federal government finished it off.


I knew about California. What are the other states that have banned lead? If it really is 24 that is essentially half the country.
 
If I'm not mistaken this smelter was just that, it produced lead from raw material. I read somewhere that there's far more lead recycled every year in this country than this smelter put out.

I think its being blown out of proportion. While on the cover it sounds bad, its not like lead is going to disappear. The looneys havnt figured out how to make their prius's roll down the road without it yet.

I don't know of any other states that have banned it for hunting. Speaking of that what about shooting? Can you use lead for target practice or is it just hunting its being banned for?
 
It isn't just lead... It's the Obama Administration trying to tank the economy on every front, and destroy America. If the regulations they propose succeed at shutting down all of the coal fired plants they're talking about shutting down, how many thousands of BIG MONEY jobs will be lost nationwide??? You take out a power plant, you take out the coal mine that goes with it. You're probably looking at 1500 - 2000 jobs per plant, figuring administration, management, staff, and security personell at both the plant and the mine.

That doesn't even remotely touch the impact it will have on suppliers, contractors, and the ripple down effect on local communities.

It isn't just power plants and lead smelters either gentlemen. There is a huge phosphate mine right across the river from me here in Florida. They cut the workforce by 350 jobs. Not menial jobs, not minimum wage jobs, we're talking $20 - $50/hour jobs. We're not talking people that started last year, my ex-brother-in-law has 20+ years even with the time he took off to go back to school. He got his Bachelor's Degree in Business Management, and moved from the labor pool to a supervisory position within 2 years of finishing his degree, and has been a supervisor out there for nearly a decade. The senior most person at the mine, reportedly has almost 50 years with the company at one mine or another was layed off.

That's how deep the cuts over the latest EPA standards are hitting. It isn't about bullets gentlemen, don't even stop there, that is a very narrow minded analysis of the agenda at play; it is all about destroying the economy in this country. If you believe otherwise, you really need to wake up, open your eyes, and take a closer look at what's going on around the country at present.

 
Originally Posted By: FurhunterIf I'm not mistaken this smelter was just that, it produced lead from raw material. I read somewhere that there's far more lead recycled every year in this country than this smelter put out.

I think its being blown out of proportion. While on the cover it sounds bad, its not like lead is going to disappear. The looneys havnt figured out how to make their prius's roll down the road without it yet.

I don't know of any other states that have banned it for hunting. Speaking of that what about shooting? Can you use lead for target practice or is it just hunting its being banned for? CA just passed a state wide lead hunting ammo ban. It only applies to hunting. It will be implemented as soon as they can figure out the details, hopefully not for a few more years but nobody knows yet. Full enforcement SHALL be in effect BY 2019.

Next step in CA is to ban lead ammo target shooting on public land. (Lots of CA public land already prohibits target shooting, discharging a firearm is only allowed when taking an animal in accordance with fish & game laws). Then banning shooting all lead ammo anywhere.

Your state is next...
 
The lead bullet ban effects the .224 caliber rifles and smaller calibers the most.

I have not seen any lead free 22 Long Rifle ammo that shoot worth a darn yet and it costs more than twice as much as 22 LR lead ammo.

Many center fire .224 caliber bolt action rifles will not be the same when you have to use Lead Free bullets. If you use 50 to 60 gr lead bullets in your factory 1-12" and 1-14" twist rifles. You will be limited to 35 gr to 40 gr lead free bullets.

The smaller than .224 caliber rifles will have to shoot much lighter lead free bullets.

The BCs on lead free bullets are much lower than the BCs on lead bullets. Lead Free bullets are MUCH longer than lead bullets of the same weight.

Right now there are many calibers that do not have any Lead Free bullets other than solid copper bullets. The solid copper big game bullets cost two to three times more than lead bullets or Lead Free varmint bullets.
 
Originally Posted By: reb8600I dont know of any states other than California that dont allow lead bullets.

I wonder if they're counting migratory waterfowl.
 
The true tragedy here is the fact that a plant that has been open for over 100 years and has approximately 100 employees can be forced to spend, I do believe over 60 million dollars just because someone in the higher ups tells the EPA how to enforce the laws.

I talked with one of my lead suppliers, that I use to make bullets and he actually told me that this closure will not change much in ways of the business they do because they still get recycled lead from Doe Run.
 
Lets start another Panic so everyone is buying all the bullets they can find even if they will never shoot that many in ten life times.

There is so much BS in the shooting world it almost makes you sick to read it anymore.
 
Originally Posted By: TrapShooter12Lets start another Panic so everyone is buying all the bullets they can find even if they will never shoot that many in ten life times.

There is so much BS in the shooting world it almost makes you sick to read it anymore.

No freaking kidding.

What a steaming heap of rehashed rehash. Oh, wait, I see this time it's the last "bullet-producing lead smelter". How a smelter produces bullets, I'm not really sure. But hey, let's all sh!t ourselves, squeal like little girls, and run out and buy a bunch of ammo and bullets.

Makes me wonder if rather than Obama being behind this, it's really the price gouging pawn shops and gun shops that are screwing everyone with inflated prices.

Grouse
 
OMG, I am not going to be able to buy any bullets with lead in them because the government is closing down Doe Run? I guess I won't be able to drive my "green" electric car because it uses lead storage batteries. I probably will not be able to count on the uninterpretable power supply at the office or the emergency lighting in the hospitals because they too run off batteries. I suppose we won't be able to count on the batteries that support motive power or telecommunications either. What will they use to balance the tires on my "green" car if there are no lead weights? I suppose the dentist and the doctor won't be able to use lead shielding when they take an xray of my teeth or broken bones.I guess the PVC pipe industry will have to find another stabilizer in their pipe manufacturing process and of course I am not planning on using any solder anytime soon. I guess we won't need the lead telluride, lead antimonide, and lead selenide which are used in photovoltaic solar energy cells and infrared detectors. I am certain that the EPA will also find another material for us to use in the cooling process of the reactors in nuclear power plants. And the Tetraethyl lead that is utilized as an anti-knock additive for aviation fuel in piston-driven aircraft engines won't be necessary either. So...a big thank you to the EPA from saving us from contamination of the goundwater as a result of us using lead bullets. Can someone please tell me what the numb nuts in our government are thinking or is that just a rhetorical question?

The sad truth is that the things I listed above represent about 90% of the usage of lead in the United States. The end result is that lead will be processed in China, Viet Nam, India, Pakistan, Iran and all those other wonderful places and sold to us at ten times the price. Just more freedom of choice going out the window at the hands of the progressives. It is so sad that we have come to this and we keep putting them back in office.
 
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Originally Posted By: RiverRiderSo, it's possible to inhibit the production of a commodity without causing a price increase?

Now THAT'S bs.

Yes, it absolutely is possible. It happens all the time and every time that supply exceeds demand.

The doom/gloom crowd that are pimping this non-story as a reason that all gun owners should promptly sh!t themselves and run out and buy ammo are missing one thing: There isn't a shortage of lead. The supply of lead is VASTLY in excess of demand.

Lead use has plunged dramatically over the past 30 years. Reduction in use and increased recycling have combined to make the demand for new lead ore very low.

There are lots of concerns out there when it comes to back door gun control measures. Trying to cut off guns by cutting off the lead supply isn't one of them. Stop inventing problems that don't exist and wild conspiracy theories that just make gun owners look like retreads. We gun owners need to focus on the real threats in the form of state and local gun bans, California-style ammo bans, and other real threats that are happening right now under our noses.

Grouse
 
lead wheel weights are a thing of the past. most wheel weights are now zinc or something else. all the solder used for water pipes has been lead free for decades. lead in gasoline is a thing of the past, most racing fuels/ aviation fuels these days are low lead or no lead.

maybe according to Grouse i am a retread, or a conspiracy theory guy. but, oh well. there is no doubt whatsoever that the government IS trying backdoor gun control through ammunition supplies. california already has lead bullet bans, i fully expect that many other states will soon ban lead shot for turkeys and upland birds, lead bullets for small game hunting, and many other instances. while some of that may be based in safety, there is an underlying desire to make shooting and hunting more expensive and more difficult. i also expect that many shooting ranges will be closed due to "ground water contamination" issues.
make no mistake, the anti-gun crowd will do ANYTHING to take away your guns or your ability to shoot. if they cant outright take your gun, the next best thing is to make it illegal for you to shoot it. or make it so cost prohibitive that you wont bother.

the non-lead bullet idea has been around for a while, but now it conflicts with "armor piercing handgun ammunition" regulations. they want to ban lead for "public safety" reasons, BUT, go make a bullet out of solid brass and put it in a handgun and now you are in violation of ATF rules!

i use quite a few cast bullets, especially in larger calibers like 405 win and 45-70, lead bullets are cheap. go see how much a non-lead bullet replacement is for one of those calibers, and then tell me you will keep shooting them!

conspiracy theory? if you think so, do some research on ATF abuses of ammunition and bullet manufacturers.
 
Originally Posted By: The Famous GrouseOriginally Posted By: RiverRiderSo, it's possible to inhibit the production of a commodity without causing a price increase?

Now THAT'S bs.

Yes, it absolutely is possible. It happens all the time and every time that supply exceeds demand.

The doom/gloom crowd that are pimping this non-story as a reason that all gun owners should promptly sh!t themselves and run out and buy ammo are missing one thing: There isn't a shortage of lead. The supply of lead is VASTLY in excess of demand.

Lead use has plunged dramatically over the past 30 years.

Grouse


But now lead is selling for 3 to 4 times more than it was 30 years ago. Lead has more than doubled in price in the last 10 years.
 


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