Can Animals See in IR?? A true Synopsis is needed, scientific vs. reality...

V

Victor_TNVC

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Over the last many years this topic has gone back and forth and it has interested me a great deal. This has been sparked by another post on another blog where a user said ONE of his cats can see in the IR. As many of us know, cats and owls see in very low light and IR lasers even though they are in the IR can actually show a faint visible signature. PLEASE DO NOT LOOK AT YOUR IR laser but simply shine it on the palm of your hand and you may see a faint red dot. This one cat remark was very interesting and we keep hearing of animals who folks talk about while hunting they are spooked by their IR lasers. IMHO 95% of the critters are either seeing you, smelling you, hearing you, or seeing your IR LED emitter (lasers are barely visible as I mentioned and concentric). BUT, there have been many other interesting reports that get the thinking cap on for the last 5%...Almost (just almost like the UFO saga, just wish one of those thousands of videos would be clear enough.../images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif)

Awhile back, I also talked with several animal biologist I knew and asked them about this IR light and animals subject. Both of them mentioned snakes were the only known animal (well reptile) they knew about and acknowledged they could be the only ones to see in the near IR.

The most damning evidence of animals seeing in the IR was several years ago on another site with a user named IR-V. He was a Technical Director in the defense arena who worked with thermal devices and was a very smart guy. He and always wanted to meet so he could show me how his high power lasers from his PEQ-2A's, Attila's and other early Class 1 lasers were spooking deer and rabbits. We had many in-depth debates on this and he was very resilient in his findings. He disagreed with any assumptions that he was seen, heard or smelled by the outdoor tests he performed. I have to admit he was convincing against all the scientific evidence that disputed this along with animal biologists.

So as the plot seems to always thicken on this subject, please feel free to post your stories on what animals, gear you were using etc. Be specific on approx range to the animals, lighting environment, moon, cloud cover, and your location to the animals. Stand, hide, prone, standing, from a truck etc. Or if you have experimented with this at home with your pets via NVD's.

I know skypup who is a MOD here is an eye specialist here who I hope will chime in with the scientific aspect as they will argue based on their research what the eye in some species can and cannot see. Look forward to input as I investigate further.


 
A search of the National Gene Bank gene database reveals NO genes producing any mammalian photoreceptor proteins that absorb IR light in any mammals on Earth, even though 50% of the light reaching terrestrial Earth through the atmosphere is of a higher wavelength than what mammals can visually perceive.

Biological IR vision has many problems, the least of which is that no visual opsin pigment protein exists that can pick up infra-red light, not to mention there are not enough neurons in any mammalian brain to process another 50% increase in visible light in any mammalian ganglion visual cortex. Problematically, Infra-red radiation is much lower in energy than visual light, remember the energy of a photon is inversely proportional to its wavelength.

Also the blood vessels in the retina itself produce copious amounts of IR from the warm blood flowing through them, even the corneal cells, lenticular cells, and the vitreous and aqueous humor are emitting IR, so being able to see it from outside the eye itself would be extremely problematic with the entire eye being naturally bathed in IR itself..
 
Vic,
I only ponder this question as it pertains to coyotes, foxes, and bobcats. I don't worry about what a snake can see because I don't hunt them.
I've read a lot of opinions, back and forth, on what some guys believe that predators can see. I have to admit that I don't know for sure. I do know what I can see. I cannot see a light beam from a IR illuminator.
I can see the emitter glow. I have walked out to 100 yrds and looked back at the IR and I can easily see it from that far.
Many times I have seen the predator stop and look directly at my IR when I turn it on. I absolutely believe that they can see the glow. I do not believe that they can see a beam of IR light.
I accept that there is a chance that the predator might detect my IR emitter glow, but the advantages of NV far outweigh the few animals that are spooked by it. In my experience if you see the predator a long way off, and turn the IR on then rather than hitting it with the IR all of the sudden at close range, they are not too bothered by it. It is kind of like "conditioning" the animal to the IR, just like the red LED light hunters talk about.
I have used both 810 and 850nm Ir's. I don't have any experience with any other nm's.
 
Originally Posted By: 1trkyhntrVic,
I only ponder this question as it pertains to coyotes, foxes, and bobcats. I don't worry about what a snake can see because I don't hunt them.
I've read a lot of opinions, back and forth, on what some guys believe that predators can see. I have to admit that I don't know for sure. I do know what I can see. I cannot see a light beam from a IR illuminator.
I can see the emitter glow. I have walked out to 100 yrds and looked back at the IR and I can easily see it from that far.
Many times I have seen the predator stop and look directly at my IR when I turn it on. I absolutely believe that they can see the glow. I do not believe that they can see a beam of IR light.
I accept that there is a chance that the predator might detect my IR emitter glow, but the advantages of NV far outweigh the few animals that are spooked by it. In my experience if you see the predator a long way off, and turn the IR on then rather than hitting it with the IR all of the sudden at close range, they are not too bothered by it. It is kind of like "conditioning" the animal to the IR, just like the red LED light hunters talk about.
I have used both 810 and 850nm Ir's. I don't have any experience with any other nm's.

Agreed with your assessment and SP is an SME in this subject as well. Great information. It's been an interesting topic for a number of years and grows as the popularity of NV grows and more and more folks are hunting with NV at night.
 
I agree with 1trkyhntr, what I've observed in the field and on my trail cam pics and videos is the IR glow is visible, it has to be to get a reaction. That reaction isn't always the same, some don't care others don't tolerate it.
 
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In my experience animals see the glow from my IR illuminators. Just last night a bobcat at 60 yards looked directly at it, actually sat and watched it for a while. Whether they see IR, or the emitter is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. What is relevant is that they do see it (glow) which doesn't bring about stealth. Having said that, most animals don't seem to mind the glow, though I have had a couple of coyotes that didn't like it. Same can be said for my trail cameras that give off a red glow.

 
I agree with what also said ( They don't ) . Several years back I would have though that Coyote or other animals might have seen my IR units when hunting at night . Because they would stop sometimes and look right at me . But now I know better . if animal is looking right in your direction when you are illuminating that direction, it because they are tuning with concentration all they got in your immediate direction because they hear, smell or suspect something is there, and it is no more than that .

I primary only use 850nm units. I do have a couple of laser pointers in 910mn . But no mammals see IR illumination put on them that project downrange with NV . I been informed that insects and some birds can see some of NV IR nm frequency that is used with NV .
There is a very 'slight' diode glow at the unit's diode Obj. in 'some' nm frequencies you use with IR units, but it is not much and when you walk out down range you cant see that tiny of a glow in the dark even @ 100 yrd . And If what I am hunting is anywhere inside the 100 yard anyway it 100% a little to late for them anyway .
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Never saw the 850nm IR laser or IR Illuminator for the two minutes I had it on him before he died./images/smilies/icon_smile_big.gif





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Put 850 nm IR laser right between the two bright shining eyes bathed in 850nm IR light at 50 yards, DRT.



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I don't believe they see the IR beam at all, but they can definitely see the glow at the source. I've watched too many animals react to it. My guess is that how one uses the IR light has a lot to do with it. Just like when scanning with regular lights, the animal needs to be conditioned from a distance. I think most night hunters using IR would have better results if they kept the IR light on using low power, a rheostat control is great for this, and then bring the light up to as much power as needed for the shot. Also that glow at the source also doesn't need to be doing a lot of moving around. That's my opinion, but your results and experiences may differ. I'm just relating what I've seen hundreds of times with coyotes, cats, foxes, and deer.
 
In all of our research over the years, coyotes and other animals (including humans) can definitely see the glow (IR signature) emitted by the IR device. IR signature (glow) intensity is a function of the IR LED wavelength and the power rating. Therefore, if the power rating of both units is the same, the lower wavelength LED will produce more glow than a unit that has a higher wavelength rating. Trail camera manufacturers go to great lengths to produce units that put out little IR glow to keep from spooking game. My trail cams are all set to take video and I've witnessed several occasions when deer look directly at the camera (when in operation) and clear out rather quickly. So in general, in most cases it is the IR emitter glow that is causing issues with spooked game (including coyotes). I have noticed that bobcats, foxes, and even deer are less concerned about the IR glow than are coyotes. Coyotes around here (central IL) seem to be very sensitive to the IR glow. Kevin
 
Originally Posted By: SkyPupNever saw the 850nm IR laser or IR Illuminator for the two minutes I had it on him before he died.
Put 850 nm IR laser right between the two bright shining eyes bathed in 850nm IR light at 50 yards, DRT.


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I also watch them as long as possible most times before pulling the trigger . They don't see it .
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I always been told and practice, Not centering the units circle of IR illumination with target all right in the collimated beam's center . Most people just center there IR illumination same as they slave there IR Laser, ( all Center) with scopes Reticle and call it good .

Although I do slave my IR laser @ 75 yard on the day scope Reticle .
I don't worry that my target might see my IR units tiny glow, and if there that close that will be the last they will see . But I do what I was told and keep the illumination collimated beam 'high' on top of target, with the target centered in the bottom 30% of illumination circle . I try not to spill unused IR on the ground and keep majority of it high on target and spill over downrange of the target I am illuminating . In keeping the IR diode high above eye-line of target .
This also greatly serves another purpose with keeping beams collimation high of target, and helps keep out a lot of IR-bloom your spilling and wasting off the ground and grasses/vegetation, and especially is things are dew or rain wet .
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A friend and I were watching a feeder at 80 yards from an elevated box stand with the wind in our faces and deer moved in and it was a very dark night with no moon. He had spotted them with his thermal monocular.

When I switched on my Pulsar N750 IR Illuminator light they immediately alerted to it and stared right at it. I'm certain they could see the glow but one deer that was facing away ignored or couldn't see it. They didn't run off but they seemed curious. I switched it on and off several times and each time they alerted to it so we were absolutely certain they could see it.

That was the first time I decided to get a thermal scope. Obviously I don't hunt deer at night but we DO go after hogs and coyotes at night.

The only animals I'm absolutely sure of that can see the glow are deer and myself. So far I haven't had a coyote close enough to spook with it but they seem to stall immediately when I switch on the illuminator. I bet they'd have a real problem with it if they got close enough as our coyotes are ultra spooky.

My game cameras are all the top of the line Bushnell cameras and nothing seems to be spooked by them and I have several and have taken tens of thousands of pics with them at night and no critters seem to even notice them.

Just my own observations after a lot of watching and thinking.
 
You might have popped a good signature glow at the unit @ only 80 yard distance to the feeder with that Pulsar IR ?
The Illumination put out by the unit, and 'signature' glow at the source are different . That pulsar is Digital NV , ( I think ? ) the nm frequency used is down in the low 700nm range for the Pulsar Dig. unit to pickup good compatible illumination .
I know when move up threw the ranges starting at 600nm like 'example' visible red lasers . the range all way up into the low 900nm range . For a Signature 700 nm range 'does' has some good visible red glow signature in dark right at the unit's diode .

Your pusar unit, It a different in frequency used for gen.3 NV that is usually 830 - 850 nm for more compatible . It varies for compatible IR in Digital NV to Gen3 intensifier Tube NV, and it even different on some of the NV also . I had a couple Israeli gen.2 units once and they would perform like crap with the 850nm IR units I was using on my Gen.3 littons .
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So in reading this post it seems that the only question is what is the best way to reduce the ir signature? Do the ir filters help at all to reduce the signature at the hunter? Thermal is still out of my budget but I am curious about reducing the signature at the source because there is no way it could hurt.

I finally found enough funds to purchase some "cheap" night vision and am now looking to start night hunting again. We have used spotlights of all varieties here in VA and have only harvested 2 coyotes in 20 years with them. We have however killed 30+ hunting them in the daylight. So I felt like it was worth a shot to try NV and hopefully get a thermal scanner in the long run. VA coyotes are like your coyotes Kevin and very skittish definitely not like the shows on tv where they ride around in trucks with spotlights and make it look easy.
 
If you add a filter to an IR you're going to reduce the intensity of the source. IR light is one specific wave length like 810/850/940. The higher the wavelength the less visible, 940 is less visible than 810. You need to use the emitter needed for your specific NV. High end Gen3 may work well with 940 but not Gen1.

When you add a red filter to a white light it absorbs everything but the wavelength specific to that filter. White light is a combination of all the colors in the visible spectrum from 390-700nm. A red filter absorbs wavelengths from 390-500 allowing colors at the red end of the spectrum to be seen.

Picture are gone but this explains it.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...8609&page=1
 
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I find this topic interesting and not to change the direction of the thread but I’m curious if there is anything such as a filter to put on the end of my ir. I’m well aware that coyotes cannot see the beam of light but they can definitely see the source whether what color they see it as or shade of grey it is seen as they can still see it. Would an ir filter still allow enough light to pass through to be useable at a couple hundred yards with gen 3 scope? I’m assuming that the ir filter would black out the ir signature? Dose nightvision actually use infrared light or is it using the light that is under the infrared wavelengths? It is my understanding that the 810,850.940 and such are averages for the wavelength of light produced and there is some in the 5-600 wavelengths to creates the red signature. Or since my ir is a rheostat would it be the same to leave the bulb turned down as putting a filter on it? Or should I just turn the light on when I see the yote as the constant light may not be as spooky as it coming on when he’s close? So many questions thanks for your input.
 
I actually looked up some stuff and it might not be as cut and dry as I posted. Easiest way to tell is add an IR filter to an 850 emitter and and see if you actually still see the glow, and then see if how it effects your NV equipment.
 
I'll tell you story from tonight. I don't know what happened but something went wrong. We had 2 coyotes coming in out of the wood line from maybe 200 yards. We saw them with the thermals. Then we switched to the NV scopes.
I am using a 850nm IR, my buddy is using 810nm.
I whispered that I was on the one on the right. It was coming in steady. I saw my buddies IR light on my coyote for a second or 2. He later told me that he could not see them both at the same time in his scope so he panned to see which one was on the right.
My coyote stopped dead in his tracks when the 810nm hit him, maybe 120 yds. I had my cross hairs on his chest but I did not know what the coyote on the left was doing so I waited on my buddy to give the signal. My coyote paused for a couple of seconds then bolted at full speed and that spooked the second coyote. We both shot at running coyotes and as far as I know we did not hit anything but dirt.
The wind was right and there was no moon.
I believe that the visible IR glow from my buddies moving IR was probably what spooked them.
 
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So would any grade of filter even say a 720 reduce the glow... I want to get all the light from my 850 but don't want my glow to be seen.... I know red lights and green lights do not work where I'm at so the red glow has me a little anxious...
 
It’s the light movement not the light that spooks them. I have been in states that let you use IR. If you hold it still it seems ok if you move it around they get spooked. I was on one with my IR an wasnt moving my partner moved his gun to get on him I saw his light shift in my scope an the coyote spooked at the same time of his movement.
 


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