Chronical of my SH testing

204 AR

204 AR

Well-known member
I was on fire since yesterday to get my scope sent in. I had a couple of nice talks with the over worked Bering service guy today. He went through several things and he wanted me to check the objective lens for any looseness and send him a message back. He took my info so they could get it in the system and email a label.

I found no looseness of the lens and reported so. As the evening started I decided that it's a dark moon and by the time I got it back it would be full again, so there's really no hurry at this point. So I dug out another upper, pulled the day scope, and clamped the SH to it. I have more than a decade of experience with this upper and it has never had a wandering zero and was my first coyote upper. 223 Ackley, 50 gr zmax.

I'm listening to some of the suggestions here, the test will be benched and bagged. I was on target, or close enough for this, in 6 shots and left it at that for today. Started with a perfectly clean barrel. Heated screw head gives a pretty precise aiming point, all shots will be after dark as was suggested.

Not the best group I've ever shot lol. Light breeze from 6.
We'll see how this turns out over the next few days.

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I will add that I've been playing with my R25 on the 22lr quite a bit, taking it on and off, switching gun profiles, and it seems rock solid. It comes back to zero on that 22 better than I could hope, granted the range is 30 yards or so instead of 100 but I feel I could trust it.
 
Just bought a Super Dogster and have not been able to shoot it much, so I will be following a couple of the threads pretty closely.
 
My SY is due to be delivered tomorrow. Switching my 6X6.8 barrel from the Camo Bushmaster Varminter to the Black Bushmaster Predator. The main reason, I'm adding a MLoc tube with a full Picatiny on top so I have a place to mount the TRB aux battery for the SY and the black upper & lower will look better than the Camo with a black tube. Although a dead coyote at night isn't going to care. Sure hope I don't have the wandering reticle syndrome.
 
I am not trying to belittle any issues any person has with any thermal scope. As very well documented on this forum and other places, I was one of the people who experienced it with the original Trail series. However, there are tons of Bering thermals being used across the globe and all across the US with the vast majority thrilled by their performance.

If you go on any user's group for any thermal including Nvision or Trijicon, there will be some post saying a thermal isn't holding zero. I am not saying there aren't legitimate cases where it can and does happen. However, don't go into a purchase with the thought, I hope it holds zero. It is like going up to a golf swing and saying, "I hope I don't miss."

One thing that hasn't been talked about is the NUC process. Thermals have to NUC (well there is tech being worked on that might change this, but for now let's say they all have to). There are complex algorithms used to redraw the thermal image. Temperature is one of the things taken into consideration. If the NUC algorithm doesn't function properly, zeroes shift. This was one of the reasons the original Trails were shifting. A proper NUC can and should adjust the image.. Can this lead to a minor shift in reticle, the answer is yes, and it actually should or bigger problems will exist. So, if the image adjusts by one pixel that is .54" on a SY and .67" on a SH, etc. A one or two pixel shift accounts for .5 to 1"+. This doesn't take into account your gun, ammo, temp, and that is if everything is shot perfectly with a perfect placed shot, at the perfect distance, etc. I would not be concerned with a .5" to 1" shift. What you will notice is you adjust it and shoot all of a sudden, another day, and it is back where it was. This is the NUC algorithms doing it's job or you would end up with 6"+ issues that I experienced with Trail series. This is not excuses, this is thermal technology.

Double Up has mentioned this before but a target will cast a different thermal image/shadow depending on current lighting conditions as well. If people zero their thermals like a day scope and have the exact same expectations of a day scope, they will most likely be disappointed.

It is good to check your zero, but in general call-in coyotes and kill them.
 
This doesn't explain a scope tracking along as it is supposed to and then bam a 1.5" move when it should be .54"

I'm guessing the vast majority never test poi with any frequency.

I think these companies would be better served if they just come out and said you should expect x amount of shift. I want my zero to be as rock solid as possible but I don't want to return a scope a half dozen times only to have the same issue.

The reason several of us bought the yoter was to escape the trail pitfalls because of all the good feedback on the SH.
 
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Well I'll find out one way or another. I can handle an inch or half inch as normal day to day. This is why I'm doing this last effort and putting it out for all to see, good or bad. If it's in the design and nature of the beast, so be it. I really really hope all is well.

I also understand how something like this becomes contagious, people who never had an issue see these posts and start questioning their own stuff. My intent is to gain confidence in my optic and not waste berings time and money with a non issue.

Let's keep this thread to the targets and descriptions please. Gale winds today so there probably won't be an update for a day or two.
 
So when it nukes it can move a pixel or two.....what if it moves to a pixel or set of pixels that it is on when the scope makes big moves when adjusting????

I've also heard thermions aren't having a shift issue.
It's hard to wade through all the internet bs
 
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Day 2, ***Please read the weather description before looking***

Temp around 20 compared to 40 last night. The big change is the wind, measured 16 mph from about 8 ocklock. Strelok tells me it should drift 1.7" The group measures 1 3/4" from the center of the 2 shots on the right of the left group. I call this a win for sure.

Rifle was brought out of the house right before shooting so no temp change test. I nuc'd immediately before shooting.

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I welcome on topic comments and surely don't mean to talk anyone out of getting into thermals. I just never see these kinds of tests done and I feel these kinds of discussions can give people more of an idea what to expect. I really didn't have any idea what kind of groups could be shot with one. I'm hopeful that I was having rifle or ammo issues instead of scope issues and so far so good.
 
I agree to a certain point...this is fine if the shift stays horizontal and that you only shoot at 100yds...lets say you want to shoot a coyote at 300yds and you are starting out with 3/4" POI shift off of center to begin with at 100yds...at 300yds you can be off now by at least 2 1/4" minimum and usually more...now you possibly have a gut shot coyote that is going to die but may not be recoverable or if your aim is a little forward on the front shoulder but the POI shift for that day is against you, you could have a clean miss depending on which way it is off. Now lets say this shift is vertical...same 300yd scenario...now it is very likely a miss even though it looks good thru the scope...might cut a little hair but would be easy to miss high or low even though the crosshairs looked good. None of this is meant to be disagreeable or dispute anything...just saying that with a slight "built" in off center zero and a varying POI shift from day to day or maybe even from shot to shot, it would be very easy to have misses that look good thru the scope. These are electronic pieces of equipment and we are asking a lot from them under some less than ideal conditions. None of this takes into consideration that maybe at best you have a 3/4" gun, which now adds more error to the situation, then a nice brisk wind that adds additional error, then the NUC that can/may add additional error and then the adrenaline rush and trigger slap instead of squeeze...when you add up all these "tolerances" a miss can happen real easy. The adrenaline rush and trigger control are my worst enemies...not the scope.
Having said all of this, myself, I would find it hard to accept a 3/4" shift and remain comfortable...you can never be sure which direction it is going to shift from day to day or maybe even from shot to shot. If I have a slight crosswind and put a little kentucky windage in, but the POI shift negates this I have a possible miss...same goes for aiming high or low for distance.
These things can be fickle at times and like any brand, there will be some problems with all of them.
204AR, I am interested to see what continues with your testing. Hope it all comes together.

Gene
 
Originally Posted By: G AndersonI agree to a certain point...this is fine if the shift stays horizontal and that you only shoot at 100yds...lets say you want to shoot a coyote at 300yds and you are starting out with 3/4" POI shift off of center to begin with at 100yds...at 300yds you can be off now by at least 2 1/4" minimum and usually more...now you possibly have a gut shot coyote that is going to die but may not be recoverable or if your aim is a little forward on the front shoulder but the POI shift for that day is against you, you could have a clean miss depending on which way it is off. Now lets say this shift is vertical...same 300yd scenario...now it is very likely a miss even though it looks good thru the scope...might cut a little hair but would be easy to miss high or low even though the crosshairs looked good. None of this is meant to be disagreeable or dispute anything...just saying that with a slight "built" in off center zero and a varying POI shift from day to day or maybe even from shot to shot, it would be very easy to have misses that look good thru the scope. These are electronic pieces of equipment and we are asking a lot from them under some less than ideal conditions. None of this takes into consideration that maybe at best you have a 3/4" gun, which now adds more error to the situation, then a nice brisk wind that adds additional error, then the NUC that can/may add additional error and then the adrenaline rush and trigger slap instead of squeeze...when you add up all these "tolerances" a miss can happen real easy. The adrenaline rush and trigger control are my worst enemies...not the scope.
Having said all of this, myself, I would find it hard to accept a 3/4" shift and remain comfortable...you can never be sure which direction it is going to shift from day to day or maybe even from shot to shot. If I have a slight crosswind and put a little kentucky windage in, but the POI shift negates this I have a possible miss...same goes for aiming high or low for distance.
These things can be fickle at times and like any brand, there will be some problems with all of them.
204AR, I am interested to see what continues with your testing. Hope it all comes together.

Gene

In the comments above the picture, I detailed the wind difference. The shift was all due to wind. There was no shift caused by anything but wind.
 
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That definitely sounds pretty good 204. Obviously, you weren't shooting under the best of atmospheric conditions with the wind. Of course, we seldom hunt under the best conditions, and not sure the best conditions for checking a scope would be the best for hunting. I hope your zero holds consistent for the next series of tests. I'll be looking forward to your next report.

It would be interesting to check the same rifle with a day scope several days in a row and see how much POI shift really does occur on a daily basis. I have a feeling we would see a lot more variance than we realize.

One thing Kirsch hasn't mentioned recently. Is the testing being done using the PIP, or native mag, or zoomed? All those can effect POI and probably that is where the algorithms used have the most POI effect. I noticed on my Pulsar XQ50 that some nights the PIP and the main screen didn't appear to have the same zero. I got into a habit of picking a target when I got on a stand and checking to see both crosshairs appeared to be aiming at the same point. Some nights there would be some variance and on those nights I used the native mag only, figuring the shift was something to do with the algorithms and atmosphere that night.

That is a big part of why I went to the HVAC tape for targets. I can make a nice crosshair with it that shows up well on native and PIP. For closer work at 100 yds. I cut the HVAC into 4 strips and with the SY I still get a good sight picture out to 300 yds. With the Apex, I would use full width HVAC for 300 yds. HVAC shows up really well if you remember to tilt the target back about 15 degrees. Lots of times I go to black hot which will make the HVAC appear white and causes less bloom.
 
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Originally Posted By: 204 AROriginally Posted By: G AndersonI agree to a certain point...this is fine if the shift stays horizontal and that you only shoot at 100yds...lets say you want to shoot a coyote at 300yds and you are starting out with 3/4" POI shift off of center to begin with at 100yds...at 300yds you can be off now by at least 2 1/4" minimum and usually more...now you possibly have a gut shot coyote that is going to die but may not be recoverable or if your aim is a little forward on the front shoulder but the POI shift for that day is against you, you could have a clean miss depending on which way it is off. Now lets say this shift is vertical...same 300yd scenario...now it is very likely a miss even though it looks good thru the scope...might cut a little hair but would be easy to miss high or low even though the crosshairs looked good. None of this is meant to be disagreeable or dispute anything...just saying that with a slight "built" in off center zero and a varying POI shift from day to day or maybe even from shot to shot, it would be very easy to have misses that look good thru the scope. These are electronic pieces of equipment and we are asking a lot from them under some less than ideal conditions. None of this takes into consideration that maybe at best you have a 3/4" gun, which now adds more error to the situation, then a nice brisk wind that adds additional error, then the NUC that can/may add additional error and then the adrenaline rush and trigger slap instead of squeeze...when you add up all these "tolerances" a miss can happen real easy. The adrenaline rush and trigger control are my worst enemies...not the scope.
Having said all of this, myself, I would find it hard to accept a 3/4" shift and remain comfortable...you can never be sure which direction it is going to shift from day to day or maybe even from shot to shot. If I have a slight crosswind and put a little kentucky windage in, but the POI shift negates this I have a possible miss...same goes for aiming high or low for distance.
These things can be fickle at times and like any brand, there will be some problems with all of them.
204AR, I am interested to see what continues with your testing. Hope it all comes together.

Gene

In the comments above the picture, I detailed the wind difference. The shift was all due to wind. There was no shift caused by anything but wind.

Yes 204AR, I was aware of your conditions when you shot it and wasn't necessarily directing this at your testing. My main intention was to reiterate the "stacking of tolerances" concept that can lead to those misses when it looks like the crosshairs were where they should be. And then add in any POI shifting that may be occurring...which now seems to be something of an expected norm from the units due to NUC'ing and other conditions. It appears that some units may be experiencing higher than normal shifts and others are minimal. I tried an R35 Hogster on one rifle and due to the adjustment limitations of the R35 being .94" per click, it was always .5 to .75 off of center. Then figure in every other variable and that is where I was coming from. Most day rifle scopes are 1/8 to 1/4" adjustments...the Pulsar units do have this ability but the Bering units do not...and I am not putting one over the other, just stating what is out there. The main objective is that with all the variables in thermal units, you are going to have some unexplained misses(we even miss with day scopes)...or at least I do.

Regards,
Gene
 
Originally Posted By: varminter .223Fwiw Borris told me adjustments at higher than base mag are acceptable and should work. When I tested the prototype SY, the 1x, 2x, etc adjustments worked for me. Our weather has changed with below zero temps and feet of snow so testing to the point of verifying small changes such as .14” would be difficult. At 2x, each value should be at .27” which is within . 02” from most glass scopes and should be small enough for most.

I can’t explain why some people are struggling using the smaller adjustments. It could be shooters, guns, ammo, or it could be the scope. Me suggesting using 1x adjustments did not come from Bering. It was something I mentioned to a few users and it seemed to help some. The scope allows for smaller adjustments and people can use them.

I try to help members of the PM community as best I can. Things I write are not necessarily official comments by Bering or even Night Goggles unless I write that. Many of my comments and suggestions are me simply trying to help out PM members from some of my own personal experiences.

Adding to what Gene wrote, there are lots of factors to consider. One of them is a lot of night hunters shoot standing, I totally understand the benefits of doing this, but I sit. One of the reasons is because I know my shooting accuracy is far better sitting than standing. I don’t write this to get into a debate about standing versus sitting for coyote hunting.

Another consideration is I don’t believe in this thread we have discussed the topic of thermals being further off the bore than a traditional glass scope. Due to this, thermals should be zeroed at different distances from glass scopes if people want the same ballistic pattern as with a glass scope.

People often misjudge distance at night and the list goes on. None of what I’m writing is part of the shifting POI but starts into what is being discussed of why people miss more with thermals.

Even after all of those reasons and there are more, there’s proof on this site and all over the Internet, a person can kill coyotes consistently with thermal. If you couldn’t, it wouldn’t be nearly as popular as it is especially considering the cost. Know the pros and cons, become comfortable with the differences compared to other coyote hunting, and kill coyotes.
 
I feel trying to zero beyond 2x is pointless.

The problem isn't that we don't kill coyotes. The problem is they have been worked over and or killed so bad most nights we might get 1 shot at a circler between 300 and 400 yards. Many times they circle 600 plus yards. If we don't get max remote range from the call set up to kill em circling way downwind we won't even get a shot. You certainly won't get a second standing shot.
Dec 10th and 2 nights ago was the only nights we've had coyotes just flat come in like I see in videos here. Killed 5 of seven on Dec. 10th and 4 of 6 two nights ago. Video show perfect shot with my trail 2 on one that got away at 160 which drew blood and I dropped the other one at 300 and he got up and spun then ran. Nothing is perfect but I'm always looking to improve.
 
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Originally Posted By: DoubleUp
It would be interesting to check the same rifle with a day scope several days in a row and see how much POI shift really does occur on a daily basis. I have a feeling we would see a lot more variance than we realize.

One thing Kirsch hasn't mentioned recently. Is the testing being done using the PIP, or native mag, or zoomed?

Good point on the day scope test. I have had some change, usually vertically, based on the day and sunlight. Normally I'm shooting at 200 yd straight west. I've had many afternoons/evenings of testing loads, everything looks great. Then the sun goes down, and my groups turn to crap and they're high. Anymore I don't test anything with the sun down.

I should have mentioned, all shots were on 2x, no pip. In fact I turned pip off as I can't stand that box up there, too distracting for me.
 
I'm sure everyone when sighting in tries to use the same setup every time. One of the things that could play a role is the amount of cant if any that a shooter may have. I assume that cant induced error would be greater the higher the center of the optic is above the bore. So with thermals that are generally 2.5" or higher, any change of cant or angle directly over the bore could be far more significant than the same amount with a glass scope. Any change in that angle from day to day or even shot to shot might exaggerate how wide the POI shifts. Even shooting off a sled, it isn't that hard to tilt the rifle a little from one shot to the next. It would probably take Ernest to figure out how much that would change POI from shot to shot or even if it would be significant.
 
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