Clean barrel vs dirty barrel accuracy
- Thread starter pyscodog
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Originally Posted By: orkanOriginally Posted By: ackleymanCooked on carbon is difficult to impossible to get out. At what point carbon starts killing a barrel is up in the air, lots of variables.
JB paste or flitz will turn the blackest barrel shiny as a new fancy spoon with a few strokes.
I respectfully disagree, but for your level of fouling the method with your cleaners are obviously working well for you. JB is good, JB Borebrite
( https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-c....aspx?rrec=true)
is a tad more agressive. Flitz and Iosso are a tad more agressive even yet. I make up some solutions with two different grades of Al Oxide(1000 and 1400 grit), then Brownells sells the ultimate for guys that shoot 50 BMG long range that is a silicone carbide paste:
600 grit stock number-043-045-600
800 Grit stock number 043-045-800
F class shooters, p. dog shooters have one heck of a time keeping the carbon out of their barrels. Powder types contribute heavily on how hard carbon is cooked on, consult a heat index table for powder types, not be confused with Burn Rate chart.
It has not been until the last two years that shooters as a whole have become more educated in to how to clean their barrels due to the inexpensive Lyman bore scope. I think that we will take quantum leaps in cleaning procedures and techniques over the next 5 years.
Remember that this is a hobby, take it to the level that makes you satisfied.
Back during the p. dog wars, I shot a lot of h335 in the 223, 6ppc, 22 ppc, 6br, 6BRX, and 6 Dasher. I shot 300 rounds as fast as I could lock and load, then cleaned. With H322, AA2015, LT32 I shot only 125 round strings due to carbon rings. Obviously, the H335 burned a LOT cooler and fouled less than other powders.
Powder types, amount of powder used with bore dia have a dramatic impact on carbon build up.
I put 10,000 rounds on one 6 ppc, and 8000+ on a couple of 6 BR's using H335, you can cut that number by 1/2 going to H322, at least.
The barrels were fire cracked pretty badly, leade shot out, but still grouped in the two's for multiple five shot groups. Copper fouling was getting to be tough to deal with, so new tubes were put on.
The last outing with the 6PPC, I put 600 hard rounds on the barrel. I had to pull the rod with a good bronze brush through the bore, hard to impossible push it through with a load of 30.5g of 2230-S which was a non canister fast lot of H335.
These conversations always boil down between people that do not like to clean and people that do like to clean, so just pick a camp and be happy.
JB paste or flitz will turn the blackest barrel shiny as a new fancy spoon with a few strokes.
I respectfully disagree, but for your level of fouling the method with your cleaners are obviously working well for you. JB is good, JB Borebrite
( https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-c....aspx?rrec=true)
is a tad more agressive. Flitz and Iosso are a tad more agressive even yet. I make up some solutions with two different grades of Al Oxide(1000 and 1400 grit), then Brownells sells the ultimate for guys that shoot 50 BMG long range that is a silicone carbide paste:
600 grit stock number-043-045-600
800 Grit stock number 043-045-800
F class shooters, p. dog shooters have one heck of a time keeping the carbon out of their barrels. Powder types contribute heavily on how hard carbon is cooked on, consult a heat index table for powder types, not be confused with Burn Rate chart.
It has not been until the last two years that shooters as a whole have become more educated in to how to clean their barrels due to the inexpensive Lyman bore scope. I think that we will take quantum leaps in cleaning procedures and techniques over the next 5 years.
Remember that this is a hobby, take it to the level that makes you satisfied.
Back during the p. dog wars, I shot a lot of h335 in the 223, 6ppc, 22 ppc, 6br, 6BRX, and 6 Dasher. I shot 300 rounds as fast as I could lock and load, then cleaned. With H322, AA2015, LT32 I shot only 125 round strings due to carbon rings. Obviously, the H335 burned a LOT cooler and fouled less than other powders.
Powder types, amount of powder used with bore dia have a dramatic impact on carbon build up.
I put 10,000 rounds on one 6 ppc, and 8000+ on a couple of 6 BR's using H335, you can cut that number by 1/2 going to H322, at least.
The barrels were fire cracked pretty badly, leade shot out, but still grouped in the two's for multiple five shot groups. Copper fouling was getting to be tough to deal with, so new tubes were put on.
The last outing with the 6PPC, I put 600 hard rounds on the barrel. I had to pull the rod with a good bronze brush through the bore, hard to impossible push it through with a load of 30.5g of 2230-S which was a non canister fast lot of H335.
These conversations always boil down between people that do not like to clean and people that do like to clean, so just pick a camp and be happy.
I suppose one could be offended with Orkan's specific style of communication, but why not just read it and move on. I appreciate his knowledge, envy his toy budget, but it's all good.
The most horrible carbon fouling I've encountered is using the IMR stick powders in both varmint and hunting barrels. That black shellac left behind in some barrels is enough to send one to the load bench for a newer/better answer. For sure, certain barrels are more fussy, but I only clean em if it is really evident it's time.
The most horrible carbon fouling I've encountered is using the IMR stick powders in both varmint and hunting barrels. That black shellac left behind in some barrels is enough to send one to the load bench for a newer/better answer. For sure, certain barrels are more fussy, but I only clean em if it is really evident it's time.
Before bore scopes were available and affordable, what did we all worry about?
My go to deer rifle shoots best with about 10 rounds of fouling, factory Remington 700.
I am like others and can’t bring myself to store it for 11 months dirty.
After I run my fouling ammo through it I drag a bore snake down the barrel and that is good for the season. When I store it I do wipeout followed with a patch of denatured alcohol and another with Kroil.
That has worked for 30 years in the particular rifle. If it ain’t broke........
On wipeout I think it may actually get a bore squeaky clean. That IMO is not a good thing to a point. Have a 270 that loves fouling I do very little to it.
Kinda like women, some like candy others like flowers.
My go to deer rifle shoots best with about 10 rounds of fouling, factory Remington 700.
I am like others and can’t bring myself to store it for 11 months dirty.
After I run my fouling ammo through it I drag a bore snake down the barrel and that is good for the season. When I store it I do wipeout followed with a patch of denatured alcohol and another with Kroil.
That has worked for 30 years in the particular rifle. If it ain’t broke........
On wipeout I think it may actually get a bore squeaky clean. That IMO is not a good thing to a point. Have a 270 that loves fouling I do very little to it.
Kinda like women, some like candy others like flowers.
Varminterror
New member
I run 400-600 rounds on my match rifles before cleaning. By then, it’s really the dust and the gritty action feel which makes me want to clean, not how the rifle is shooting. After 700 rounds, I might see a barrel which shoots .1-.3moa groups open up to .2-.4. Cleaning also means a velocity loss, since 6 creeds and Dashers eat barrels for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
What I have seen, however, is the better the rifle I’m holding, and the better tuned the load, the less any of it matters. My clean bore fouling shots hit within .1mil of my fouled bore groups. My speed picks up for 5-10 rounds after cleaning, only by a few FPS, then it levels out. Inconsequential for a hunting rifle, barely significant for a precision competition rifle.
Most hunters are afraid of what carbon left in the barrel all year might do. So they live in a state of “clean rifles.” It’s certainly true, a deer hunter’s rifle might expect ill effects if left 600 rounds without cleaning, simply because that might involve three generations of hunters, maybe even five. Failing to clean a rifle for a century sure seems negligent to me, as it does to most. But a match rifle might swallow 600 rounds in a month. Some of us do, indeed, put enough rounds downrange frequently enough to know the difference in these paradigms.
What I have seen, however, is the better the rifle I’m holding, and the better tuned the load, the less any of it matters. My clean bore fouling shots hit within .1mil of my fouled bore groups. My speed picks up for 5-10 rounds after cleaning, only by a few FPS, then it levels out. Inconsequential for a hunting rifle, barely significant for a precision competition rifle.
Most hunters are afraid of what carbon left in the barrel all year might do. So they live in a state of “clean rifles.” It’s certainly true, a deer hunter’s rifle might expect ill effects if left 600 rounds without cleaning, simply because that might involve three generations of hunters, maybe even five. Failing to clean a rifle for a century sure seems negligent to me, as it does to most. But a match rifle might swallow 600 rounds in a month. Some of us do, indeed, put enough rounds downrange frequently enough to know the difference in these paradigms.
JoeyJ
New member
A lot of people clean their rifles after every outing but a lot of those rifle barrels are never cleaned of their copper fouling. After 3K to 6K rounds (if they ever shoot that much) they will see their accuracy go south - clean the barrel of all the copper fouling and you'll be back in business again. Unless your cooking the throat, a barrel is good for well over 10K rounds unless you're looking for sub MOA on demand, which is fine, as long as you mainly shoot from a bench over bags.
Unless you shoot benchrest or other competitive shooting disciplines I doubt you'll notice an accuracy degrading from not cleaning a barrel for several hundred or more rounds. I shot with a guy who cleaned his 1911 once a year, whether it needed it or not. He fired maybe 500 to 600 rounds a week with that 1911 using 185 grain cast behind Bullseye powder and was fairly consistence at breaking 2600 on match day. That pistol seemed to be abused but still shot better than he could hold.
The OP noticed an accuracy change in his groups after several rounds - but - his charge weight was different so I would hazard a guess that his rifle liked the higher powder charges and probably had nothing to do with barrel fouling.
Unless you shoot benchrest or other competitive shooting disciplines I doubt you'll notice an accuracy degrading from not cleaning a barrel for several hundred or more rounds. I shot with a guy who cleaned his 1911 once a year, whether it needed it or not. He fired maybe 500 to 600 rounds a week with that 1911 using 185 grain cast behind Bullseye powder and was fairly consistence at breaking 2600 on match day. That pistol seemed to be abused but still shot better than he could hold.
The OP noticed an accuracy change in his groups after several rounds - but - his charge weight was different so I would hazard a guess that his rifle liked the higher powder charges and probably had nothing to do with barrel fouling.
Originally Posted By: JoeyJ
The OP noticed an accuracy change in his groups after several rounds - but - his charge weight was different so I would hazard a guess that his rifle liked the higher powder charges and probably had nothing to do with barrel fouling.
Thank You, thats all I was asking in the beginning.
The OP noticed an accuracy change in his groups after several rounds - but - his charge weight was different so I would hazard a guess that his rifle liked the higher powder charges and probably had nothing to do with barrel fouling.
Thank You, thats all I was asking in the beginning.
Varminterror
New member
Originally Posted By: JoeyJA lot of people clean their rifles after every outing but a lot of those rifle barrels are never cleaned of their copper fouling. After 3K to 6K rounds (if they ever shoot that much) they will see their accuracy go south - clean the barrel of all the copper fouling and you'll be back in business again. Unless your cooking the throat, a barrel is good for well over 10K rounds unless you're looking for sub MOA on demand, which is fine, as long as you mainly shoot from a bench over bags.
In my experience, these are absolute gross exaggerations of barrel life. The 3k, 6k, and 10k expectations discussed here might be applicable to a 223rem, but really hardly there, and certainly don't apply to more overbore cartridges. If you're talking about some mil-spec standard for a 2moa rifle slipping to a 4moa rifle at 10k rounds, then fine, but you're talking about the equivalent of wearing holes through the soles of your shoes before buying new.
When I was shooting Service Rifle, cut rifled barrels would go about 4000-4500 before they'd no longer hold 1MOA, starting about 1/2MOA, and my precision match rifle in 6 creedmoor only hangs on for about 1500rnds before it needs to be replaced. That's slipping from 1/4moa to 1moa, and losing a couple hundred feet per second in velocity. Nothing in the world would make that barrel last past 3k rounds, certainly not 6k or 10k.
Even 308win, a relatively barrel friendly round, the short while that I shot Palma, would tank a barrel beyond serviceable life within 4000rounds, and most guys would replace around 3000 rounds such they didn't get stuck with the rifle dying during a match.
When they start to go, it happens quickly. My match rifle last season started losing ~15fps per 100rnds starting at about 700 rounds and was losing ~35fps per 100rnds at the last match I shot with it at 1400 rounds.
I have an AR barrel with 20k rounds on it, which probably hasn't been cleaned since 10k. It started life as a 1.5moa chrome lined, rack grade mil-spec barrel, and sure, it still goes bang at 20k, but it's a lie to say that barrel isn't long dead, since it's spitting 4-5moa groups with the same ammo.
In my experience, these are absolute gross exaggerations of barrel life. The 3k, 6k, and 10k expectations discussed here might be applicable to a 223rem, but really hardly there, and certainly don't apply to more overbore cartridges. If you're talking about some mil-spec standard for a 2moa rifle slipping to a 4moa rifle at 10k rounds, then fine, but you're talking about the equivalent of wearing holes through the soles of your shoes before buying new.
When I was shooting Service Rifle, cut rifled barrels would go about 4000-4500 before they'd no longer hold 1MOA, starting about 1/2MOA, and my precision match rifle in 6 creedmoor only hangs on for about 1500rnds before it needs to be replaced. That's slipping from 1/4moa to 1moa, and losing a couple hundred feet per second in velocity. Nothing in the world would make that barrel last past 3k rounds, certainly not 6k or 10k.
Even 308win, a relatively barrel friendly round, the short while that I shot Palma, would tank a barrel beyond serviceable life within 4000rounds, and most guys would replace around 3000 rounds such they didn't get stuck with the rifle dying during a match.
When they start to go, it happens quickly. My match rifle last season started losing ~15fps per 100rnds starting at about 700 rounds and was losing ~35fps per 100rnds at the last match I shot with it at 1400 rounds.
I have an AR barrel with 20k rounds on it, which probably hasn't been cleaned since 10k. It started life as a 1.5moa chrome lined, rack grade mil-spec barrel, and sure, it still goes bang at 20k, but it's a lie to say that barrel isn't long dead, since it's spitting 4-5moa groups with the same ammo.
JoeyJ
New member
Originally Posted By: Varminterror Originally Posted By: JoeyJA lot of people clean their rifles after every outing but a lot of those rifle barrels are never cleaned of their copper fouling. After 3K to 6K rounds (if they ever shoot that much) they will see their accuracy go south - clean the barrel of all the copper fouling and you'll be back in business again. Unless your cooking the throat, a barrel is good for well over 10K rounds unless you're looking for sub MOA on demand, which is fine, as long as you mainly shoot from a bench over bags.
In my experience, these are absolute gross exaggerations of barrel life. The 3k, 6k, and 10k expectations discussed here might be applicable to a 223rem, but really hardly there, and certainly don't apply to more overbore cartridges. If you're talking about some mil-spec standard for a 2moa rifle slipping to a 4moa rifle at 10k rounds, then fine, but you're talking about the equivalent of wearing holes through the soles of your shoes before buying new.
When I was shooting Service Rifle, cut rifled barrels would go about 4000-4500 before they'd no longer hold 1MOA, starting about 1/2MOA, and my precision match rifle in 6 creedmoor only hangs on for about 1500rnds before it needs to be replaced. That's slipping from 1/4moa to 1moa, and losing a couple hundred feet per second in velocity. Nothing in the world would make that barrel last past 3k rounds, certainly not 6k or 10k.
Even 308win, a relatively barrel friendly round, the short while that I shot Palma, would tank a barrel beyond serviceable life within 4000rounds, and most guys would replace around 3000 rounds such they didn't get stuck with the rifle dying during a match.
When they start to go, it happens quickly. My match rifle last season started losing ~15fps per 100rnds starting at about 700 rounds and was losing ~35fps per 100rnds at the last match I shot with it at 1400 rounds.
I have an AR barrel with 20k rounds on it, which probably hasn't been cleaned since 10k. It started life as a 1.5moa chrome lined, rack grade mil-spec barrel, and sure, it still goes bang at 20k, but it's a lie to say that barrel isn't long dead, since it's spitting 4-5moa groups with the same ammo.
I'm thinking you're talking from the point of being a competitor, which is what I tried to alluded to in my last sentence shooting from a bench sub MOA groups. I'm thinking you read my post as a competitor, not as someone who purchased a rifle and keeps it for several decades and hands it down to a grandson.
I was referring basically to "hunting rifles" which are also shot throughout the year target practicing for a couple decades. Shooting 250 rounds on average for 25 years gets 6,250 rounds down the barrel. Cleaning with regular Hoppe's probably didn't do much for the copper buildup. There were some barrel makers and gunsmiths that offered "barrel rejuvenation service" which was nothing more than a through barrel cleaning.
Most "hunters" I'm familiar with don't shoot much more than 500 rounds a year, if that, and occasionally shoot a 1/2 inch 3-shot group from a 2 MOA rifle by wiggling and wobbling just right. That rifle takes a deer every year, providing he sees a deer every year. No different that a lot of folks purchasing a handgun for self defense and taking it to the range for practice and sight-in. Putting 15 rounds into a big man's torso target at 15 feet with a group the size of a bushel basket is good enough. I agree, it's good enough, but some of us need to put all rounds into 3" at 25 yards to be happy with our pistol/revolver. Just different ways to looking at things from one's perspective I guess.
I've heard of top benchrest shooters changing their barrel out after 1,000 rounds or a tad less, as that particular barrel was "shot out" by their standards. I only wished I could shoot half as good as they could from a bench, judging the conditions.
You know your ability and what you require from a rifle to meet your expectations. Being a competitor you have certain standards that your equipment must meet - I too was a competitor in both rifle and pistol and had my equipment goals - which cost me some money but at least it gave me peace of mind when I walked to the line knowing my equipment was up to the task of taking top honors. I was a State Champion in Heavy Varmint one time/year (1984) - and I know the reason and it was because I was never caught in an unseen wind change and all the other top shooters were caught once and that's all the advantage I needed, as without that wind fluke, I would have been just another competitor in the State Meet.
In my experience, these are absolute gross exaggerations of barrel life. The 3k, 6k, and 10k expectations discussed here might be applicable to a 223rem, but really hardly there, and certainly don't apply to more overbore cartridges. If you're talking about some mil-spec standard for a 2moa rifle slipping to a 4moa rifle at 10k rounds, then fine, but you're talking about the equivalent of wearing holes through the soles of your shoes before buying new.
When I was shooting Service Rifle, cut rifled barrels would go about 4000-4500 before they'd no longer hold 1MOA, starting about 1/2MOA, and my precision match rifle in 6 creedmoor only hangs on for about 1500rnds before it needs to be replaced. That's slipping from 1/4moa to 1moa, and losing a couple hundred feet per second in velocity. Nothing in the world would make that barrel last past 3k rounds, certainly not 6k or 10k.
Even 308win, a relatively barrel friendly round, the short while that I shot Palma, would tank a barrel beyond serviceable life within 4000rounds, and most guys would replace around 3000 rounds such they didn't get stuck with the rifle dying during a match.
When they start to go, it happens quickly. My match rifle last season started losing ~15fps per 100rnds starting at about 700 rounds and was losing ~35fps per 100rnds at the last match I shot with it at 1400 rounds.
I have an AR barrel with 20k rounds on it, which probably hasn't been cleaned since 10k. It started life as a 1.5moa chrome lined, rack grade mil-spec barrel, and sure, it still goes bang at 20k, but it's a lie to say that barrel isn't long dead, since it's spitting 4-5moa groups with the same ammo.
I'm thinking you're talking from the point of being a competitor, which is what I tried to alluded to in my last sentence shooting from a bench sub MOA groups. I'm thinking you read my post as a competitor, not as someone who purchased a rifle and keeps it for several decades and hands it down to a grandson.
I was referring basically to "hunting rifles" which are also shot throughout the year target practicing for a couple decades. Shooting 250 rounds on average for 25 years gets 6,250 rounds down the barrel. Cleaning with regular Hoppe's probably didn't do much for the copper buildup. There were some barrel makers and gunsmiths that offered "barrel rejuvenation service" which was nothing more than a through barrel cleaning.
Most "hunters" I'm familiar with don't shoot much more than 500 rounds a year, if that, and occasionally shoot a 1/2 inch 3-shot group from a 2 MOA rifle by wiggling and wobbling just right. That rifle takes a deer every year, providing he sees a deer every year. No different that a lot of folks purchasing a handgun for self defense and taking it to the range for practice and sight-in. Putting 15 rounds into a big man's torso target at 15 feet with a group the size of a bushel basket is good enough. I agree, it's good enough, but some of us need to put all rounds into 3" at 25 yards to be happy with our pistol/revolver. Just different ways to looking at things from one's perspective I guess.
I've heard of top benchrest shooters changing their barrel out after 1,000 rounds or a tad less, as that particular barrel was "shot out" by their standards. I only wished I could shoot half as good as they could from a bench, judging the conditions.
You know your ability and what you require from a rifle to meet your expectations. Being a competitor you have certain standards that your equipment must meet - I too was a competitor in both rifle and pistol and had my equipment goals - which cost me some money but at least it gave me peace of mind when I walked to the line knowing my equipment was up to the task of taking top honors. I was a State Champion in Heavy Varmint one time/year (1984) - and I know the reason and it was because I was never caught in an unseen wind change and all the other top shooters were caught once and that's all the advantage I needed, as without that wind fluke, I would have been just another competitor in the State Meet.
Hard to put a certain round count life expectancy, as it varies from shooter to shooter. Accuracy requirements vary depending upon the game.
Shooting NRA XTC highpower matches (w/iron sights), I expected to get around 7500 rounds with mild 30-06 ammo, and did so w/three different barrels over the years. My criteria was, when a barrel throws a flier outside 1.75 MOA, it cannot be relied upon to clean the NM course (200,300,600) and was replaced. ("Throwing a flier" defined as a shot outside the called POI.)
Regards,
hm
Shooting NRA XTC highpower matches (w/iron sights), I expected to get around 7500 rounds with mild 30-06 ammo, and did so w/three different barrels over the years. My criteria was, when a barrel throws a flier outside 1.75 MOA, it cannot be relied upon to clean the NM course (200,300,600) and was replaced. ("Throwing a flier" defined as a shot outside the called POI.)
Regards,
hm
Originally Posted By: ackleymanI wish that everyone reading this could buy a Lyman bore scope.
Though there are better borescopes out there, I have been more than happy with my Lyman scope ever since I bought it and to be honest, couldn't imagine being without it.
I think if you own a cleaning rod, you should also own a borescope and for the money, the Lyman is hard to beat.
Though there are better borescopes out there, I have been more than happy with my Lyman scope ever since I bought it and to be honest, couldn't imagine being without it.
I think if you own a cleaning rod, you should also own a borescope and for the money, the Lyman is hard to beat.
Varminterror
New member
@joeyj - I described several barrels in various cartridges, and the respective definitions for “worn out” I have used with them. Yes, I have burned out barrels in competition rifles. Yes, I have burned out barrels in prairie dog rifles. I mentioned the standards I have applied for different applications of “worn out.”
Running a barrel to 10,000 rounds is like driving until your tires all blew off, and your kept driving on the rim. I don’t care what centerfire cartridge we’re taking about, at 10k, the barrel is toast. You’re losing velocity like crazy, and spraying groups 3-5 times as large as when it was new. I took my first competition 3 gun AR to about 10,000, the barrel was completely toast after about 5,000, but it still hit the targets I needed to hit. It was BARELY within what I’d consider ethically accurate enough for hunting.
I had a 243win AI hunting rifle which never saw a prairie dog town, nor a competition firing line. The barrel was smoked after about 10 years of simply hunting coyotes, pigs, deer, and occasional target practice. I’m certain it wouldn’t have been suitable for competition after a mere 700-900 rounds, like my competition 243AI’s, but for coyote hunting, the tolerance was much greater - so it made it to about 2500 rounds. A barrel which was once a 3/4moa rifle was spitting 2-3” groups on its best days, and was bleeding velocity like crazy. If I never shot a deer past 100yrds, sure, it still went bang and a bullet came out of the end, and a 3” group will kill a coyote at 100yrds, but again - we were driving on the rims at that point.
I had an F-150 make it to 440,000 miles. It drank a half quart of oil with every tank of fuel, got terrible gas mileage, the seats were broken in to the point of breaking, the radio screen didn’t work, the interior light wiring didn’t work, and the steering had a lot of play before it’d actually start turning. But it rolled down the road under its own power until it just didn’t leave a stop sign on a country highway one night. She was worn out for at least 50,000 miles at that point, and probably should have been replaced 100,000 miles before that. That doesn’t mean F-150’s should last 440,000 miles, it just means I could tolerate how ridiculously worn out she was for a long time after it happened.
So you can pretend that blurring the line between chronology and round count is important, but it’s really not. Taking any centerfire barrel past 5,000 rounds without extreme losses in accuracy and velocity stability is exceptionally rare, and it really just doesn’t happen in overbore cartridges. 7mm mags, 243win, 220 Swift, etc - they’ll eat barrels in a couple decades, even for a hunter running limited use - even considering a very forgiving standard for accuracy.
Running a barrel to 10,000 rounds is like driving until your tires all blew off, and your kept driving on the rim. I don’t care what centerfire cartridge we’re taking about, at 10k, the barrel is toast. You’re losing velocity like crazy, and spraying groups 3-5 times as large as when it was new. I took my first competition 3 gun AR to about 10,000, the barrel was completely toast after about 5,000, but it still hit the targets I needed to hit. It was BARELY within what I’d consider ethically accurate enough for hunting.
I had a 243win AI hunting rifle which never saw a prairie dog town, nor a competition firing line. The barrel was smoked after about 10 years of simply hunting coyotes, pigs, deer, and occasional target practice. I’m certain it wouldn’t have been suitable for competition after a mere 700-900 rounds, like my competition 243AI’s, but for coyote hunting, the tolerance was much greater - so it made it to about 2500 rounds. A barrel which was once a 3/4moa rifle was spitting 2-3” groups on its best days, and was bleeding velocity like crazy. If I never shot a deer past 100yrds, sure, it still went bang and a bullet came out of the end, and a 3” group will kill a coyote at 100yrds, but again - we were driving on the rims at that point.
I had an F-150 make it to 440,000 miles. It drank a half quart of oil with every tank of fuel, got terrible gas mileage, the seats were broken in to the point of breaking, the radio screen didn’t work, the interior light wiring didn’t work, and the steering had a lot of play before it’d actually start turning. But it rolled down the road under its own power until it just didn’t leave a stop sign on a country highway one night. She was worn out for at least 50,000 miles at that point, and probably should have been replaced 100,000 miles before that. That doesn’t mean F-150’s should last 440,000 miles, it just means I could tolerate how ridiculously worn out she was for a long time after it happened.
So you can pretend that blurring the line between chronology and round count is important, but it’s really not. Taking any centerfire barrel past 5,000 rounds without extreme losses in accuracy and velocity stability is exceptionally rare, and it really just doesn’t happen in overbore cartridges. 7mm mags, 243win, 220 Swift, etc - they’ll eat barrels in a couple decades, even for a hunter running limited use - even considering a very forgiving standard for accuracy.
The only exception that I have seen to Varminterror post is with the 6 PPC using AA2230-S, and a 6 BR using H335 or AA2230. Barrel life in 12-14 Twist barrels shooting 70g and under bullets is simply beyond belief.
Accuracy standards for these rifles was still in the high 2's when I screwed the barrel off, but cleaning them was a bear.
Velocity loss with the same load as Varminterror is correct. After each 2000 rounds, I verified accuracy, and usually had to add .5g more powder to get back to the velocity where the accuracy node was so good. For instance, in the 6 PPC at 8000 rounds, I had to increase the powder charge from the 1000 round mark where the accuracy load was 30.0 to 32.5g at the 8000 round mark.
More intense over bore cases eat barrels like you are shooting battery acid for powder. Flame temps of powder, kernel size, heat duration all come into play.
Some calibers will shoot well jumping bullets, but there is a point of no return. When a barrel reaches a wear point where the bullets are getting started crooked in the barrel, accuracy will diminish at various levels. At what point the accuracy is no good for your use, well that is up to you.
Accuracy standards for these rifles was still in the high 2's when I screwed the barrel off, but cleaning them was a bear.
Velocity loss with the same load as Varminterror is correct. After each 2000 rounds, I verified accuracy, and usually had to add .5g more powder to get back to the velocity where the accuracy node was so good. For instance, in the 6 PPC at 8000 rounds, I had to increase the powder charge from the 1000 round mark where the accuracy load was 30.0 to 32.5g at the 8000 round mark.
More intense over bore cases eat barrels like you are shooting battery acid for powder. Flame temps of powder, kernel size, heat duration all come into play.
Some calibers will shoot well jumping bullets, but there is a point of no return. When a barrel reaches a wear point where the bullets are getting started crooked in the barrel, accuracy will diminish at various levels. At what point the accuracy is no good for your use, well that is up to you.
Can’t add much to this but have one story. When I first got heavy into prairie dogs I had two 22-250’s. One a total factory 788 and a Roger 77 with a Douglas barrel. I used same load for both, H380 and either Hornady or Nosler bullets. The 788 was slightly more accurate than the Ruger but call them both 1/2 inch until about 25 rounds with the 788 and 50 rounds with the Ruger. They both opened to close to an inch. I fire lapped both and the 788 would 50 rounds before starting to open. The Ruger would go well past 100
orkan
Active member
Originally Posted By: VarminterrorRunning a barrel to 10,000 rounds is like driving until your tires all blew off, and your kept driving on the rim. I don’t care what centerfire cartridge we’re taking about, at 10k, the barrel is toast. You’re losing velocity like crazy, and spraying groups 3-5 times as large as when it was new.
There are cartridges that do not fit your description here. A 308win comes to mind. However, many cartridges do fit your description.
There are cartridges that do not fit your description here. A 308win comes to mind. However, many cartridges do fit your description.