I am with you. I have 4 223's 2 22-250's, and a 17 Fireball. I run a wet patch with Montana Extreme, soak a nylon brush, run 15 to 20 times, wet patch with Montana, wet patch with Hydrogen Peroxide, dry patch 3 or 4 times, but the patches is never really clean, always have black streaks. Finish with Butch's bore oil, 1 patch, and 1 dry patch. I have used all different kinds of cleaners, but is always the same. Sometimes I use Copper cleaner. These rifles have been fired a lot, so the bore's should be real smooth. They all group in the 2's to 6's depending on the rifle.