Colorado Fur Trapper Assoc... Sucks...

elks

New member
Well in our battle to legalize e-callers approved for hunting lions in Colorado. The largest and most outspoken person against the issue was the Mr. Gates from Fur trapper Association.

While he supports the use of hounds and bait, he claimed that using an e-caller was against the idea of fair chase. He claimed that passing this law would make the general public see the use as not fair chase and would eventually end all lion hunting in Colorado. We had gained support from some other entities, but they all backed off after Mr. Gates threatened to fight this with all the Organizations resources and money.

Needless to say, I will no longer support the organization at all. they failed us in the 90s and are continuing to fail us today.
 
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Well, they have not been successful in keeping trapping in CO, so why does that surprise me?

As I have said many times, we are our OWN worst enemy by dividing the ranks. When a fellow hunter sells you out, and offers "expert" tetimony when they are NOT an expert, everyone loses.

Barry
 
Is Mr Gates top dog in the Fur Trappers Association? How do other members feel? Where does the CO Game & Fish stand on this issue? Does CO have a strong cat population? What makes dogs &/or traps more 'fair' than an e-caller? If enough people want the e-callers maybe some signatures would help sway him/them. I hate rules that have no basis in facts and reason. Are e-callers legal in CO for use with other game, if so what are the facts and figures(if any) on those animals?---Ben Jimmy
 
That makes no sense at all. If there were some facts and figures put together on call in percentages when calling lions with an ecaller -vs- lets say, hunting them with hounds, I believe there were be a huge eye opener on what is "fair chase" and what is not.

Tony
 
Originally Posted By: Ben JimmyIs Mr Gates top dog in the Fur Trappers Association? How do other members feel? Where does the CO Game & Fish stand on this issue? Does CO have a strong cat population? What makes dogs &/or traps more 'fair' than an e-caller? If enough people want the e-callers maybe some signatures would help sway him/them. I hate rules that have no basis in facts and reason. Are e-callers legal in CO for use with other game, if so what are the facts and figures(if any) on those animals?---Ben Jimmy

Gates is the VP for the fur trapper association. We had lots of signatures and have had several people write in support of the use of e-callers. The cat population in our state is very healthy, in many areas it is too high. IE the photos of the lion on a person deck in boulder that was trying to eat the house cat, the boy attacked and killed in the early 2000s by a lion outside Ft. Collins, the you tube video of a lion taking a deer in the road in front of a running video, etc.

The state here bends way too far to the liberals and as a result we are slowly loosing opportunity. Instead of holding a firm line they slowly give in.

Again heaven forbid that we increase opportunity. The only real concern I agreed with, was the concern about killing female cats. While the practice is not illegal by any means the DOW again folded to the animal lib groups and now requires all lion hunter to a take a test identifying cats. Male or female. Balls no balls. I am pretty certain I could identify the board as the later.

I am just really upset that non of them are looking at it with realistic eyes. Allowing ecalls is not all of the sudden going to decrease the cat population. The hunting of cats in Colorado is on a quote system. Everyday before you hunt you call in to make sure the quota If it is the unit/area is shut down. Why not just put a quota of 1 female cat per area. then in the very rare case a caller calls and kills a cat. The area is shut down to calling and spot stalk, and left only for treeing hounds etc.

It is all about politics and feeling good. Not about hunting opportunity, management etc. It is about not making the non hunting public mad, but about slowly caving in and giving up our freedoms as hunters.

I could go on and on. On the flip side I feel like getting out the hand calls and killing a young female lion just to spite them.
Using ecalls is OK for predatory animals. Fox, Bobcats, Coyotes etc.

While the lion is a predatory animal in the state of colorado it classified as big game. thus not legal to use an ecall at all. had the lion been put on the predatory list it would not matter.

Since I use hand calls it does not matter at all either. the worse part is I was told that if I had a lion and was predator calling that I am not even allowed to have an ecall with me. It would be considered illegal and I could get a ticket. So I either do not get a lion tag, or I do not have an ecaller... It is really just silly in all manners.
 
I can't abide stupidity like that. If I lived there I'd fight it just on principle. It is real easy to hide a diaphragm call. HaHa. I sure wish y'all luck getting some of those laws changed. Ya can't afford to give up! One good thing about living out in the sticks is we don't have near so many dumb-gooders. If you get lucky enough to get a cat, I guess you could suddenly decide to throw that e-caller away. 'Course you could change your mind and go back and find it in a few days. I might be a bad influence, so pay me no mind.---Ben Jimmy
 
your post made me laugh hysterically out loud, thank you, awful day, BUT, its content has made me mad. We are our own worst enemy indeed.
 
As the NE Director for the CTA, this post obviously caught my eye. So, I called the president for some clarification to make sure I had my information correct.

Yes, Dan gates is the vice president of the Colorado Trappers Association. However he was not speaking on behalf of the Colorado Trappers Association. He was either speaking for himself or for the Colorado Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. This is an organization that he is also on the board of.

As far as an official position from the CTA, at the fall meeting, the organization decided not to take a position on this issue. This was expressed by our president at the Division meeting in Colorado Springs.

I would ask the original poster how he came to believe that Dan Gates was representing the CTA? Was he wearing something that identified him as such? Did he express that as part of the testimony he gave?

If any further clarification is needed, contact information for the CTA is at coloradotrapper.com.
 
On the flip side I feel like getting out the hand calls and killing a young female lion just to spite them.




Classic.




Simon
 
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Quote:As far as an official position from the CTA, at the fall meeting, the organization decided not to take a position on this issue. This was expressed by our president at the Division meeting in Colorado Springs.

With all due respect, I was at both meetings and I specifically recall Otis stating (respectfully) that the CTA was opposed to the petition "in it's current form". Dan Gates did in fact identify himself at that meeting as VP of the CTA as well as stated his affiliation with SFW before opposing the petition.

At today's meeting, no one, including Mr.Gates, identified themselves as being from or representing the CTA. Dan and TJ Best were there representing SFW.

Truth be known, I have no hard feelings toward the CTA. They are a good group of guys and I respect them for having a presence AT the meeting, even if they did not see it our way.

I understand the frustration of this whole thing better than anyone. I appreciate the help of those who wrote and signed petitions etc, but the fact is, no one showed up for the meetings. There were three of us at the first meeting and two at the second. Turns out we brought a knife to a gun fight and got our azzes handed to us. Turning on each other wont change that. If you need someone to be mad at, be mad at me for trying to pull this off without unity and support.


The CTA was clearly opposed to the petition in the first meeting. I was told that in the hallway before the statement was made and heard the statement made with my own ears in the meeting. There is no denying that. I think that is a source of anger among some of us. I recommend handling it differently than this.


Even if the CTA did not support the petition, they are still brothers in arms for the most part and should be treated accordingly.

Sorry if I ruffled feathers, but that's where I stand.

I appreciate the concern guys, but it's over. The Commission voted the petition down unanimously based on the recommendations of Division staff. The main concern was excessive female harvest.
 
It is a darn shame that people make decisions that can swing so far in the wrong direction. E callers are fair chase, dogs are a specialized weapon. They are trained to trail that scent, and they do really well. The problem is that the outfitters stand to lose alot of profit if they can't take clients out. Imagine they are getting payed 5000 to put a guy on a cat, how much are you paying for your license?

Now don't get me wrong here, I am disagreeing with the fact that they aren't letting you use an e caller. I have no beef with any outfitter or a houndsmen doing what they love to do and provide a living for their family.

Hunting has gone by the wayside, money has taken over and it is now a business.

Elks, come on down buddy, we can use them e callers here. I have been dying to try and get another shot at one.
 
Well, this is kid of a tuffy for me. I know this is sure to ruffle some feathers, but I don't think its such a big deal. You can still use hand calls right? And this is a standing law correct? So nothing is being taken away from you. There will always be game laws. If the cats are considered big game then I would expect the laws to be different. There are lots of stated that you can legally use a spotlight to kill predators, but I don't know of any that you can use a spotlight to kill dear, or elk.

If they were trying to take something away, or revoke your rights I would be behind you all the way, and still am for that matter, and if its something you are passionate about, then I say press on and best of luck to you, but keep in mind that game laws will always be in place, and I fear the day there are none.
 
Quote:With all due respect, I was at both meetings and I specifically recall Otis stating (respectfully) that the CTA was opposed to the petition "in it's current form".

The exact verbiage may have been "do not support this in it's current form." Which would in fact be fairly neutral. I admit I don't recall every word.

Quote:The CTA was clearly opposed to the petition in the first meeting.

Perhaps this should have been stated "was clearly not in support of..."

Sorry to flounder, just racking my brain trying to be accurate.
 
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Originally Posted By: cornstalker

With all due respect, I was at both meetings and I specifically recall Otis stating (respectfully) that the CTA was opposed to the petition "in it's current form". Dan Gates did in fact identify himself at that meeting as VP of the CTA as well as stated his affiliation with SFW before opposing the petition.





I was not at the meeting and without transcripts, I will choose not to respond to this as I do not have any first hand knowledge. I was at the meeting where it was discussed by the CTA and will stand by the idea that there was no official position taken.

Unfortunately for all of us, working with the commission is not always easy. As an example, the first time when the CTA had petitioned for the addition of some species to the furbearer list such as red fox, I sat in the room and heard the DOW biologist clearly state that there was no biological reason not to allow taking grey foxes and that harvest would have no real effect on population. Then he clearly stated that he was against their addition to the furbearer list for political reasons. WHAT The guys that are supposed to be providing opportunities for sportsmen and women turning their backs on us.
 
So, my only affiliation/knowledge with Gates was in regards to him being a member of the CTA. Had no idea who else he was affiliated with. All I know is the bill that would have allowed maybe 2 lions a year state wide got shot down.

As for the big deal? Have a lion at 8 yards tuned into your ready to eat, then ask the question, would I rather have the lion ready to pounce on my e-caller 20 yards away? the answer is clear. I am more offended by the fact that using an ecaller is not considered fair chase.

I am also pissed that the only 2 meetingd inwhich the issue was discussed were on the other 1/2 of the state. A 6 and 8 hour drive for me. I would have shown up.

As far as shooting lions on a caller. an ecaller affords a person at least some opportunity to look a lion over, all be it a short period it is still more time than one will take when a lion is coming right at them. It would allow for better opportunity to look for young lions and even give a slight chance at identifying sex. With hand calls all the above are nil, especially when the lion is coming straight at the call.

No matter how you cut it, this state is ran by politics, and it became apparent in this issue just like with bear hunting, fear of the public, is far more important than educating. My focus this winter will be all in lion country.

While it may not be the associations position you the president and vp showed no support and came off with more of a negative tone. But heck what do you expect???

I would just have expected better support.
 
Let me get this straight. Chasing with dogs and shooting them out of a tree is considered "fair chase", but using an e-caller to call them in at ground level, eye to eye, one on one, without a ravaged pack of snoopys backing you up is not considered "fair chase"????

Ever heard a lion hunter say there is enough lions? I know, me either...

P.S. If a guy is juiced in with one or two respected organizations then he isn't allowed to have a personal opinion. He gave up that right when he accepted the position. It comes with the territory.....
 
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elks,

I too am frustrated. You did more than most and I know you would have been there if you could. All you say is true and the CTA could have done more, but they didn't. I recommend that they more closely monitor the extra curricular activities of their staff, especially if their name is to be used for credibility or title.

Just the same, they are our ally in the long run. I feel they should be treated accordingly. I apologize if my accounting of events steered you otherwise.

Fact is, the blame lies on us. The guys who really do have a dog in the fight did not respond. I had to beg, plead, push and poke just to get a guy to say "Bob Jones- South Dakota". This was on several forums and avenues. I made phone calls, emailed multiple hunters and organizations and got nothing. I was promised support from mods and site sponsors and got, you guessed it, next to nothing. (those who did help, please do not be offended) (redfrog and duane@ssu were on board)

In fact, an organization I thought I was aligned with knew of the opposition and told me nothing about it until it was acknowledged after the bomb was dropped. It was eye opening to say the least. Out of all of the people involved over the course of two years and to have only three show up, including me. Well, there you have it. We tried to push our agenda on the big stage using playground politics and got beat like a drum.

Can't fault the CTA for that, no matter how you slice it.

 
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Overall I am very frustrated. Mr. Gates aside, why wouldn't clubs like the FTA etc. take a side in favor of a proposal that would increase opportunity? This state has been running in fear ever since the trapping ban. As a result we are slowly loosing hunting opportunity and have seen our DOW board go from supporting hunters and hunting to fearing the public and trying to keep them happy. Hence the fact that if I want to hunt a lion I have to take and pass a lion identification test. We do not want to kill female lions after all, because our biologist are not smart enough to figure out how to adjust quotas when a female lion it taken.

The whole attitude of we are not taking an official stance, simply means they do not care enough to support other hunter in their pursuits. It is the exact same attitude that lost us spring bear hunt and trapping. I remember as a high school student going door to door trying to get people to not vote for the trapping and bear ban. the overwhelming attitude was I do not do it so it won't effect me. Add that to the fact that the CTA (at least the members in my area) assumed the bill had very little chance of passing and nor a we do not have trapping. I have been disappointed with the organization since then. If your member do not take it personally, just the way it is...

when you are in a position of leadership and use that title as a creditential then people will associate your actions with the organization. I am going to attack the process under which the state DOW commision conduct meetings. The fact that both meeting were held on the eastern slope in a row was frustrating. Would I have made a difference? Who knows, but atleast I would have had an opportunity. Heaven help this state if WY doesnot get the predator status on wolves and we get a pack established....
 
First off, I am Otis Latham President of the Colorado Trappers Association. After several phone calls, I have decided that I better clarify a few things so people better understand. A little history on this, at our fall meeting I brought to the attention to the membership of the e-caller petition. And asked if there was a certain stand that the CTA wanted to take on this. ( As well as a lenghty conversation with Jason bruce from NPHA) would did not attend our meeting. The membership had mixed emotions as one might have expected. Some asked questions about the ability to create "opportunitys" which is a direct legistlative action directly to the Division of Wildlife. Others asked about precedents this may set on other big game species. The list goes on. So final adoption was that the CTA would not take a official stand on the petition.

In Sept. during the Wildlife Commission meeting in Colorado Springs, myself and Dan Gates as well as Claude Oleyar attended that meeting. Chad may recall, that I spoke on behalf of the CTA, and told the Wildlife Commission that this would be a touchy subject for them. That they had to first off look at "opportunity" aspect of this petition, but secondly understand that there may be a precedent setting standard involved with it too. And I told the Commission that the CTA did not know where to stand on this. Those comments could be found on that particular meetings minutes. Dan Gates, who sits on the Board of Colorado Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife spoke on behalf of them. And not as wearing the hat as VP of the CTA. Now, all that being said, in the hall way, I spoke with the three individuals who did attend that I personally did not support the petition the way it was currently worded. That was not speaking for the CTA but speaking for myself personally. The key word there guys/gals is "worded".

As far as the CTA running scared since Amend. 14 is nothing but a farce. Since my time in office, we have since reclassified mink,marten,grey fox, swift fox,short/long tailed weasels,spotted skunks,oppossum,ringtailcats, from non game species back to furbearer status. Not only did it benefit the trappers, but also benefited the predator hunters for this state as well as non residents. We are in a stakeholders process of creating a furbearer monitoring process so that furharvesters of the state can have accurate data of populations within the state to appease future enviro-groups thoughts of over harvesting. So to have one sit back and say that we have done nothing, I take that a bit personal. We did something for trappers and did it for predator hunters as well. And will continue doing so as long as it is a passion of others within this state. We would have gladly helped the petitioners if they had come asked for the help, brought up ideas that we thought would have helped you instead of tripped you up. The CTA membership is full of predator hunters, why on earth would you think we would be against you.

In closing, the hardest thing you all will realize is getting people to participate in these things. Talk is cheap. Ive heard well it was 6 to 8 hours away, no excuse. If its dear to your heart, then you will do whatever to make sure your there and participate. I spend countless hours and my own personal money(in the thousands) fighting and protecting my passion. You all should do the same. Its easy for everyone to sit back, coach,preach,give the proverbial advice, but in turn dont put your money where your mouth is. Kudos to the individuals who spent the time and money putting this petition together. You learned the process, you understand what they look at, you tend to learn what other groups my look at. The CTA is here at any time you need help, we have been at this along time. Just a phone call away.
 
I am not a lion hunter, or probably ever will be, but I still have a question that I have been wondering since the beginning of this post and hasnt been directly answered, it has just been avoided.

Why wouldnt a wild game organization be 100% behind hunters, trappers, and other outdoor enthusiast to increase the opportunities for people to get out and enjoy their outdoor passions?

The fact that the CTA took a "no stand" approach to this is basically as bad as saying they were against it. There are a lot of anti-organizations that are working hard to destroy what we love to do, everyone here knows that. So to not fully support each other in something like this, how do we expect to band together against organganiztions such as HSUS and PETA?

In my opinion, it is ridiculous that the Colorado Trappers Association would not back, with every bit of their support, a topic like hunting mountain lions with electronic callers.

Now Mr. COCat,

If I am wrong in any way about this post, would you please inform me of it, because in my opinion, you and your association is wrong on this issue.

Sincerely,
huntwithBT17
 
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