Colorado Fur Trapper Assoc... Sucks...

Quote:The first argument presented is that of the danger of calling with a mouth call because of possible attack. What data do you have to support this? How many people have been attacked? Many people have been attacked by mountain lions. NOW, add a distress call to the situation mimicing the natural diet of a lion such as deer in distress,...what do ya suppose is going to happen? Is it not logical that someone calling is going to be attacked and how many attacks do ya need to have logged before it becomes logical that it's going to happen.

Quote: Your other argument is that there would be a longer opportunity to determine the sex and age of the mountain lion before deciding to take or not take. A very valid argument. However, how did you relate this to goals of the division? Would a more selective harvest make the population healthier?
The CDOW makes everyone take an on-line class before getting a tag to lion hunt BECAUSE they prefer male lions to be removed, instead of female. SO apparently, the division beleives that the population would be healthier with more males killed.

Quote: You mention the quota system to limit lion harvest briefly in the alternatives section. Would not this have been good to put in the arguments for e-callers? The use of e-callers would have no additive effect on the overall harvest. I can't speak for everyone, but in my written statement that I sent to be used in my absence, I stated this very thing, that even if more hunters took to the field IF Ecallers were allowed, there still would NOT be over harvest of lions, for the simple fact that there are quota's in place.

I've heard the arguement that Ecallers would be un-ethical. Then I wonder if those that state that have rifles that can shoot a mile, along with scopes that allow long range shooting, etc.. Ethics comes into knowing your limits and doing everthing with-in ones limits to kill cleanly and humanly. That's the goal of hunting. Ethics has nothing to do with HOW to accomplish the end goal. IMO..for what it's worth.

No doubt, more support will need to be found before trying to get ecallers allowed to call lions.
 
Originally Posted By: COCatTo answer a couple of questions. I have hunted lions over dogs many times, as I was a guide in my younger years. And in my lifetime have called 4 lions in with hand calls, and 1 while cow calling elk. 2 of those being at night. And no, I wasnt scared outta my pants and not afraid of the dark either.


I like readable posts like these!!
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This man obviously knows whats up, he isnt afraid of the dark
 
I don't know how to use the fancy quote thing efficiently enough to make it worth doing. I will however respond to songdog.

1. Yes it is logical to believe that one puts themselves at greater risk of attack by using a handcall. How many documented attacks are on the record? Was this data used to prove the safety increase provided by using e-callers?

2. You say that mountain lion hunters must take a class to learn how to determine the sex of lions before taking them. Great. Why was the advantage of using an e-caller in determining the sex of an animal not stressed in the petition?

3. You agree that there would be NO additive harvest yet in the petition it states "Initially there is the possibility of a small increase in lion harvests simply due to the increase in the amount of hunters willing to hunt them." I would assume this may be because there are areas where the lion quota is never reached. I have no other explanation for this. If it is due to this reason, then e-callers would be good for the division because it would allow them to meet their population objectives. A win for everyone.
 
So again I ask... What would it have taken to get the CTA president board etc. to support the bill? No the state wide lion quota is never met. there are several units where lion quotas are open at the end of season.

Over all, it was simply a matter of why?

Is the CTA the enemy? NO! But I am still disapointed from its response. Is it the only group I felt that should have supported us and did not take a stance? NO. But on the back burner I am still stuck wondering what it would take for the group to support it? What do you need? What would it take to allow 1 "big game species" to be hunted with an ecaller? Do I feel we should allow others? NO.

According to the article in the Grand Junction Sentinal: Our fault was the "harvest of female lions". Which is not illegal at all. and from the papers own numbers seems to be a very poor argument. This movement to limit female lion take is simply out of fear of the public. So now I take my little test grab my hand calls and go hunt. I do however see using an ecaller as a much greater opportunity to look over an animal. the only lions i have had come to the call come in striaght, all you see at that point is head and chest. from the side at least you can judge age, size, and a small quick glimpse allows for potential of sex.
 
I'm not a expert, But I have called in half a dozen lions over the years, and yes I did take the DOW lion class. But I have never been able to tell the sex of one. Because they are most likly facing you, or a side view. Only way to tell a male is to see his nuts. Which means he has to be up a tree, and close. So e-caals or mounth calls does not make any diff. and should not be btought up.
 
Elks, I think much could be done starting now.

1. Start building relationships. You need to get your message out to lots of people and groups and do it early. I don't think many people knew of your petition until very late in the process.

2. Find data to support your efforts. You have to have a way to convince those on the fence. Also gives the commission a valid reason to say yes other than increased opportunities.

3. Find a an opening in the process that benefits your side without threatening to open a can of worms. Your group is going to have to find a way to find a way that increasing the methods of take doesn't leave the commission with the idea that they will face additional petitions regarding other methods of take.

4. Show support from other groups and/or have the petition brought forth by an association. My thought is you would have and easier time if you could show a large group of people dedicated to the same goals supporting the petition.

5. Maybe not start a topic by stating that one of groups you would like support from "Sucks."
 
Originally Posted By: ColoradoAlanElks, I think much could be done starting now.

1. Start building relationships. You need to get your message out to lots of people and groups and do it early. I don't think many people knew of your petition until very late in the process.

2. Find data to support your efforts. You have to have a way to convince those on the fence. Also gives the commission a valid reason to say yes other than increased opportunities.

3. Find a an opening in the process that benefits your side without threatening to open a can of worms. Your group is going to have to find a way to find a way that increasing the methods of take doesn't leave the commission with the idea that they will face additional petitions regarding other methods of take.

4. Show support from other groups and/or have the petition brought forth by an association. My thought is you would have and easier time if you could show a large group of people dedicated to the same goals supporting the petition.

5. Maybe not start a topic by stating that one of groups you would like support from "Sucks."


i think that is wise advice dont give up because the other side isnt being proactive in gaining ground is a good way to keep from loseing it
 
I just hope you CTA guys stay out of NM, we are screwed up enuff down here and we don't need anymore "helpfull individuals".....lol.
 
So Gonzaga, what do you have productive to add to this or will you just continue to gripe from the sidelines? How would you suggest those supporting e-callers proceed?
 
I asked inthe beginning of this post " what wording needed to be done so that your CTA would support this issue". To which not one of you have responded. Is the CTAs position that e callers provide an unfair advantage to the hunter? In my opinion, it is harder to call in a cat using a call rather than cutting a fresh track and dumping the dogs out.

Please advise elks so that he can reword their petition so that it may garner YOUR support. That is what I am trying to add to this topic. Not one of you guys have mentioned anything to that nature. Take a stand on your own and tell us please.
 
Do I have to write it too? I think I gave 5 suggestions above that would help build support. You also said you were not here to stir the pot. That's all I see your posts doing. Still nothing productive.
 
I am just trying to see what kind of hunters if any that you guys were. Since that post, your fellow CTA members have said that they too have hunted lions behind dogs and without....merely laying a foundation.

Well if you feel that you have go write it too? By all means, do so. I'm sure it couldn't hurt.
 
I think that you took exception because he said that your organization sux. Maybe just maybe?

I read your posts too, Build relationships? Does that mean that elks is supposed to be the pivot man on the circle jerk at the next meeting?

Come on man, please. From what I've read of the members of your organization is that you are miles and miles apart. And now that he has called you guys out on an open forum.....that gap has only widened.

Like I said elks.....come on down here buddy, we can use them e callers down here and it doesn't have to be at dark, just in case you are afraid of the dark.

Good luck to you Colorado hunters, I hope you can get it changed.
 
Being that I am not involved in this fight and I only read a few posts on the first page because 6 pages of arguing is not worth my time.... here is just an outsider's view on this.

Why is this even such a big deal???? Why does it even matter if they legalize e-callers for lions? You guys act like you call in lions left and right and get mad that you cant shoot them.

Unless lions in CO are completely different then they are here, I am going to say the odds that you EVER call one in is very slim, compared to a coyote, fox, or even a bobcat.

I don't know the laws in CO but I assume as long as you have a lion tag, and you spot and stalk one and shoot it, it is legal???

If so, if you ever actually do call in a lion and are able to get a successful shot off .... why not just say you spot and stalked it or took it with dogs.. or whatever.....

If you are out calling for lions and a Game Warden were to come up to you, you could always say you are calling for coyotes, fox, or bobcats. How would he ever know?

Not encouraging you to break the law, but that just how I see it.

Please educate me


 
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motox,

And if your dragging a lion out of the woods with an electronic call slung around you what are you gonna say? If you are very far from the truck are you gonna walk clear back there to drop the electronic call and then go back and get the lion? F that.

There is a time and a place for discussion like this, I don't think this is it.
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I can't believe this is were we are at
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Sportsmen calling out other sportsmen and organizations based on a failed petition. For the record I am the person that presented our arguement to the commission. As Chad stated on the first page of this post we went to a gun fight with a knife. We (Chad, myself and others) tried to get data from different states with minimal success. We presented our case to the best of our ability to a group of 50% sportsmen and 50% liberal twits. After making it through the first round my hope was that the DOW would fill in the stats we could not find and make an educated decission.
I am not blaming anyone for the failure. We tried and we learned. If we decide to do it again we will be much more prepared than last time.
I had a hard time agreeing with SFW's arguement that it could set presidents that could affect other big game species due to the fact a president has already been set in Colorado that mountain lions can be hunted in different manners than other big game species. IE: Hounds, Smaller caliber. With that said I still respect Dan and he offered us suggestions that would help get the support of his group.
I also have a lot of respect for Otis and the CTA. Rather than blaiming them for not supporting this we should be blaiming ourselves for not getting them involved from the beginning. Im sure Chad would agree with this statement.

I left the site in 09 due to this type of fighting and flaiming. Apparently not much has changed
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Originally Posted By: billyho11I can't believe this is were we are at
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Sportsmen calling out other sportsmen and organizations based on a failed petition. For the record I am the person that presented our arguement to the commission. As Chad stated on the first page of this post we went to a gun fight with a knife. We (Chad, myself and others) tried to get data from different states with minimal success. We presented our case to the best of our ability to a group of 50% sportsmen and 50% liberal twits. After making it through the first round my hope was that the DOW would fill in the stats we could not find and make an educated decission.
I am not blaming anyone for the failure. We tried and we learned. If we decide to do it again we will be much more prepared than last time.
I had a hard time agreeing with SFW's arguement that it could set presidents that could affect other big game species due to the fact a president has already been set in Colorado that mountain lions can be hunted in different manners than other big game species. IE: Hounds, Smaller caliber. With that said I still respect Dan and he offered us suggestions that would help get the support of his group.
I also have a lot of respect for Otis and the CTA. Rather than blaiming them for not supporting this we should be blaiming ourselves for not getting them involved from the beginning. Im sure Chad would agree with this statement.

I left the site in 09 due to this type of fighting and flaiming. Apparently not much has changed
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are you guys going to try again? it might be worth it to contact the arizona and new mexico predator callers and trappers they might giv you some good information along with the new mexico game and fish if i remember correctly each state has at times adopted others ammendments and im shure you can get good information from those states on why e callers should be allowed. just a thaught
 
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