Concealed carry questions....Part II
- Thread starter fw707
- Start date
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: bigtommy
"... Also if it is cocked and you are disarmed it is one less step for them to shoot. I can give you many more reason to not carry cocked than you can give to carry cocked. Best thing in all is carry hammerless IMO
You're right.
I suggest that people carry uncocked, without one in the chamber, and no magazine in the gun, and no bullets in the magazine, (which is hidden under the back seat of the car).
That way, nothing the perp learned in prison will help - while he trying to rack the slide, and figure out why it won't shoot, and then where the magazine is...
... you can call 911 and wait for help.
"... Also if it is cocked and you are disarmed it is one less step for them to shoot. I can give you many more reason to not carry cocked than you can give to carry cocked. Best thing in all is carry hammerless IMO
You're right.
I suggest that people carry uncocked, without one in the chamber, and no magazine in the gun, and no bullets in the magazine, (which is hidden under the back seat of the car).
That way, nothing the perp learned in prison will help - while he trying to rack the slide, and figure out why it won't shoot, and then where the magazine is...
... you can call 911 and wait for help.
Originally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: bigtommy1)you guys that carry cocked and locked can not shoot any quicker than someone who has trained to draw and cock at the same time. I did it for years with no issues while on duty.
2)If you draw cocked the bad guy can get his webbing of his hand between your hammer and the gun they practice this in the prison there is video to prove it they have showed us in training.
3)Also if it is cocked and you are disarmed it is one less step for them to shoot. I can give you many more reason to not carry cocked than you can give to carry cocked. Best thing in all is carry hammerless IMO
1) I am going to disagree with you and make some arguments to counter your assertions. First, this number one is absolutely ridiculous... respectfully.
Thumb cocking a 1911 is an awkward manipulation of the handgun. Working around the beavertail is an awkward manipulation that promotes fumbling and considerably less control of the handgun in the draw stage. Were you never taught a proper grip and draw stage? The firing grip comes with the handgun in the holster with no shifting of the grip after you clear the handgun from the holster. Or, if you are cocking the 1911 while in the holster no way is that as fast as a normal and properly executed draw stage. This argument is dead in the water. Attempting to thumb cock the 1911 while drawing is slower, less secure and more dangerous than carrying cocked and locked as the weapon was designed to be carried.
When you go hunting do you carry your rifle or shotgun with an empty chamber and wait until the pheasant flushes or rabbit jumps or deer bust out of cover to rack, lever or bolt a round into the chamber? Bet you don’t and the safety systems built into a cocked and locked 1911 are safer than the trigger blocking only safety on nearly all pump or semi-auto shotguns or rifles. The only problem here isn’t with the 1911; it is your perception of it and lack of logical reasoning regarding the proper use of the handgun.
2) If somebody is that close and has physical contact with you and a struggle is ongoing, is thumb cocking the handgun in the draw stage supposed to be an answer to prevent your gun from being disabled? You mentioned duty use as I suppose from a LEO perspective so in fact drawing my handgun from my security holster while engaged in hands on contact isn’t high on my priority list just then, I have other options and other methods to give the bad guy something else to suddenly think about instead of fumbling around with an inert handgun between the two of us just then.
It is possible to grab cylinders on revolvers or block the hammer of revolvers to attempt to tie them up. Push hard on the muzzle of any semi-auto and see if it remains in battery and will fire. What's your point? Disarming techniques are taught and passed around in many circles and few weapons are exempt from this event. If someone is already wrapped around me trying to disarm me or is grappling for my handgun thumb cocking the weapon isn’t going to save me.
3) Unless the 1911 is cocked & LOCKED. Then that is one more step for the bad guy to figure out where the safety is and how to get the safety off safe to make the handgun fire. Pull and point guns like any double action revolver and many striker fired semi-auto handguns with no safety all make it easy to fire them in a disarming event. Not so a handgun with a safety.
You are wrong it is called small muscle memory if you train doing it it will not take any longer to cock on the draw. And yes I have been taught proper grip which is why I am an expert marksman. I qualify minimum 99 percent everytime and that is under stressed situations.
Second I never said not to carry with one chambered just cocked so don't go off subject.
Third you end up dealing with people in close quarters every night barfights and so on.
Finally the 1911 is no longer carried by many people due to the fact that it is so limited in round count it is not as reliable as a glock and the hammerless design is much safer to carry while on duty.
2)If you draw cocked the bad guy can get his webbing of his hand between your hammer and the gun they practice this in the prison there is video to prove it they have showed us in training.
3)Also if it is cocked and you are disarmed it is one less step for them to shoot. I can give you many more reason to not carry cocked than you can give to carry cocked. Best thing in all is carry hammerless IMO
1) I am going to disagree with you and make some arguments to counter your assertions. First, this number one is absolutely ridiculous... respectfully.
When you go hunting do you carry your rifle or shotgun with an empty chamber and wait until the pheasant flushes or rabbit jumps or deer bust out of cover to rack, lever or bolt a round into the chamber? Bet you don’t and the safety systems built into a cocked and locked 1911 are safer than the trigger blocking only safety on nearly all pump or semi-auto shotguns or rifles. The only problem here isn’t with the 1911; it is your perception of it and lack of logical reasoning regarding the proper use of the handgun.
2) If somebody is that close and has physical contact with you and a struggle is ongoing, is thumb cocking the handgun in the draw stage supposed to be an answer to prevent your gun from being disabled? You mentioned duty use as I suppose from a LEO perspective so in fact drawing my handgun from my security holster while engaged in hands on contact isn’t high on my priority list just then, I have other options and other methods to give the bad guy something else to suddenly think about instead of fumbling around with an inert handgun between the two of us just then.
It is possible to grab cylinders on revolvers or block the hammer of revolvers to attempt to tie them up. Push hard on the muzzle of any semi-auto and see if it remains in battery and will fire. What's your point? Disarming techniques are taught and passed around in many circles and few weapons are exempt from this event. If someone is already wrapped around me trying to disarm me or is grappling for my handgun thumb cocking the weapon isn’t going to save me.
3) Unless the 1911 is cocked & LOCKED. Then that is one more step for the bad guy to figure out where the safety is and how to get the safety off safe to make the handgun fire. Pull and point guns like any double action revolver and many striker fired semi-auto handguns with no safety all make it easy to fire them in a disarming event. Not so a handgun with a safety.
You are wrong it is called small muscle memory if you train doing it it will not take any longer to cock on the draw. And yes I have been taught proper grip which is why I am an expert marksman. I qualify minimum 99 percent everytime and that is under stressed situations.
Second I never said not to carry with one chambered just cocked so don't go off subject.
Third you end up dealing with people in close quarters every night barfights and so on.
Finally the 1911 is no longer carried by many people due to the fact that it is so limited in round count it is not as reliable as a glock and the hammerless design is much safer to carry while on duty.
Finally the 1911 is no longer carried by many people due to the fact that it is so limited in round count
Why carry a ar with a 30 round mag when 100 round mag has more rounds? Moral of the story hit what you are aiming at does not matter if you have 8 rounds or 16 rounds if you can't hit what you are shooting at.
Why carry a ar with a 30 round mag when 100 round mag has more rounds? Moral of the story hit what you are aiming at does not matter if you have 8 rounds or 16 rounds if you can't hit what you are shooting at.
OldTurtle
Moderator - Deceased
Let's face it...If the other guy has the drop on you, very few have the ability to outdraw and fire, regardless of the weapon's condition....If you are going into, or find yourself in, a potential threatening situation where deadly force will likely be necessary, you'd better have your weapon in your hand...
If I have my sidearm in my hand, taking out the time of the bullet's flight, my reflexes place my accuracy firing time at .33 seconds in timed experiments...If I have to draw and fire, it's quite a bit longer....Most untrained shooters will have an unholstered accurate firing time in the one second or longer factor...
The GSSF (Glock) matches have a stage of "Plates", where the object is to accurately knock six off of the rack in the shortest time at eleven yards...Weapon is in hand and started at a 45* forward angle down range...The stage is fired four times and times aggregated for total score...My average for a run is usually about 3 seconds for six rounds, accurately placed, and I'm one of the slower ones....
If I have my sidearm in my hand, taking out the time of the bullet's flight, my reflexes place my accuracy firing time at .33 seconds in timed experiments...If I have to draw and fire, it's quite a bit longer....Most untrained shooters will have an unholstered accurate firing time in the one second or longer factor...
The GSSF (Glock) matches have a stage of "Plates", where the object is to accurately knock six off of the rack in the shortest time at eleven yards...Weapon is in hand and started at a 45* forward angle down range...The stage is fired four times and times aggregated for total score...My average for a run is usually about 3 seconds for six rounds, accurately placed, and I'm one of the slower ones....
GC
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: bigtommyOriginally Posted By: GCOriginally Posted By: bigtommy1)you guys that carry cocked and locked can not shoot any quicker than someone who has trained to draw and cock at the same time. I did it for years with no issues while on duty.
2)If you draw cocked the bad guy can get his webbing of his hand between your hammer and the gun they practice this in the prison there is video to prove it they have showed us in training.
3)Also if it is cocked and you are disarmed it is one less step for them to shoot. I can give you many more reason to not carry cocked than you can give to carry cocked. Best thing in all is carry hammerless IMO
1) I am going to disagree with you and make some arguments to counter your assertions. First, this number one is absolutely ridiculous... respectfully.
Thumb cocking a 1911 is an awkward manipulation of the handgun. Working around the beavertail is an awkward manipulation that promotes fumbling and considerably less control of the handgun in the draw stage. Were you never taught a proper grip and draw stage? The firing grip comes with the handgun in the holster with no shifting of the grip after you clear the handgun from the holster. Or, if you are cocking the 1911 while in the holster no way is that as fast as a normal and properly executed draw stage. This argument is dead in the water. Attempting to thumb cock the 1911 while drawing is slower, less secure and more dangerous than carrying cocked and locked as the weapon was designed to be carried.
When you go hunting do you carry your rifle or shotgun with an empty chamber and wait until the pheasant flushes or rabbit jumps or deer bust out of cover to rack, lever or bolt a round into the chamber? Bet you don’t and the safety systems built into a cocked and locked 1911 are safer than the trigger blocking only safety on nearly all pump or semi-auto shotguns or rifles. The only problem here isn’t with the 1911; it is your perception of it and lack of logical reasoning regarding the proper use of the handgun.
2) If somebody is that close and has physical contact with you and a struggle is ongoing, is thumb cocking the handgun in the draw stage supposed to be an answer to prevent your gun from being disabled? You mentioned duty use as I suppose from a LEO perspective so in fact drawing my handgun from my security holster while engaged in hands on contact isn’t high on my priority list just then, I have other options and other methods to give the bad guy something else to suddenly think about instead of fumbling around with an inert handgun between the two of us just then.
It is possible to grab cylinders on revolvers or block the hammer of revolvers to attempt to tie them up. Push hard on the muzzle of any semi-auto and see if it remains in battery and will fire. What's your point? Disarming techniques are taught and passed around in many circles and few weapons are exempt from this event. If someone is already wrapped around me trying to disarm me or is grappling for my handgun thumb cocking the weapon isn’t going to save me.
3) Unless the 1911 is cocked & LOCKED. Then that is one more step for the bad guy to figure out where the safety is and how to get the safety off safe to make the handgun fire. Pull and point guns like any double action revolver and many striker fired semi-auto handguns with no safety all make it easy to fire them in a disarming event. Not so a handgun with a safety.
You are wrong it is called small muscle memory if you train doing it it will not take any longer to cock on the draw. And yes I have been taught proper grip which is why I am an expert marksman. I qualify minimum 99 percent everytime and that is under stressed situations.
Second I never said not to carry with one chambered just cocked so don't go off subject.
Third you end up dealing with people in close quarters every night barfights and so on.
Finally the 1911 is no longer carried by many people due to the fact that it is so limited in round count it is not as reliable as a glock and the hammerless design is much safer to carry while on duty.
And the very first thing the body loses in extreme stress is fine motor skills. Try again...
Bar fights and close quarter hands on grappling with subjects can present the same basic weapons retention and function troubles for any gun in question regardless of the type.
Glock and other striker fired handguns are NOT inherently safer to carry than any other handgun. In fact many with an informed opinion would argue exactly the opposite. You need to explain how a striker fired gun is safer to carry than a 1911. Please do so...
2)If you draw cocked the bad guy can get his webbing of his hand between your hammer and the gun they practice this in the prison there is video to prove it they have showed us in training.
3)Also if it is cocked and you are disarmed it is one less step for them to shoot. I can give you many more reason to not carry cocked than you can give to carry cocked. Best thing in all is carry hammerless IMO
1) I am going to disagree with you and make some arguments to counter your assertions. First, this number one is absolutely ridiculous... respectfully.
When you go hunting do you carry your rifle or shotgun with an empty chamber and wait until the pheasant flushes or rabbit jumps or deer bust out of cover to rack, lever or bolt a round into the chamber? Bet you don’t and the safety systems built into a cocked and locked 1911 are safer than the trigger blocking only safety on nearly all pump or semi-auto shotguns or rifles. The only problem here isn’t with the 1911; it is your perception of it and lack of logical reasoning regarding the proper use of the handgun.
2) If somebody is that close and has physical contact with you and a struggle is ongoing, is thumb cocking the handgun in the draw stage supposed to be an answer to prevent your gun from being disabled? You mentioned duty use as I suppose from a LEO perspective so in fact drawing my handgun from my security holster while engaged in hands on contact isn’t high on my priority list just then, I have other options and other methods to give the bad guy something else to suddenly think about instead of fumbling around with an inert handgun between the two of us just then.
It is possible to grab cylinders on revolvers or block the hammer of revolvers to attempt to tie them up. Push hard on the muzzle of any semi-auto and see if it remains in battery and will fire. What's your point? Disarming techniques are taught and passed around in many circles and few weapons are exempt from this event. If someone is already wrapped around me trying to disarm me or is grappling for my handgun thumb cocking the weapon isn’t going to save me.
3) Unless the 1911 is cocked & LOCKED. Then that is one more step for the bad guy to figure out where the safety is and how to get the safety off safe to make the handgun fire. Pull and point guns like any double action revolver and many striker fired semi-auto handguns with no safety all make it easy to fire them in a disarming event. Not so a handgun with a safety.
You are wrong it is called small muscle memory if you train doing it it will not take any longer to cock on the draw. And yes I have been taught proper grip which is why I am an expert marksman. I qualify minimum 99 percent everytime and that is under stressed situations.
Second I never said not to carry with one chambered just cocked so don't go off subject.
Third you end up dealing with people in close quarters every night barfights and so on.
Finally the 1911 is no longer carried by many people due to the fact that it is so limited in round count it is not as reliable as a glock and the hammerless design is much safer to carry while on duty.
And the very first thing the body loses in extreme stress is fine motor skills. Try again...
Bar fights and close quarter hands on grappling with subjects can present the same basic weapons retention and function troubles for any gun in question regardless of the type.
Glock and other striker fired handguns are NOT inherently safer to carry than any other handgun. In fact many with an informed opinion would argue exactly the opposite. You need to explain how a striker fired gun is safer to carry than a 1911. Please do so...
BroncoGlenn
New member
Originally Posted By: GC
And the very first thing the body loses in extreme stress is fine motor skills. Try again...
And pulling the trigger is a fine motor skill, as is hitting a mag release button or aligning an inserting magazine.
Just sayin'.
And the very first thing the body loses in extreme stress is fine motor skills. Try again...
And pulling the trigger is a fine motor skill, as is hitting a mag release button or aligning an inserting magazine.
Just sayin'.
GC
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: BroncoGlennOriginally Posted By: GC
And the very first thing the body loses in extreme stress is fine motor skills. Try again...
And pulling the trigger is a fine motor skill, as is hitting a mag release button or aligning an inserting magazine.
Just sayin'.
No doubt about it as proven by the often reported negligent discharges and poor shot to target hit ratio when under extreme stress. Can't see any future in complicating an already complicated activity.
And the very first thing the body loses in extreme stress is fine motor skills. Try again...
And pulling the trigger is a fine motor skill, as is hitting a mag release button or aligning an inserting magazine.
Just sayin'.
No doubt about it as proven by the often reported negligent discharges and poor shot to target hit ratio when under extreme stress. Can't see any future in complicating an already complicated activity.
BroncoGlenn
New member
My point is fine/gross motor skills don't end up meaning jack at the end of the day. What does matter is training. People need to understand that they will not rise to the occasion. Instead they will default to their level of training.
GC
Well-known member
I agree with reliable training with good well proven techniques for a good result. Good reliable well proven techniques commonly used are good reliable well proven techniques for a reason - they simply work. In question here would be if thumb cocking 1911's were faster, safer or had any advantages over cocked and locked it would be a technique taught and used widely by law enforcement and the military. It isn't for a good reason - it doesn't work well. Colonel Cooper didn't include thumb cocking the 1911 in his Modern Technique for a reason. Not trying to be a smart aleck but thumb cocking a 1911 is just taking the long way around the barn. But hey, whatever; everybody has to work out their own salvation.