Continuation of NASA's Do Animals Think?

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So I got to lookin' at "my dictionary" m-w.com and it is the longest definition of a word I have ever seen, with a shocking amount of synonyms (look it up if ya need to LOL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

I guess what "think" is, is more up for debate, than whether or not a coyote can do it.

Here's how I see the levels of thinking... the first one is like for breathing, you only need to be alive (not brain dead), you do it "without thinking".
The second is like walking, you need to be awake, but you do it "without thinking" but with a bit of thinking going into it.
The third is like basic problem solving. I recently saw a show about ravens, captive raised ravens were given a task to test their abilty to problem solve. Two strings were tied to a branch, at the end of one string a piece of food, the other string a rock. Not only could the ravens figure out how to raise the string, but not one single time did any of the 19 test subjects attempt to lift the rock (*crows could not do this same task). The strings were then crossed, and they still figured it out.
The fourth level of thought is cogitation... adding subtrating, understanding mortality (that things do die), spacial reality, etc.
The fifth level is phylosophical thinking, and I doubt coyotes can do that.

It would be interesting to see or hear about some of the "tasks" coyotes have performed, or learned, to get some food.

Krusty
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I’ll give you one, Krusty. This one always amazed me. Of the six coyotes I had, one seemed “above average”. She would climb a chain link fence, where the others would just dig underneath it. So I ran a hot wire along the top, as well as the bottom of the fence. They tried it and got zapped. I figured the problem was solved. The next morning, I went out and all 6 were gone. They had dug under the fence! I filled in the hole, made sure the wire was still working (Ouch!), then went out and rounded up the coyotes. I put them back in the yard, then went in the house to watch out the window. My alpha female proceeded to walk along the fence sniffing at the hot wire, but not touching it. Then she turned her back to the fence and started digging. I didn’t get it until she finally stopped, and then went to the fence and began to dig under it. I ran out to stop her, and that’s when I saw how clever she was. When she was digging with her back to the fence, she was actually piling dirt on the bottom hot wire, effectively grounding it out! With the hot wire out of commission, they could safely dig under the fence and go raid the neighborhood.

Now, is that “thinking”, or rapid utilization of “learned behavior”? Some folks here would swear that is proof that coyotes think. But, is that just a shallow rationalization, or the result of deep analysis. Now, cogitate (v 1: consider carefully and deeply; reflect upon; turn over in one's mind 2: use or exercise the mind or one's power of reason in order to make inferences, decisions, or arrive at a solution or judgment) on that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
NASA,
Perfect proof of a coyote's ability to think. Hey, has anyone ever shined a light into Nistetter's eyes at night? I am betting that they glow yellow just like a coyote. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Hi Rich. You're an old fart, you know? LOL
How's your health been lately?

Sometimes my eyes ARE yellow. That's why I live in a state that doesn't allow night hunting.
 
Nasa

Why did you have coyote pups? Is it legal to have possession of a wild animal in your state without a license?

NY Yote
 
Jay Nistetter,
Your last post is right on the mark sir. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif My health ain't all that good. You could probably whup me right now.
 
NY Yote, I’m a little surprised you’re more interested in my being properly licensed, than in the results of 5-years of research. But I’ll give you a limited response.

The pups were from a denning. Their eyes were not open yet, so I decided to take them rather than let them be killed. What better way to study coyote behavior firsthand?
The pups were registered, licensed, and had health records maintained by a vet. Their enclosure was inspected annually by a county animal control agent.
Those details are the least important aspects of that experiment.
 
Nasa...

What kind of study was this...?? Most people who study behavior patterns of animals usually do it from a distance so they do not affect the data they gather. This would allow the animal to behave naturally in its own environment. I would know this because I have radio collared a couple of coyotes of my own for a special project class while getting my Wildlife Management degree. Also most states require a permit from the state and not from a local vet or animal control agent..Here is a picture of a male I radio-collared. He weighed 42lbs and was estimated to be about 2 years old.

NY Yote

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NY, your personal interest in me is intriguing. Care to share your agenda?
Kind of “study”? That’s your term, not mine. It was not formal, or funded, or financially profitable. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my post. If I had to label it I’d call it a “rescue”. I just didn't waste the opportunity.

Maybe you should e:mail me if you have a deeper interest in this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
NY Yote

How about starting a new thread on the results of the study. Territories, core areas, night and day movements, distance traveled, etc. Probably some interesting stuff.
 
Curt.
Very Interesting.
One thing I have learned is that books (and articles) can be misleading even if they are classified as "studies" or "documentaries". This is not to say that I agree or disagree. In fact I found this article very interesting and think that Afghans got a bum rap.

I had a dilema when writing my book and also when editing my video inasmuch of HOW to tell a story without misleading someone. In both media, I discovered that I could deviously mislead someone into beleiving pretty much what I wanted them too and I am so amaturish at it.

All this is leading up to... I take these things with a grain of salt and do not put as much stock in experts. I have learned oh so much more by listening to old timers who were graduates from SHK (School of Hard Knocks).

I am no Plato, but maybe someday I will give all these important things more of my time. Until then, They're just a dog. (Higgins hates when I say that.)
 
Afghans are independent thinkers Hmmm I know people like that. Until now, I just thought they was stupid. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I put them in with Malemutes as far as problem solvers go. I really like Malemutes, but let's face it, they were bred to pull and eat frozen fish. Both activities would be better performed by a candidate without much skill at "thinking outside the box."

Here an incident that I would like your comments on.

While travelling in the mountains in B.C. about 10-12 years ago, with a buddy and my young son, we had to travel through a Provincial park.

We were eastbound and as we passed a pullout[rest area] on the westbound side of the highway,I noticed a coyote lying on the road in the parking area. I suspected there was something amiss, and we turned around to investigate. As we approached with the truck, the coyote stood up. He made no effort to move off as we slowly approached to within 50-60 feet.
We remained in the vehicle for a few minutes discussing what could be wrong with this coyote.
Stupid? independent thinker? Rabid?
I was on the passenger side and amidst pleas from my 4 year old to "shoot his ass off" I thought maybe this coyote had a "Dog and Pony" show going without the pony.
I took half a sandwich from our lunch, reached around the open truck door and tossed it to the coyote. Instead of running off from the movement or the sight of the flying missile, he caught it in mid air like a frisbee.

Gentlemen if you will, offer your theories on how this coyote developed this skill. How did he know it was food and not a grenade?

The area is remote in that the only permanent residents are 50 miles from this spot.

I'm sure you all realize of course, that Canadian coyotes are generally smarter that American coyotes, right from the getgo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

coyote_sheep_leap.jpg
 
Jay, I'm with you on the grain of salt thing. Studies, tests and documentaries etc... can be very misleading and often are just the opinions of someone who may or may not be on the right track. Thought it was a funny coincidence that the article ran while we were having this discussion though. I have to agree a coyote is basically "just a dog". (Not trying to piss ya off Rich /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ) They are definitly both canines. Some dogs are pretty resourceful though.

I don't feel there is as much thinking going on as a wee bit of learning. Who knows though. They are sure fun to hunt.

Redfrog, why would you insult a Malamute like that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I had an Afghan given to me in my younger years and that thing was about as bright as the inside of a smokehouse at midnight. Don't know if the one I had gave an accurate impression of the breed but I knew after having mine for a very short period that was one canine I never wanted to own again. No offense to any Afghan fans out there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Now sheep are another story though. They are the Einsteins' of the animal kingdom. As your picture illustrates, sheep are so smart they can even train the coyotes to scratch their backs.

Take care, Curt
 
Tremendious thread guys! I have always enjoyed observing wildlife while I hunt and scout. Noting behavior and reactions. And why certain calls work and when they don't. I think conditioning more explains how both game and predators react. That 8 point just out of range might have something else on his mind, or just finished running from that coyote he saw, maybe he's got a tooth ache. The coyote that hangs up at 200 yards might just have finished off a gutpile or woodchuck and could be observant, curious instead of permissive. Although untill I read the comments about 'condidtioning' from the litter it probably wouldn't have been my first thought.
A step back if I may referencing the lowly grey squirrel. In the past I've used a locator or 'bark' call. Usually would get a few chatter's to respond. Ok, great I know where they are kinda thing. After a short time a second use of the call still produced some results. After that, zip, natta, I would say - think they 'wised-up' to it. Now if I didn't kill 'em off the next day I could repeat the whole process. Now try that on something like fox, yeah right. So is it simply the capacity of each critter's ability, from the size of their brain and how much they can process or 'remember?

Redfrog; I think that has to be the funniest picture I've seen all month /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Danurve, that was one of the benefits received for my efforts. Those pups were likely no more than 5 days old and had zero influence to contaminate them as "lab samples". I was able to witness unblemished "instinctual behavior" and the developing process of "learned behavior". I wish I had been doing it for a thesis or a white-paper study, because a lot of information was gained for the time, effort and money invested.
 
Nasa...

Wow zero contamination?? Not likely unless you fed them without them seeing you and still that was not a natural environment which gives you unblemished "instinctual behavior". In a natural environment they would have had the smell of their parents and would have been taught things such as the " one time NO" which is when the bitch runs out of milk and she bites them once on the nose and they learn that kind of behavioral trait. Yes they learn things such as dominance and things like that but there still was contamination. Sorry but you have no ground to stand on..simple as that. Watching a bunch of house puppies would have gotten you the same results. How did you come across these pups and how did you know the bitch was dead or had abandoned them? Unless you shot her or found her dead body those pups should have been left alone..period.. and dont tell me those pups were out and about which they were not if they were 5 days old. If the bitch was found dead than you should have taken the pups to a wildlife rehabilitator.....Wildlife is a gift and should be treated with respect.

NY Yote
 
Most people who study behavior patterns of animals usually do it from a distance so they do not affect the data they gather. This would allow the animal to behave naturally in its own environment
Click to expand...
So catching, containing, collaring will have no effect on the coyote in his natural environment?
NY yote,I am gonna ambush you after a class one day, drug you and put a tracking collar on you..and i will bet you will act different in your day to day activities.

maybe you should email NASA and discuss your issues with his observations..i think he stated he wasn't doing a scientific study.

Redfrog...that was a funny pic, it's now on my office wall, thank you sir.
 
NY- "Watching a bunch of house puppies would have gotten you the same results."

JRB- Ummmmm.... I call Bull$h!t on that statement.

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NY- "How did you come across these pups and how did you know the bitch was dead or had abandoned them?"

NASA- "The pups were from a denning."

JRB- Ny, you ain't from round' here are ya'?

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NY - "and dont tell me those pups were out and about which they were not if they were 5 days old."

NASA- "The pups were from a denning"

JRB- Did you think he used a "Lohman Power Pup Whimper" to bring em' in and gave them time to blindly lead themselves through the woods?

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NY- "Wildlife is a gift and should be treated with respect."

JRB- You realize you are talking to hunters (The first conservationists) and of us you are talking to one of the most respectful and best educated of the bunch? If you want a gift, quit with your secret agenda and learn from the experiences of some great hunters from around the country. Your statements imply a stance similar to these guy's in that you want to see natural predation and disease to control nature moreso than hunters and trappers. If so, thats your opinion, but this isn't a good place to masks it OR push it! :rolleyes:

Good Hunting.

You do hunt don't you NY? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Thanks, JRB. I think NY has blown his cover. I tried to be nice to him, but I think you've pegged him too. We could play with his mind(?) for a while longer if we had nothing better to do. But huntin' seasons almost here and I've got rifles to sight-in and doves to scout. I'll be fortunate enough to hunt 4 different states this year. That's a big deal for me and I'm excited about it.
I think this thread is about exhausted. Time to move on.
 
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