Deer - BLACK bear caliber

Yep. If I go lever action I'm looking into the BLR. If I go black gun... the sky is the limit apparently
 
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Originally Posted By: wraithenOk, I don't want to start a war and if my state allowed I'd use my .223 on deer. It's a big enough round for a 200 lb bad guy but not enough for bambi?! Aside from that I'm looking for advice on a caliber that won't destroy deer but will still be effective on black bear. I'm thinking .308 so I can get into the AR club. I'm thinking an FMJ or JSP for black bear should be a good round? I don't wanna start a war on this subject and a .338 lapua or RUM or WM is not an option. Am I crazy for wanting to hunt such a broad scope of animals with just one caliber?

I apoligize in advance, as I didn't read the entire thread... 1st and foremost, PLEASE do not shoot FMJ ammo anywhere but the range, 2nd... the .308 would fit the bill for anything in your state that you wanted to hunt. Anything in the lower 48 inside of 300 yds, really... Thats probably your best option for the AR idea.
 
Oh, and BTW... I own both .308 and .270's and I would shoot either at any North American game with 100% confidence to 300 yds... My dad shoots .35 rem and a 30-30 bolt that I built for my nephew at both species you listed and has great success and little meat damage.

For factory .270 bear hunting I would recommend getting a bonded bullet from any number of makers in 150 gr or bigger and you will have more than enough punch. For deer the 130's work excellent in any given soft point round, really...
 
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After learning a little bit more about black bears I have no interest in using the FMJ's for big game. My current conundrum has come down to which cool factor do I go with? Lever action 270 or 308, or the ar. I think the ar has more versatility and fits the job better, but the lever action does have a little more cool factor in my opinion... Stupid cowboy movies when I was a kid.
 
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The ar in .308(ar-10) will have plenty of accurate firepower but comes with two penalties for hunting in my opinion. Weight and bulk.
Obviously the lever will not be quite as quick on followup shots but very minimal with practice. With a removable mag, my preference, the are nice for hunting.
 
I have a Winchester Model 88 in .308 that I absolutely adore for whitetail hunting... shoots pretty good groups, right around 1" @ 100 yds with factory ammo, not much better with hand loads. I have never really tried working a specific load up for it since all I do with it is hunt. With a weaver fixed 4x on it I have been successful taking deer out to 250 yds, though most shots I have taken are well under 100.
 
You can still find these guns used if you hunt online auctions, but believe me when I tell you.. You are gonna pay for it if you want one in even okay shape.

Another decent .308 lever gun was the Savage 99's... I am still searching for one of these with the brass guts. They are getting increasingly hard to find and also demand a pretty penny to own.
 
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Originally Posted By: pahntr760^^^Ok, sure enough. But they do kill...^^^


But with the introduction of body armors, the FMJ works even better...

Never said it wouldn't, just not how it was intended as usage. Cars *can* kill, but probably not what Ford was going for when they redesigned the f150
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2muchgun, What's the beef with the BLR? It seems like a very good modern lever action on paper. Is it a brand thing or is there experience behind it?
 
Originally Posted By: NdIndyOriginally Posted By: pahntr760^^^Ok, sure enough. But they do kill...^^^


But with the introduction of body armors, the FMJ works even better...

Never said it wouldn't, just not how it was intended as usage. Cars *can* kill, but probably not what Ford was going for when they redesigned the f150
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Um, still wrong. The bullet is designed to kill. Period. The intent of war is to destroy the enemy. That's is. Bullets kill, that's what they do.
 
Originally Posted By: NdIndyOriginally Posted By: pahntr760^^^Ok, sure enough. But they do kill...^^^


But with the introduction of body armors, the FMJ works even better...

Never said it wouldn't, just not how it was intended as usage. Cars *can* kill, but probably not what Ford was going for when they redesigned the f150
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Now with several models by Communist Toyota on the other hand it is up for debate...
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Wraithen~ I personally do not own a BLR, but my mother in law has one in .243, she LOVES it and I have shot it several times, it is a sweet heart of a gun. Alot of guys just dont like the "cross-over" style of the gun... It looks half model 94/half new age IMO... BTW, that BLR is willed to me, thats probably the only reason I haven't purchased one... You can get a decent Model 88 for about 700 bucks, which is about what you'd have into a NEW BLR. just food for thought. I wouldn't trade my 88 for any lever out there though... they are such a comfortable gun to carry/shoot!
 
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Thanks snow white. Guys, as far as the FMJ, it is used because of the hague conventions. It is designed to be devastating at distance but at close range it doesn't tumble on impact. In my opinion the hollow point is a much more effective round to kill due to more trauma in the wound tract. This leads me to the point that the ammo we use is designed to injure "humanely" That is that it is NOT designed to maim. FWIW, they taught us that one dead guy removes 1 man from the fight. 1 injured man removes a minimum of 2 more likely 3. (The injured and the guys dragging him to care.)We don't aim to injure, we just aim to take the guy out of the fight. The object in war is to win. Death is generally part of that equation but isn't necessarily a direct connection. Clauswitz still rings true.
As far as the model 88 goes I would love to score one but it seems easier for me to buy new guns and I like the half new style of the BLR. I also like the fact as mentioned previously that I can use pointy bullets aside from leverevolutions. Blowing up a tube magazine that's resting on my hand isn't something I'll gamble with. I watched a belted 7.62 round go off when it hit the ground from about 5 feet and that was enough to convince me that craziness happens and not to mess with live rounds on the primer end.
 
You can run pointed bullets out of an 88 or 99 also. I'll happily take either over a BLR.

My dislike for the BLR is not a brand thing. I'm not brand loyal to anyone, and never will be. I judge each design upon it own merits, or lack thereof. Regardless of who's name is on it.

That said, I have seen BLRs with chipped gears, and locked up with chipped gears. As in, the action will no longer cycle. Check out an exploded view drawing of the rifle and you will see what I mean by "gears". The newer ones are not constructed of the same material as the older ones. The Belgian versions being considered superior. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I do not believe the Belgians have gold triggers. Every one I have seen was black. Have also seen troubles with the pin that runs through the hammer coming loose. You also need to keep BLRs clean, or you can have problems with cases sticking in the chamber when you try to extract them. On top of that, I absolutely HATE BLR triggers(they suck), and find BLRs to be very awkward looking in comparison to classic lever gun designs. I also do not care for the way they balance, and the shiny finish is anything but durable.

JMO.........
 
Thanks 2much, I'll have to see if I can find an exploded view and see what materials they use. The BLR was in the mix due to availability and price point. If I could find a good old 99 or 88 as easily they'd already be on the top of the list. Thanks for the unbiased opinion ::cheers::
 
Originally Posted By: pahntr760Originally Posted By: NdIndyOriginally Posted By: pahntr760^^^Ok, sure enough. But they do kill...^^^


But with the introduction of body armors, the FMJ works even better...

Never said it wouldn't, just not how it was intended as usage. Cars *can* kill, but probably not what Ford was going for when they redesigned the f150
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Um, still wrong. The bullet is designed to kill. Period. The intent of war is to destroy the enemy. That's is. Bullets kill, that's what they do.

Ok, I admit that I am wrong and FMJ are the better more deadly round than an expanding bullet. It was designed to be 'more deadly' than an expanding tip and that is why they are used by military forces. Moving on now.

Has anyone brought up the 99 for a lever and OK with pointed bullets? :thumbsup:
 
FMJ military rounds were not "designed" to tumble in a target. It's a little perk, but not by design. they tumble and close and long range, well documented.

Quote:It was designed to be 'more deadly' than an expanding tip and that is why they are used by military forces.

Nope, they're designed to be "humane" if there is such a thing. Shoot someone, he doesn't die, he's not completely shredded beyond repair by a surgeon. Not how it always works out, but that's the intent of the design.

Boom.
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Sorry had to.
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Back to the original topic!
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Someone did bring up the 99. I think I'll start sweeping around my local gun dealers and see who may have one. I'd say cabelas gun library but I loathe to give cabelas any more of my money than absolutely necessary.
 
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