Deer hunting subsonic

2LayZ2 said:
It can be nearly impossible for someone who has trouble judging distance in the field to rapidly determine holdover for a subsonic round that drops faster than a Congressional approval rating. Guessing before pulling the trigger isn’t ethical, and perhaps going supersonic with 100 grain bullets that fly flatter farther might mitigate the need for it.
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I agree 100% guessing isn't a good thing... at least we have common ground in that. Estimating distance is a required field skill if you're 1) shooting at distance or 2) with a platform that requires it, such as a pistol, bow, or round with a healthy diverse flight path. I keep my sub and pistol shots at 50 yards.

Perhaps you should pay more attention to your posts because YOU opened up the door and EXPANDED the initial point of this post, which was DEER HUNTING SUBSONIC with this post:

South Dakota requires that soft point expanding bullets must produce 1000 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle to qualify as a legal big game round. A comparatively anemic subsonic round is both unethical and illegal.

You made a declarative statement that "A comparatively anemic subsonic round is both unethical and illegal" and not only do I disagree, I've posted ample first-hand field evidence that that's a bunch of bull.

You're the one who lumped sub-sonic soft expanding bullets that lack 1000 ft./lbs. of energy into the "unethical" category, I simply posted proof that you're full of crap and misinformation.

We differ in opinion:

You- hunting medium game (specified by you in post #34) with an anemic subsonic round is unethical.

Me- bullshit, I do it all the time as demonstrated by my pics and videos.
 
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Mean while in Arkansas... Deer Hunters are assembling straight walled cartridge in lieu of muzzle loading season... funny never really noted a muzzle loader going supersonic??
Which is why this time of year getting on range is a pain. Maybe closer to the end of this week I can actually do that ladder test with TAC, which looks good in the load data, Although IMR4064 is my preferred powder. (just don't want to drive to Little Rock and get a re-supply and load data showing tac is a bit faster IDK maybe not be a good sub)
Do they have muzzle loading season in South Dakota?
 
Sgt_Mike said:
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Mean while in Arkansas... Deer Hunters are assembling straight walled cartridge in lieu of muzzle loading season... funny never really noted a muzzle loader going supersonic??
Which is why this time of year getting on range is a pain. Maybe closer to the end of this week I can actually do that ladder test with TAC, which looks good in the load data, Although IMR4064 is my preferred powder. (just don't want to drive to Little Rock and get a re-supply and load data showing tac is a bit faster IDK maybe not be a good sub)
Do they have muzzle loading season in South Dakota?
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Our muzzle season opens this Saturday in North Florida and whoo-hoo I'm off... can't wait. The temps are dropping some here as well, will be in the low 50's for the first time.

Can you actually get IMR 4064? I'm Jelly if you can as I've not seen it available for going on two years.
 
2LayZ2 said:
Not all unethical actions are illegal, but ALL illegal actions are generally considered unethical. So yeah...definitely put my name at the top of the “anything illegal is unethical” supporter list.
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Illegal = unethical

You're the one who lumped sub-sonic soft expanding bullets that lack 1000 ft./lbs. of energy into the "unethical" category.

No.....South Dakota did.

I've posted ample first-hand field evidence. Most of it off topic and irrelevant.

So when should I expect that apology?
 
But it's legal to shoot deer with muzzle loaders in South Dakota? which don't have to actually meet the 1000 ft lbs requirement Right? Just have to be .44 caliber or larger in a rifle? and no scopes. IDK sounds like a double standard to me ... Ooohhh wait yeah that's right the laws are wrote by people whom don't hunt as a rule.
 
Honestly yeah yes you did imply anyone whom uses "subsonic" as unethical and then post up a centerfire rule in your home state stating 1000 ft lbs. Well brother most of us can use subsonic, in other states legally. And it is ethical, even your own state admits that and the Muzzle loader is the proof, no Muzzle loader running black powder break the sound barrier ,, when is the last time you heard a muzzle loader have the same sonic crack as a centerfire??? never maybe?? And NO WHERE in your state laws state that a subsonic centerfire is unethical it JUST HAS to met 1000 ft lbs, that was on you implying YOUR standards on other folks... The OP is from S.C. it's been a while since I was in the Carolinas.. pretty sure that same law your qouting is NOT the way it's wrote in S.C.
apology for what??? hurt feeling?
You do you and let others do them. And yes IF I HUNTED in SD I would most assuredly follow their game laws.. But if my state allows subsonic use and I wanted to use it.. yeah i will. And yes I would get offended by someone touting your message.
 
@Bowhntr6pt ,
One of my friends here a 'smith" set himself up with a heck of a straight walled cartridge, which here replaced pretty much muzzle loading season.. a lever gun in .500 S&W talk about a brute even in a lever gun.. but yeah one can still use a muzzle loader. which honestly with the CWD in the northern part of the state the quicker they can get the population down the easier it will be to contain it.
 
Compare apples to apples; not apples to oranges. A solid lead round ball, a Hornady Sub X, and a Hornady XTP are not suitable for side by side comparison due to the fact that the ballistics differ significantly and that they are designed to fulfill separate and unique requirements imposed by weapons systems that share little in common. Go figure..maybe that's why XTP bullets which are shown as neither suppressed or subsonic are not a good fit in a forum about deer hunting subsonic.

Beam me up Mr Scott....There's no sign of intelligent life here.
 
2LayZ2 said:
Compare apples to apples; not apples to oranges. A solid lead round ball, a Hornady Sub X, and a Hornady XTP are not suitable for side by side comparison due to the fact that the ballistics differ significantly and that they are designed to fulfill separate and unique requirements imposed by weapons systems that share little in common. Go figure..maybe that's why XTP bullets which are shown as neither suppressed or subsonic are not a good fit in a forum about deer hunting subsonic.

Beam me up Mr Scott....There's no sign of intelligent life here.
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Wrong again… keep in mind the mountain you chose to defend… terminal performance of 1000 ft./lbs. as a minimal ethical standard.

You’re entertaining to say the least.

I don’t think you know squat about ballistics, terminal performance, let alone ethical killing besides what a government entity tells you.

You make for a good subservient subject lol.
 
I honestly don't think 2layZ2 actually gets what we as in Bowhntr6pt and I are attempting to relay, and why we are both pushing so hard back on. Even though we both was pretty clear why we was pushing back, for the exact same reason. 2LayZ2 is entitled to his opinion, and that is not the issue it's the pushing it on others (his opinion under the guise of ethics) is why I jumped in. South Dakota has nothing to do with South Carolina.

The OP DoubleLungRage clearly defined his objectives , methods as well as reasoning. At the short range as the OP is saying yeah those should be deadly I have NO doubt the OP wouldn't even think about a shot he couldn't place cleanly, and effectively. The loads he is describing are akin to .300 BO, .308x1.5 Barnes Subsonics which would fill the bill as well as what the OP is asking about. The only difference is the case and the type of projectile which is supposed to be designed to expand at the low velocity and yes they sale them for reloading and one could put them in the .308 Win/300BO/308x1.5 Barnes case aka 30 BR, the only difference would be the size of the case which is a moot point under the speed of sound is under the speed of sound.

Deer have been harvested in that exact range (under 100yds /50 to 75 yards) with soft lead/and or expanding subsonic projectiles for as long as the U.S. has been here. I don't hunt Deer anymore (since Desert Storm), nor do I shoot Muzzle loaders, and really have little interest in subsonic .30 caliber except for maybe just to see how quite they are.
But THOUSANDS of Sportsmen do and ethically take their shots and harvest deer on a annual basis. To imply that they are unethical because they are shooting subsonic, just get my ire up. When it comes to actually hunting for me it's varmints for me personally. To each their own.
It would offend the crap out of me if someone attacked someone desiring to Yote hunt on here. Geez even in the late 1800's there was gallery loads or sometimes referred to as cat sneeze rounds used to take game. Heck around here I see guys with .300 Win mags and shoot deer at 50 yds.. I think to myself well that about overkill but I voice hey that is great, did ya have fun?? It works for them.
 
2LayZ2 said:
Illegal = unethical

You're the one who lumped sub-sonic soft expanding bullets that lack 1000 ft./lbs. of energy into the "unethical" category.

No.....South Dakota did.

I've posted ample first-hand field evidence. Most of it off topic and irrelevant.

So when should I expect that apology?
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You keep bringing up this SD law as some sort of gold standard for hunting deer, but did you bother to read the second half of the sentence, and then think about it?

Big Game Regulations
Shoulder-held firearms using ammunition rated to produce at least 1,000 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle and handguns using ammunition that is rated to produce at least 500 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle, may be used to hunt deer, antelope, and mountain lion.

So one type of firearm is only "ethical" if it produces 1,000 foot-pounds of energy, but if I shorten that firearm so it can fit in my pocket, then it can produce half that energy and still be "ethical"?
It's almost like someone came up with these regulations in broad strokes so that they could rule out a number of smaller cartridges like 22LR that truly are "anemic" without having to name them all.
I'm not trying to tell anyone to break that law in SD, but trying to use it as some sort of universal truth to conclude that subsonic rounds are "unethical" is retarded.


Also, this is a little off topic, but because you posted it twice and are clearly either short-sighted or confused. Illegal != Unethical. You think all laws passed by man are just? There are plenty of cases where the ethical choice is technically illegal. As a depraved society continues to pass increasingly evil laws, it becomes your moral obligation to not follow them.
 
SupressYourself said:
You keep bringing up this SD law as some sort of gold standard for hunting deer, but did you bother to read the second half of the sentence, and then think about it?

Big Game Regulations
Shoulder-held firearms using ammunition rated to produce at least 1,000 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle and handguns using ammunition that is rated to produce at least 500 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle, may be used to hunt deer, antelope, and mountain lion.

So one type of firearm is only "ethical" if it produces 1,000 foot-pounds of energy, but if I shorten that firearm so it can fit in my pocket, then it can produce half that energy and still be "ethical"?
It's almost like someone came up with these regulations in broad strokes so that they could rule out a number of smaller cartridges like 22LR that truly are "anemic" without having to name them all.
I'm not trying to tell anyone to break that law in SD, but trying to use it as some sort of universal truth to conclude that subsonic rounds are "unethical" is retarded.


Also, this is a little off topic, but because you posted it twice and are clearly either short-sighted or confused. Illegal != Unethical. You think all laws passed by man are just? There are plenty of cases where the ethical choice is technically illegal. As a depraved society continues to pass increasingly evil laws, it becomes your moral obligation to not follow them.
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Thank you for demonstrating just how subjective and stupid the law is on face value.
 
I just got back from a trip to Scotland a couple weeks ago. The red deer (stag) roar was in full swing. I would wager 90 percent of the deer that are taken in Scotland are taken with suppressed rifles. I don't know if they are shooting subs or not but it seemed more uncommon to see a firearm without a suppressor. Bowhunting isn't legal there, so I have no plans to immigrate. lol

I am going to do some more research because I might just have to book a hunt one of these trips. It's a whole lot closer than New Zealand.
 
I just read this entire thread. Smiled several times. Eitchs vs legal. Legal = ethical. When I got my first suppressor I wanted to shoot a deer with a suppressed rifle. AR rifles are legal here in Va to hunt with (not where I grew up in northwestern PA.) So I first built just lower and bought completed upper in 6.5 Grendel to be legal to hunt deer with. I just wanted that picture of the AR laying with the deer. I don’t know something to show my PA buddies semi auto haters because they’re illegal there I guess. Well then I had this suppressor and was neat and shooting suppressed became by next want. That also lead into I wanted to build another AR upper and lower this time all myself. So all these wants to do things for enjoyment lead me to build the .300 blackout. Then I started shooting suppressed subsonic and having already shot a coyote with a suppressed supersonic round heating the impact, made me wonder what a subsonic suppressed round would sound like. All I did was check the law. It was legal. Knowing that a compound bow kills plenty of deer with minuscule ft pounds of energy, I guess I never checked my moral compass and said “it’s legal I’m trying it.” Knowing I was going to a spot where I would and could only take shots inside 40 yards (literally yes 40 max) I took the suppressed subsonic .300 blackout one day, got a shot at a doe at 35 yards, shot it right in front of the shoulder, a bit high, on purpose, because in my experience there’s that spot where they go right down. Let me tell you, it went right down and sounded like a baseball bat smacking a giant tub of butter. It was so much fun it made me laugh quietly out loud. People are probably going to slam me for it. I would not make this my go to hunting set up by any means, too many variables if I’m trying to get a shot a lot of times. I was just going to make sure everything was perfect with that set up knowing a slightly bad angle or far shot or buck fever so to speak could cause an unethical shot a lot easier with that than my 30-06.
 
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