Lets put it this way my wifes uncle is Tommy Ryno .He has his on guide service in Kerrville and that buck could have easly have cost that guy 10,000 possibly 15,000 bucks and i can guarentee he will not be allowed back on that ranch .I'm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif sure he was probably shown the way to the gate real fast .
Deer on Game Ranches
- Thread starter furflyer
- Start date
I suppose this makes sense to somebody, but danged if I can figure it out...
You're right, that post was the perfect candidate for the bunny pic /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
crapshoot
Well-known member
I believe this was in referance to this thread.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000595
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000595
swift one
New member
I have a hard time trying to self justify spending $10,000-15,000 on a deer hunt. But then again, folks spend three times as much to climb Mt. Everest and I can agree with that. To each their own. I wonder what would happen to him if he did not pay the hefty price? Is there acontract that you sign when going to these places?
Swifty, you're sounding like a newbie here! Did you learn nothing when you came down and hung around our place?! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Anyways, I can't view the movie in question for some reason but I've got a pretty good idea what it shows. I know the Texas (and southern ranches in general) are run differently than ours but here's one thing I know.
We guide 100% so there is someone sitting over the hunters shoulder each time he flips the safety off. Guides are there to help the hunters find an animal they are after. If they shoot a deer they aren't supposed too... well... it was their choice and weakness not a marketing ploy. If you went to a car lot to buy a taurus but fell in love with the mustang that is your choice... how you pay for it is up to you. He killed the deer, that's like driving away in the Mustang... he'll definatly have to deal with FordCredit at some point. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I guess that's a botched up way of awnsering your questions but it's the best I can put together for ya. When you're down next month we'll go over this whole thing again and I'll show you the differences in deer and WHY those differences exist. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Anyways, I can't view the movie in question for some reason but I've got a pretty good idea what it shows. I know the Texas (and southern ranches in general) are run differently than ours but here's one thing I know.
We guide 100% so there is someone sitting over the hunters shoulder each time he flips the safety off. Guides are there to help the hunters find an animal they are after. If they shoot a deer they aren't supposed too... well... it was their choice and weakness not a marketing ploy. If you went to a car lot to buy a taurus but fell in love with the mustang that is your choice... how you pay for it is up to you. He killed the deer, that's like driving away in the Mustang... he'll definatly have to deal with FordCredit at some point. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I guess that's a botched up way of awnsering your questions but it's the best I can put together for ya. When you're down next month we'll go over this whole thing again and I'll show you the differences in deer and WHY those differences exist. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
swift one
New member
Ha Ha , JRB! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif You, your dad, and your brother did a very good job of explaining it to me. But even when your brother was talking about the $10,000 elk hunt he was giving and the $5000 deer hunts that he runs I was thinking to myself, "I can think of a hell of alot of things to do with that kind of money." But, I understand that everone has different passions and hobbies. I am not knocking anyone for paying that much for a hunt- it's their option. I know those deer can get expensive to buy and you want to kep your gene pool going strong. But like you said, it seems to me that they run things a little different out there than what you guys do down south.
I agree with you about the guide thing. If they are so worried about loosing their breeder bucks to poor judgment calls form clients, they should have a guide out there to give the "Shoot, no shoot" order. I personally cannot tell the difference between an 8 point or a 10 point at a distance. But, that may be a result of my inexperience of deer hunting. I would definatley want your brother at my shoulder telling me which one to take.
Some guy on another thread said this is the reason that he does not hunt upper limit ranches and I can completely agree with him. My sorry but would see a 12 point come out, go into adreneline mode, pull the trigger, then have to file bankruptcy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
That is too bad that you cannot view the video. I am sure that you would not agree with the hosts behavior. I DO NOT agree with the way the guide in that video just drove off and left those folks out there. I wondr if the schmuck ever returned for them, or if someone else had to come and get them. I do not care if is Texas and I shot his top breeder, he and I would be having some words when we met up again. Mistakes happen, people need to be held acountable for them, but ranch hosts should not throw tantrums and display such poor buisiness professionalism.
I agree with you about the guide thing. If they are so worried about loosing their breeder bucks to poor judgment calls form clients, they should have a guide out there to give the "Shoot, no shoot" order. I personally cannot tell the difference between an 8 point or a 10 point at a distance. But, that may be a result of my inexperience of deer hunting. I would definatley want your brother at my shoulder telling me which one to take.
Some guy on another thread said this is the reason that he does not hunt upper limit ranches and I can completely agree with him. My sorry but would see a 12 point come out, go into adreneline mode, pull the trigger, then have to file bankruptcy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
That is too bad that you cannot view the video. I am sure that you would not agree with the hosts behavior. I DO NOT agree with the way the guide in that video just drove off and left those folks out there. I wondr if the schmuck ever returned for them, or if someone else had to come and get them. I do not care if is Texas and I shot his top breeder, he and I would be having some words when we met up again. Mistakes happen, people need to be held acountable for them, but ranch hosts should not throw tantrums and display such poor buisiness professionalism.
swift one
New member
JRB, glad the video formatt worked for ya. I was suprised to here you understood the host driving off like that. I don't know, the way that I see it, the dude already made a mistake, I am sure that he is going to be forced to pay for the deer, so why throw a tantrum?
I do agree with your evaluation of the video. It does appear that the hunter had already discovered the mistake that he made before the host arrived. Thta was not cool to try and play the deaf and dumb routine. Maybe that is why the host got so mad. I would have just came out and said, "My bad, what's the damage going to be?"
I do agree with your evaluation of the video. It does appear that the hunter had already discovered the mistake that he made before the host arrived. Thta was not cool to try and play the deaf and dumb routine. Maybe that is why the host got so mad. I would have just came out and said, "My bad, what's the damage going to be?"
Now you're confusing me again. You are replying to the post I made in the other thread right?! Okay here goes,
It's hard to explain the whole situation really... but this hunter knew he had done wrong. He was supposed to kill a cull buck, a cull buck being a deer with inferior genetics and/or antler development. Sometimes deer that are injured in fights produce racks that warrant a CULL nametag... sometimes their genetics give them a weak 6 or 8 point wrack with no spread or no tine length. It sounds like he was supposed to be shooting a narrow 8 pointer, thus the "tight racked" comment the guide made.
A tight racked buck is probably 13-15 inches wide in this case... I'm guessing... the deer he took is much-much wider than that much less tine length and kickers. The deer he should've taken and the one he did take are apples and oranges.
It's like you telling your son to go get himself a cookie and he comes back with an entire apple pie... you know he knew better... he was pushing the limits and testing the rules. This isn't a "mistake", if it was that close to call they would've had a guide with him at all times but the culls and the keepers are very different. Apparently they had guided him the day before and pointed out this "tight racked 8 pointer" for him... apparently they trusted him enough to sit him by himself to take that deer.
Again, it's hard to explain but there is a sinking feeling involved when this happens. Hunters wound deer, hunters miss deer but when they flat out shoot something they are not supposed too it is personally aggrevating to the guides. Accidents will happen, theft and deception won't.
Much less if the owner had a real attachment to that buck in particular: which judging by his reaction he did. In my opinion he had a hunter lined up to hunt that 180" buck in the near future and here is this dillweed standing over it after paying for a cull hunt saying "aww shucks".
It's hard to explain the whole situation really... but this hunter knew he had done wrong. He was supposed to kill a cull buck, a cull buck being a deer with inferior genetics and/or antler development. Sometimes deer that are injured in fights produce racks that warrant a CULL nametag... sometimes their genetics give them a weak 6 or 8 point wrack with no spread or no tine length. It sounds like he was supposed to be shooting a narrow 8 pointer, thus the "tight racked" comment the guide made.
A tight racked buck is probably 13-15 inches wide in this case... I'm guessing... the deer he took is much-much wider than that much less tine length and kickers. The deer he should've taken and the one he did take are apples and oranges.
It's like you telling your son to go get himself a cookie and he comes back with an entire apple pie... you know he knew better... he was pushing the limits and testing the rules. This isn't a "mistake", if it was that close to call they would've had a guide with him at all times but the culls and the keepers are very different. Apparently they had guided him the day before and pointed out this "tight racked 8 pointer" for him... apparently they trusted him enough to sit him by himself to take that deer.
Again, it's hard to explain but there is a sinking feeling involved when this happens. Hunters wound deer, hunters miss deer but when they flat out shoot something they are not supposed too it is personally aggrevating to the guides. Accidents will happen, theft and deception won't.
Much less if the owner had a real attachment to that buck in particular: which judging by his reaction he did. In my opinion he had a hunter lined up to hunt that 180" buck in the near future and here is this dillweed standing over it after paying for a cull hunt saying "aww shucks".
Alaskan Yoter
Well-known member
I'm just guessing here but that group fellas seemed like they were more then just hunter/guides. The way they spoke they seemed like old friends or friends of frieds.
Now to add that fella new what he shot and was probably already standing at the deer when he heard the truck comming down the road. This would be confirmed with some of the other things he said. Bone head might or might not have known what he shot at the time but he sure did when he walked up to it! Hence all the BS talk he was shooting.
I would have to commend Jimmy for driving off to cool down. If that was infact a big $$$ buck and that was my operation. I would do the same (Better then the other options). Matter fact I thought Jimmy handled it well up until the video cut off /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif He didnt leave them long, maybe just turned the truck around? At the end of the video they said he was coming back. So I don't think he left them out there.
With that said I wouldn't pay that kind of money to hunt deer, especcially to shoot a cull. If your culling shouldn't be free?
Todd
Now to add that fella new what he shot and was probably already standing at the deer when he heard the truck comming down the road. This would be confirmed with some of the other things he said. Bone head might or might not have known what he shot at the time but he sure did when he walked up to it! Hence all the BS talk he was shooting.
I would have to commend Jimmy for driving off to cool down. If that was infact a big $$$ buck and that was my operation. I would do the same (Better then the other options). Matter fact I thought Jimmy handled it well up until the video cut off /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif He didnt leave them long, maybe just turned the truck around? At the end of the video they said he was coming back. So I don't think he left them out there.
With that said I wouldn't pay that kind of money to hunt deer, especcially to shoot a cull. If your culling shouldn't be free?
Todd
Yoter, what it appears in the video is that there is a group of two or three friends, Jim the rancher and one guide. You can hear the one guy saying "This is bull$hit" in the background and at one point he says something like "Dude, you're a dumba$$". Whoever that is talking knows full well the situation at hand... and he's the one that later speaks up for Jimmy's character. I'm guessing all the other guys are clients, clueless and half drunk.
On the culls, nothing is free. Lodging, food, guides and liability add up. These are usually the base minimum price... they are not money maker hunts by any means. I looked into coyote hunting a ranch in Texas and the lodging prices alone where $700 for a week... to take a cull whitetail was $1,000. I'm not sure how that holds up across the board, but it just goes to show you that culls are your bottom dollar hunt and people taking advantage of them is pretty frustrating.
On the culls, nothing is free. Lodging, food, guides and liability add up. These are usually the base minimum price... they are not money maker hunts by any means. I looked into coyote hunting a ranch in Texas and the lodging prices alone where $700 for a week... to take a cull whitetail was $1,000. I'm not sure how that holds up across the board, but it just goes to show you that culls are your bottom dollar hunt and people taking advantage of them is pretty frustrating.
Brian Bentley
New member
Well,
At risk of stepping on a few toes I will explain this about Texas wildlife laws.
First, He killed a legal deer in the state of Texas. He paid for a STATE license and killed a deer that fell within the legal state limits. His liability to the state are NOT breached.
Now totally depending on the legal paperwork that the Perlitz or any ranch for that matter has the client/hunter sign he could be writing a huge check or the ranch owner could be denying him access to his property in the future. He CANNOT, however, deny him legal ownership of any legal animal harvested. If his paperwork is in order he could require additional payment though.
Let me explain. If there was NO document explicitly explaining the size and/or score limitations the hunter's liability is not for any additional payment for any deer. If there was a clause in the contract that specified that to be granted access to the property a specified number of points or B&C score had to be held in consideration, he is pretty much liable for the cost, whatever that may be, that the ranch owner imposes. In either event the property owner CANNOT deny him posession of the deer, legally.
In the State of Texas, others may be the same I haven't checked, but in Texas at least, a land owner cannot LEGALLY charge for a "deer". For as you know, whitetail deer are a"STATE", or public resource and cannot be "owned" privately. If a landowner wants to charge a trespass fee and a hunter agrees to it, whatever that may be, then he can charge whatever the market will bear. But to "Sell" wildlife is illegal. If it were legal and the deer could be privately owned then state regulations would not apply as far as limits and seasons. Case in point, exotic animals are owned, as livestock, and can be harvested at any time.
I know that my new is not the concensus or popular but from a legal standpoint, but I have spoken with a number of wildlife biologists, attornies, judges, game officials over the past few years. I have a friend who owns and operates a high fenced ranch and sells "Deer" Hunts. To legally Charge for points or score or any deer in particular for that matter the landowner would have to legally OWN the animal in question. Whitetail Deer are wildlife and as such are owned by the public. Legally a landowner cannot charge for the deer. He can charge for property trespass and within the contract stipulate that a particular limit on size or quality of animal can be harvested and that those limitations are part of the consideration for that access.
I know a few of you may not be with me on this one but I can assure your that in the research of the legal attributes of high fence hunting or low fence hunting on private property, I have found these evidences to be absolutely true.
Hope this sheds some light. I am curious the outcome of the guy in the video clip and what he had to do.
At risk of stepping on a few toes I will explain this about Texas wildlife laws.
First, He killed a legal deer in the state of Texas. He paid for a STATE license and killed a deer that fell within the legal state limits. His liability to the state are NOT breached.
Now totally depending on the legal paperwork that the Perlitz or any ranch for that matter has the client/hunter sign he could be writing a huge check or the ranch owner could be denying him access to his property in the future. He CANNOT, however, deny him legal ownership of any legal animal harvested. If his paperwork is in order he could require additional payment though.
Let me explain. If there was NO document explicitly explaining the size and/or score limitations the hunter's liability is not for any additional payment for any deer. If there was a clause in the contract that specified that to be granted access to the property a specified number of points or B&C score had to be held in consideration, he is pretty much liable for the cost, whatever that may be, that the ranch owner imposes. In either event the property owner CANNOT deny him posession of the deer, legally.
In the State of Texas, others may be the same I haven't checked, but in Texas at least, a land owner cannot LEGALLY charge for a "deer". For as you know, whitetail deer are a"STATE", or public resource and cannot be "owned" privately. If a landowner wants to charge a trespass fee and a hunter agrees to it, whatever that may be, then he can charge whatever the market will bear. But to "Sell" wildlife is illegal. If it were legal and the deer could be privately owned then state regulations would not apply as far as limits and seasons. Case in point, exotic animals are owned, as livestock, and can be harvested at any time.
I know that my new is not the concensus or popular but from a legal standpoint, but I have spoken with a number of wildlife biologists, attornies, judges, game officials over the past few years. I have a friend who owns and operates a high fenced ranch and sells "Deer" Hunts. To legally Charge for points or score or any deer in particular for that matter the landowner would have to legally OWN the animal in question. Whitetail Deer are wildlife and as such are owned by the public. Legally a landowner cannot charge for the deer. He can charge for property trespass and within the contract stipulate that a particular limit on size or quality of animal can be harvested and that those limitations are part of the consideration for that access.
I know a few of you may not be with me on this one but I can assure your that in the research of the legal attributes of high fence hunting or low fence hunting on private property, I have found these evidences to be absolutely true.
Hope this sheds some light. I am curious the outcome of the guy in the video clip and what he had to do.
Good stuff Brian. Sounds like Texas laws are very similar to Indiana's. I don't think you stepped on any toes... not sure anyone was of the belief the guy broke a law or didn't have rights to the animal. The one thing that is a varible is what the Perlitz paperwork says on it... I'd be a pretty penny they are covered for this situation. I've never seen an operation that didn't have signatures to cover these situations... can't imagine the Perlitz doesn't use CYA papers.
Again, because of these contracts and terms of lease the rancher will get his money... his disgust makes me think this is a deer he didn't want killed PERIOD. Otherwise he'd just shrug his shoulders and ask for another check... there appears to be more to the story here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Again, because of these contracts and terms of lease the rancher will get his money... his disgust makes me think this is a deer he didn't want killed PERIOD. Otherwise he'd just shrug his shoulders and ask for another check... there appears to be more to the story here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
grinr
New member
i agree with A.yoter here,looks like a few buddies out for a free cull hunt maybe.Maybe Jim the guide,being a nice guy,invited a few freinds out to the ranch,now one of them screwed him and now he's got som 'Splainin to do.I doubt if Jim is the owner,like jrb said,just shrug and hand over the fee.the whole thing kinda wreaks of someting fishy though.Why would Perlitz put their name on it? Not very good advertising.Perhaps they use it as a training video to show new clients on low$$ hunts what not to do /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I had never even considered the hunt being a freebee... I guess that's a possiblity. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif If so they may not have signed agreements and such... that would change the ball game a bit.
The Purlitz definatly doesn't need the advertising, they have clientell built up for years to come... I doubt it's a publicity stunt but it is strange.
Anyways, I know one person that hunts those ranches and shoots little deer that should be free is Tommy Johnson. Maybe he can tell us where to find one of those free or really cheap hunts?! I mean, there is NO WAY he's paying for the deer I've seen him with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
The Purlitz definatly doesn't need the advertising, they have clientell built up for years to come... I doubt it's a publicity stunt but it is strange.
Anyways, I know one person that hunts those ranches and shoots little deer that should be free is Tommy Johnson. Maybe he can tell us where to find one of those free or really cheap hunts?! I mean, there is NO WAY he's paying for the deer I've seen him with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Tommy Johnson
New member
To the discerning eye, it was all a joke.
These type of ranches never let a hunter off to hunt by himself, even on cull hunts. And I am almost positive that the Perlitz is no different. For those that hunt this way it was quite funny since we all joke around about these very happenings while we sit around the camp fire hocking lugies, scratchin ourselves, and drinking col' beer.
You know 3 trophies standing there with a weaker management on the right when the guide says "ok take the one on the right" then the one on the left falls. "No your other right."
Im sure its greek to those who's states dont operate this way.
There are still season and year leases available where a group of guys all pitch in to cover the total cost. Again its all supply and demand, if its a good area then the price per acre will adjust itself to the going rate. The only problem with that is "Bob" wants to bring all his next of kin out there for free, they all tag out leaving you to hunt the remaining dinks of the ranch. You never know what you getting yourself into. There are still some good opportunities out there but you really have to know who your running with, and there has to be some type of guidelines established prior to the season.
These type of ranches never let a hunter off to hunt by himself, even on cull hunts. And I am almost positive that the Perlitz is no different. For those that hunt this way it was quite funny since we all joke around about these very happenings while we sit around the camp fire hocking lugies, scratchin ourselves, and drinking col' beer.
You know 3 trophies standing there with a weaker management on the right when the guide says "ok take the one on the right" then the one on the left falls. "No your other right." Im sure its greek to those who's states dont operate this way.
There are still season and year leases available where a group of guys all pitch in to cover the total cost. Again its all supply and demand, if its a good area then the price per acre will adjust itself to the going rate. The only problem with that is "Bob" wants to bring all his next of kin out there for free, they all tag out leaving you to hunt the remaining dinks of the ranch. You never know what you getting yourself into. There are still some good opportunities out there but you really have to know who your running with, and there has to be some type of guidelines established prior to the season.
Tommy Johnson
New member
Lay there and take it Ha Im a mod, Im supposed to. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif