Disappointing Expansion? 911 AMMO GOO-ROOS!

jhall

jhall

New member
Hi Guys,

I am a little shocked with some results from the field today. I'll fill you in on the variables involved and then go into detail about what happened...

I'm shooting an AR-15 that's topped with a DPMS complete upper (5.56 16" chrome-moly bull barrel w/ Levang comp., 1x9 twist). I have shot about eight diff. types of ammo from this gun, which I have narrowed down to four that I prefer. I am using the gun for predator hunting (hence the the reason I'm on this forum
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) and whitetail (head/neck shots) Listed in order from the most preferred hunting round due to accuracy, weight, etc. (from bi-pod):

Hornady 75g /.223 TAP (hollow point)
100yd = 1" high / .93" group
200yd = .75" low / 2.33" group
300yd = 7.63" low / 5.63" group

Hornady 55g / .223 Steel Match (hollow point)
100 yd = .75" high / 2.32" group
200 yd = .60" high / 1.68" group
300 yd = 7.28" low / 4.87" group

Black Hills 69g / .223 Match King (hollow point)
100 yd = .25" high / 1.25" group
200 yd = 3.80" low / 3.66" group

I also shoot 62gr 5.56 fmj's Federal when messing around which is actually the least accurate round out of the four. Not bad at 100yd w/ a 1.36" group but at 200yd she gets pretty wild w/ a 4.92" group.

Alright, and here is the part that I'm so stumped about... because I like the twist/weight match of my gun and the Hornady 75gr TAP, I have chosen to use it for the swamp doggies. I filled a pumpkin w/ water to see what kinda thump it'd deliver at 75yd. Don't get me wrong, if a coyote received half of the punishment that the pumpkin did you could forget about a pelt or mount! However, I found the round lodged in the back wall of the pumpkin which was only 1.5" thick at the max. Like I said this thing was filled with water, plugged, and total outside diameter apprx. 12".

Results of the round... the Hornady 75gr. TAP NEVER EXPANDED? What the heck? At 75yd I'm honestly surprised that I found the round! The first of the two pieces recovered was the tail end of the projectile. It consists of the inverted circular butt piece of with a little bit of side wall from the jacket that had pealed back. The second piece recovered was the UN-expanded front half or so of the round. The hollow point was completely in tact with literally no damage to the perfect circular tip. It appeared as if it had been pinched just behind the tip and the core was squished out of the back. It was almost flat and the serated lines (for insuring expansion) were more clear but still in tact as well. I hit the pumpkin smack dab in the center which had a fairly flat side.

My question is this... Why has the ole' Hornady let me down? What took place that prohibited the round from expanding like it should have?
 
IIRC, the AMP jacket is used in the TAP. Thats a match type bullet. They are made for consistent build, not necessarily for expansion. They arent really designed to expand, but more like fragment.

I was watching a pred hunting video, they were useing the TAP ammo. He commented on their lack of killing power. He said they acted much like FMJs. I don't recall which hunter it was.
 
Originally Posted By: pahntr760IIRC, the AMP jacket is used in the TAP. Thats a match type bullet. They are made for consistent build, not necessarily for expansion. They arent really designed to expand, but more like fragment.

I was watching a pred hunting video, they were useing the TAP ammo. He commented on their lack of killing power. He said they acted much like FMJs. I don't recall which hunter it was.

+1 on that
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To the OP, try a 60gr V-Max next time in your test.
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pahntr760,

Thanks for your response. I was unaware of the TAP ammo capabilities prior to your input. From reviews and general inquiries about TAP FPD and similar rounds, I have assumed that this was designed to be a self-defense e/devastating round and various ranges. Expansion as opposed to fragmentation is something that I have not seriously considered distinguishing between, but, it makes sense. It definitely fragmented, which provided some devastating results, but it definitely didn't expand. I just assumed that a hollow point bullet would open upon impact? Do you see this ammo being a good/bad round for coyote/white-tail (head/neck) round, if no, any suggestions given previous info about bullet weight/twist results? Thanks man.

Justin
 
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Smokeless:

I've seen what a 30-06 v-max does to the whitetail, that's my round of choice in that application, OUCH. My only concern with utilizing a v-max in the .223 is the limitations. My particular setup has proven to provide better results with either a heavy tap or 55gr steel match? I'm assuming (obviously) that the carbine length bull barrel and Levang comp. combination affects diff. bullet weight/material/etc. significantly. How do you foresee a 60gr. v-max comparing to trajectory/accuracy of my previously provided results for diff. rounds? Or, is there a heavy (70/75gr.) THAT EXPANDS, that you suggest? Thanks for your time.

Justin
 
Try the 65g Sierra GameKings. If your gun likes heavier bullets it will probably love them. They should work nice on dogs and deer.
 
All I am saying is that the loads you have tested are not designed to expand. Penetration, and expansion are two different things.

I would suggest more of a hunting bullet, like the V-max, Sierra Game King, or the Speer 70gr sp. These bullets are proven performers, and are reliable, and dependable for hunting.
 
Originally Posted By: unloadedTry the 65g Sierra GameKings. If your gun likes heavier bullets it will probably love them. They should work nice on dogs and deer.

This would be my deer load.

And this for coyotes.



I'm not a big supporter of "match" bullets for hunting. Maybe varmints. But not preds or deer.
 
It should probably be mentioned that, just because some bullets expand (by design) and some fragment (also by design) that fragmenting bullets are not somehow less lethal. They just each go about it in a different way. Expanding bullets deliver more shock trauma, while fragmenting bullets create multiple would channels causing massive hemorrhaging. Each has it's merits and application.

Specifically to the OP, the pieces you recovered in the pumpkin sound like just what you should expect to find from a fragmenting bullet.
 
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Originally Posted By: ricky_arthurIt should probably be mentioned that, just because some bullets expand (by design) and some fragment (also by design) that fragmenting bullets are not somehow less lethal. They just each go about it in a different way. Expanding bullets deliver more shock trauma, while fragmenting bullets create multiple would channels causing massive hemorrhaging. Each has it's merits and application.

Specifically to the OP, the pieces you recovered in the pumpkin sound like just what you should expect to find from a fragmenting bullet.


Fragmenting bullets, by design are far less predictable in terms of terminal performance. Sometimes they frag, sometimes they expand, and sometimes they act like a full metal jacket. Also, with out knowing the actual muzzle velocity, in this case with a 16" tube it will be low, we cant know for sure the bullet rpm. Bullet rpm plays a large role in terminal bullet performance.

All of this , and more, is why when used for hunting purposes, a bullet designed for expansion is preferred.

Again, match bullets, however they are defined, are unpredictable for a hunting situation, and sometimes even unethical.

As a side, hunting with a 16" barreled .223 Rem in a AR platform is akin to hunting with a T/C Encore pistol with a 15" barrel. Shots at longer range will be iffy for lethality with match bullets [coyotes], at range they will act more like full metal jackets. JMO2

Match bullets are lethal, just unpredictable terminally. While expanding bullets are predictable terminally.
 
Thanks to all that responded... I'm gonna try some of the 65gr Sierra GameKings and Speer 70gr sp to see which provides the best groups. I may even do a ballistics gel test unless one is far more accurate than the other.
 


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