AzDiamondHeat
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Well, does it?
Does annealing affect POI?
- Thread starter AzDiamondHeat
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AzDiamondHeat
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A more precise question... Does it change poi by simply changing grouping, or is there a definitive "shift" in poi beyond merely tightening the group?
Buster Hindend
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Originally Posted By: AzDiamondHeatWell, does it?
All I know is you have the coolest avatar in history
All I know is you have the coolest avatar in history
Carolina Coyote
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I am not an expert on this topic but recently had experience of what happens if you don't anneal. I shoot a 243wssm and was not annealing the brass and started getting circumference cracks around the base of the neck and around the base head. Not sure how many times the brass had been reload but the problem was the Brass had got so hard that when resizing using a shoulder bump die the when the sizing button came out the brass did not expand out enough that left to much tension on the bullet, this was causing over pressure that was causing the cracks and it was also affecting the point of impact. The wssm brass is thicker and by all means needs to be annealed.
Smokeless
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Cracks in and around the neck are from the brass being too hard and work hardened. Annealing will fix that.
Cracks above the "head" or base of the case is caused from excess headspace.
Two different problems that are unrelated.
When cases become hard, neck tension does increase and that does raise pressure slightly. However, the increase in pressure is variable, case to the next, because the necks are not all the same hardness. This does cause groups to open up and a shift in point of impact. Think of it as being crimped in a random fashion.
Cracks above the "head" or base of the case is caused from excess headspace.
Two different problems that are unrelated.
When cases become hard, neck tension does increase and that does raise pressure slightly. However, the increase in pressure is variable, case to the next, because the necks are not all the same hardness. This does cause groups to open up and a shift in point of impact. Think of it as being crimped in a random fashion.
Wish I had known about shifts of impact and the like before I bought my Ken Light annealing machine. Every 4th firing I anneal my brass. I have about 500 pieces of 6mmBR Lapua brass that has been fired 10 times. I have never noticed a change of impact great enough to bother changing the zero.
On the flip side, I have been working up loads for a pair of new .204 Ruger barrels. I loaded a bunch of brass that has been fired 9 times and compared the groups to once fired brass. Big difference in the consistency of the groups. I have been tossing .204 brass after 10 loads and I have discarded at least 500 pieces. A couple of months ago I bought the annealing wheel for .204 Ruger and I'll be annealing every 4th firing when I start into my stash of new brass.
On the flip side, I have been working up loads for a pair of new .204 Ruger barrels. I loaded a bunch of brass that has been fired 9 times and compared the groups to once fired brass. Big difference in the consistency of the groups. I have been tossing .204 brass after 10 loads and I have discarded at least 500 pieces. A couple of months ago I bought the annealing wheel for .204 Ruger and I'll be annealing every 4th firing when I start into my stash of new brass.
Smokeless
New member
IME, the POI change is more noticeable at longer range. Could be as much as a MOA. More of a group opening than a direct shift in POI as in changing the load completely or changing ammo all together.
Two things that are effected are, bullet tension and bullet run out. With cases that aren't annealed, but need to be, the tension is not consistent. Neither is the release of the bullet consistent. Also the bullets are usually not seated very straight. These conditions cause groups to open up to one degree or another. At 100yd it may not be an issue but at 400yds is very noticeable. If banging steel it might not be a huge deal until 5 or 600yds but if you are shooting groups it can be a big deal all the way through the ranges. Many long range bench shooters anneal after every firing just to eliminate the problem all together.
It helps to run quality brass like Lapua. I do in everything I can, but it will still need to be annealed at some point. It all comes down to how precise your shooting demands are. Check your run out before and after annealing. You will see a difference.
Two things that are effected are, bullet tension and bullet run out. With cases that aren't annealed, but need to be, the tension is not consistent. Neither is the release of the bullet consistent. Also the bullets are usually not seated very straight. These conditions cause groups to open up to one degree or another. At 100yd it may not be an issue but at 400yds is very noticeable. If banging steel it might not be a huge deal until 5 or 600yds but if you are shooting groups it can be a big deal all the way through the ranges. Many long range bench shooters anneal after every firing just to eliminate the problem all together.
It helps to run quality brass like Lapua. I do in everything I can, but it will still need to be annealed at some point. It all comes down to how precise your shooting demands are. Check your run out before and after annealing. You will see a difference.
Carolina Coyote
New member
Smokeless, Thanks for your input on this topic and I have a question about the cracking around the base head, I use a RCBS Micrometer Gauge to measure the bump back on the shoulder and cycle the case through the rifle to assure the shoulder is bumped back enough for proper cycle and then lock the ring on the die so all case are the same, do you have any suggestions for improvement to check for Headspace. No max loads are use,1/2 to 1 grain below max.
I am in the process of building a annealing machine so I can do a more consistence annealing, The WSSM brass is thicker and the configuration of it I am thinking I need to anneal after every firing.Thanks again for your input.
I am in the process of building a annealing machine so I can do a more consistence annealing, The WSSM brass is thicker and the configuration of it I am thinking I need to anneal after every firing.Thanks again for your input.
Last edited:
Smokeless
New member
Originally Posted By: Carolina CoyoteSmokeless, Thanks for your input on this topic and I have a question about the cracking around the base head, I use a RCBS Micrometer Gauge to measure the bump back on the shoulder and cycle the case through the rifle to assure the shoulder is bumped back enough for proper cycle and then lock the ring on the die so all case are the same, do you have any suggestions for improvement to check for Headspace. No max loads are use,1/2 to 1 grain below max.
I am in the process of building a annealing machine so I can do a more consistence annealing, The WSSM brass is thicker and the configuration of it I am thinking I need to anneal after every firing.Thanks again for your input.
Just to clarify, we are talking about incipient case head separation or the eventual case head separating caused by excess headspace.
Case length gauges are of little use unless you first know what the actual headspace is in your rifle. The most accurate way to do this is with a Forster Go gauge for your chamber. The firing pin must be removed and the ejector [if spring loaded] removed. You then add a piece of scotch tape to the bottom of the gauge close the bolt and let the handle close from gravity. Repeat the scotch tape layers until the bolt handle will not close with gravity alone [turn down completely]. multiply the number of layers of tape by .002 and add that to the gauge length. This is your headspace measurement. Your micrometer gauge can now be used based off of that headspace gauge to check fired brass and to set your dies. This is the most correct way to determine actual headspace for your rifle.
If you don't want to buy a headspace gauge and do as described above, you can use a case that has been neck sized only [not in a FL die] and fired about 5 or so times in your rifle. This will get you fairly close to headspace but can be off as much as .003
I stopped fooling with gauges all together for this measurement and just use the fired cases. I use neck sizing dies not FL dies. I do have a few Forster bushing bump dies that allow you to bump the shoulder back when needed. The Forster dies do not squeeze the sides of the brass down like FL dies do. For the most part in my bolt guns I never need to bump the shoulder. Remember that every time you touch the shoulder in a die, you create positive headspace and that shortens brass life to one degree or another. Neck size only without max loads will most likely never require shoulder bump. A slight amount of resistance when turning the bolt down is a sign of negative headspace and that is a good thing. Nothing wrong with a little resistance closing the bolt.
Here is what I do when setting up my die to bump the shoulder, which I do occasionally with brass fired in a different chamber, I adjust the die to the point that the full length of the neck is sized. I chamber the round in my rifle. If there is too much resistance turning the bolt down, I turn my die down in small amounts, like 1\8 of a turn, sizing and chambering until the bolt turns down easy at first then meets resistance. At that point I adjust the die in very small amounts, like 1\64 turn and repeat the steps until the bolt just closes on turn down easy. At that point we hopefully have a minimum of positive headspace .001-.002 Lock the die down and size. Another easier way to do this is to buy a set of competition shell holders from Redding. They are stepped in .002 increments. Again once the brass fit my chamber, I neck size only with a neck sizing die either bushing or standard style. Doing this along with proper annealing, will yield 30-40 firings on each case sometimes more.
Hope this helps.
I am in the process of building a annealing machine so I can do a more consistence annealing, The WSSM brass is thicker and the configuration of it I am thinking I need to anneal after every firing.Thanks again for your input.
Just to clarify, we are talking about incipient case head separation or the eventual case head separating caused by excess headspace.
Case length gauges are of little use unless you first know what the actual headspace is in your rifle. The most accurate way to do this is with a Forster Go gauge for your chamber. The firing pin must be removed and the ejector [if spring loaded] removed. You then add a piece of scotch tape to the bottom of the gauge close the bolt and let the handle close from gravity. Repeat the scotch tape layers until the bolt handle will not close with gravity alone [turn down completely]. multiply the number of layers of tape by .002 and add that to the gauge length. This is your headspace measurement. Your micrometer gauge can now be used based off of that headspace gauge to check fired brass and to set your dies. This is the most correct way to determine actual headspace for your rifle.
If you don't want to buy a headspace gauge and do as described above, you can use a case that has been neck sized only [not in a FL die] and fired about 5 or so times in your rifle. This will get you fairly close to headspace but can be off as much as .003
I stopped fooling with gauges all together for this measurement and just use the fired cases. I use neck sizing dies not FL dies. I do have a few Forster bushing bump dies that allow you to bump the shoulder back when needed. The Forster dies do not squeeze the sides of the brass down like FL dies do. For the most part in my bolt guns I never need to bump the shoulder. Remember that every time you touch the shoulder in a die, you create positive headspace and that shortens brass life to one degree or another. Neck size only without max loads will most likely never require shoulder bump. A slight amount of resistance when turning the bolt down is a sign of negative headspace and that is a good thing. Nothing wrong with a little resistance closing the bolt.
Here is what I do when setting up my die to bump the shoulder, which I do occasionally with brass fired in a different chamber, I adjust the die to the point that the full length of the neck is sized. I chamber the round in my rifle. If there is too much resistance turning the bolt down, I turn my die down in small amounts, like 1\8 of a turn, sizing and chambering until the bolt turns down easy at first then meets resistance. At that point I adjust the die in very small amounts, like 1\64 turn and repeat the steps until the bolt just closes on turn down easy. At that point we hopefully have a minimum of positive headspace .001-.002 Lock the die down and size. Another easier way to do this is to buy a set of competition shell holders from Redding. They are stepped in .002 increments. Again once the brass fit my chamber, I neck size only with a neck sizing die either bushing or standard style. Doing this along with proper annealing, will yield 30-40 firings on each case sometimes more.
Hope this helps.
Carolina Coyote
New member
Yes we are talking Case head separation as in the picture you posted. Redding Dies is what I have for the 243 Wssm, actually I have Full length, Shoulder Bump, and Neck size. The method you are using makes a lot of sense to me and I will try that ,the only question I have is not using full length dies, or is that something that only needs to be done occasionally. Thanks again for your help.
Smokeless
New member
Keep in mind that Full Length (FL) dies are designed to keep your brass within SAAMI specifications. Those specifications are sloppy enough to allow function in every rifle with every reamer used to cut those chambers and every brass/ammo manufacturer. That is a very broad spectrum to fill.
When getting serious about 1 rifle, you need something other than a "one size fits all" aproach. Cut the FL dies from your diet with bolt guns and your brass and your accuracy will thank you.
When getting serious about 1 rifle, you need something other than a "one size fits all" aproach. Cut the FL dies from your diet with bolt guns and your brass and your accuracy will thank you.
I separate all brass by times fired. That way I am never shooting brass that was freshly annealed along side brass that has been shot several times since the last time I annealed. I also use what is arguably the best "consumer" annealing machine sold today.
As far as neck sizing, etc., I used to dedicate brass to one rifle, neck/bushing resize, etc. Now I just buy Lapua Brass, make sure the primer pockets are good inside and out, then full length resize every time. I also shoot rifles with min. spec chambers and no turn necks. Maybe not ultra precision, but I don't have problems getting rifle/load combos that shoot in the .2s and .3s and I am talking sporters and heavy sporters, not bench rest guns. YMMV.
As far as neck sizing, etc., I used to dedicate brass to one rifle, neck/bushing resize, etc. Now I just buy Lapua Brass, make sure the primer pockets are good inside and out, then full length resize every time. I also shoot rifles with min. spec chambers and no turn necks. Maybe not ultra precision, but I don't have problems getting rifle/load combos that shoot in the .2s and .3s and I am talking sporters and heavy sporters, not bench rest guns. YMMV.
Originally Posted By: AnkenyI separate all brass by times fired. That way I am never shooting brass that was freshly annealed along side brass that has been shot several times since the last time I annealed. I also use what is arguably the best "consumer" annealing machine sold today.
As far as neck sizing, etc., I used to dedicate brass to one rifle, neck/bushing resize, etc. Now I just buy Lapua Brass, make sure the primer pockets are good inside and out, then full length resize every time. I also shoot rifles with min. spec chambers and no turn necks. Maybe not ultra precision, but I don't have problems getting rifle/load combos that shoot in the .2s and .3s and I am talking sporters and heavy sporters, not bench rest guns. YMMV.
Good info there.
As far as neck sizing, etc., I used to dedicate brass to one rifle, neck/bushing resize, etc. Now I just buy Lapua Brass, make sure the primer pockets are good inside and out, then full length resize every time. I also shoot rifles with min. spec chambers and no turn necks. Maybe not ultra precision, but I don't have problems getting rifle/load combos that shoot in the .2s and .3s and I am talking sporters and heavy sporters, not bench rest guns. YMMV.
Good info there.