Does the (.218) Bee really sting?
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Bayou City Boy
New member
Originally Posted By: marcoIf you dont reload It will sting your wallet! I saw a box the other day for 70bucks!!
That's why about 12 years ago I bought 1600 rounds of 218 Bee brass for ~$9 per hundred...
900 of it is still unused but I will probably fire form ~200 more for the MBee before the PD season is over... That will give me 400 MBee cases for the Cooper.
The regular Bee originally came with 200 rounds of brass on top of the 1600 I bought... I'm still using the original 200 + some of the newer...
That all makes for cheap shooting even today...
-BCB
That's why about 12 years ago I bought 1600 rounds of 218 Bee brass for ~$9 per hundred...
900 of it is still unused but I will probably fire form ~200 more for the MBee before the PD season is over... That will give me 400 MBee cases for the Cooper.
The regular Bee originally came with 200 rounds of brass on top of the 1600 I bought... I'm still using the original 200 + some of the newer...
That all makes for cheap shooting even today...
-BCB
CacheCreek
New member
Originally Posted By: marcoIf you dont reload It will sting your wallet! I saw a box the other day for 70bucks!!
I shoot a .25-20 WCF, which is basically a .218 Bee necked up to a 25 caliber and yes, $70 factory loads are getting to be the norm. Reloading is the only way to go with this cartridge.....costs are just pennies on the dollar.
Every couple of years gun manufacturers come up with a new rifle cartridge. But to me, all they are trying to do is reinvent the wheel. There seems to be cartridges already availible to fill about every niche, and the .218 Bee is a perfect example.
I shoot a .25-20 WCF, which is basically a .218 Bee necked up to a 25 caliber and yes, $70 factory loads are getting to be the norm. Reloading is the only way to go with this cartridge.....costs are just pennies on the dollar.
Every couple of years gun manufacturers come up with a new rifle cartridge. But to me, all they are trying to do is reinvent the wheel. There seems to be cartridges already availible to fill about every niche, and the .218 Bee is a perfect example.
Bayou City Boy
New member
Originally Posted By: Rifleman2Mr Bayou City Boy-- The reference was to the power of the two not whether one was better than the other. I owned and experienced the 218 Bee many years ago, probably 20 Years before you were born. A nice little cartridge. Bang-Flop
Mr Rifleman2--
How young do you think I am..??
And keep in mind that the 218 Bee was introduced in 1938...
-BCB
Mr Rifleman2--
How young do you think I am..??
And keep in mind that the 218 Bee was introduced in 1938...
-BCB
Bayou City Boy
New member
Originally Posted By: Rifleman2That was two years before I was born. I owned and shot one about 1957 on fox and any thing else I could find to shoot on the farm. It did a great job on all the redtail hawks that were after our chickens. Was this twenty years before you??
Not even close, friend...
Don't let the "Boy" term cause you to jump to erroneous conclusions...
-BCB
Not even close, friend...
Don't let the "Boy" term cause you to jump to erroneous conclusions...
-BCB
Built one in the early 60's on a british martini action, it's sitting in the safe. Quit shooting it many years ago because of the price of factory ammo. You guys have got me thinking I might buy a set of dies and start using it again.
Anyone know where I can pickup some brass?
Anyone know where I can pickup some brass?
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
jlindholm70
New member
Mike Pearson
New member
Originally Posted By: CacheCreek
marco said:
Mike Pearson
New member
Originally Posted By: Bayou City BoyOriginally Posted By: Rifleman2That was two years before I was born. I owned and shot one about 1957 on fox and any thing else I could find to shoot on the farm. It did a great job on all the redtail hawks that were after our chickens. Was this twenty years before you??
Not even close, friend...
Don't let the "Boy" term cause you to jump to erroneous conclusions...
-BCB
BCB, you're definitely no kid! I'd say early to middle 60's.
I have a question for you though. I realize that many love the Hornet/Bee for different reasons but what about the .221 Fireball in comparison? Aside from the higher muzzle velocity, are there any other benefits to the Fireball when compared to these two. For that matter, are there any areas where the Fireball comes out on the short end of the stick in such a comparison.
Thanks in advance! --- Mike
Not even close, friend...
Don't let the "Boy" term cause you to jump to erroneous conclusions...
-BCB
BCB, you're definitely no kid! I'd say early to middle 60's.
I have a question for you though. I realize that many love the Hornet/Bee for different reasons but what about the .221 Fireball in comparison? Aside from the higher muzzle velocity, are there any other benefits to the Fireball when compared to these two. For that matter, are there any areas where the Fireball comes out on the short end of the stick in such a comparison.
Thanks in advance! --- Mike
Bayou City Boy
New member
Mike:
You're pretty close on the age thing.... Real close..
This is just how I see it; to me the 218 Bee and the 22 Hornet are extremely close in velocity, noise, barrel heat, etc., etc. But one cartridge (218 Bee) has advantages such as a larger, stronger rim and overall stronger brass than the other for reloading purposes... For some that may mean nothing... To others it might be important for various reasons...
The 221FB has a little bit more "umph", but with it comes more noise, more heat, etc. as to be expected. but it is still a very mild 22 CF cartridge.
In essence, one will do what the others will also do concerning the three cartridges mentioned with relatively minor differences. I've never let minor differences stand in my way of choosing a rifle and cartridge. As a result, I also have a 218 Mashburn Bee which adds a little bit to the Bee cartridge, but it still does not reach the maximum potential of the FB cartridge with certain powders. Small differences, but still differences....
For example, if the three were my only choices in cartridges and coyote hunting was on the menu, I would take a FB for a little bit of added insurance... In reality, I would probably take none of them, and instead I would likely take a larger cased 17 or a 20 caliber rifle before the FB. But that's just me... YMMV...
To my way of thinking; so what if their differences are relatively minor..? Buy one of each and play...
The real differences are all relative to what you want most...
Since it was mentioned, the 218 Bee is just a necked down 25-20 which someone mentioned earlier... The 25-20 came first... And it is a necked down 32-20 which is even older...
-BCB
You're pretty close on the age thing.... Real close..
This is just how I see it; to me the 218 Bee and the 22 Hornet are extremely close in velocity, noise, barrel heat, etc., etc. But one cartridge (218 Bee) has advantages such as a larger, stronger rim and overall stronger brass than the other for reloading purposes... For some that may mean nothing... To others it might be important for various reasons...
The 221FB has a little bit more "umph", but with it comes more noise, more heat, etc. as to be expected. but it is still a very mild 22 CF cartridge.
In essence, one will do what the others will also do concerning the three cartridges mentioned with relatively minor differences. I've never let minor differences stand in my way of choosing a rifle and cartridge. As a result, I also have a 218 Mashburn Bee which adds a little bit to the Bee cartridge, but it still does not reach the maximum potential of the FB cartridge with certain powders. Small differences, but still differences....
For example, if the three were my only choices in cartridges and coyote hunting was on the menu, I would take a FB for a little bit of added insurance... In reality, I would probably take none of them, and instead I would likely take a larger cased 17 or a 20 caliber rifle before the FB. But that's just me... YMMV...
To my way of thinking; so what if their differences are relatively minor..? Buy one of each and play...
Since it was mentioned, the 218 Bee is just a necked down 25-20 which someone mentioned earlier... The 25-20 came first... And it is a necked down 32-20 which is even older...
-BCB
Mike Pearson
New member
Excellent post BCB! That's what I was hoping for, something informative. Thanks for delivering! Cartridges are definitely interesting. What makes or breaks a cartridge, IMO, is rarely it's performance. It's usually more a case of the comparisons between it and a more "established" cartridge. Case in point, the Hornet is one OLD cartridge that still has modern rifles chambered for it, not to mention the T/C handgun. Would the Hornet have enjoyed the same popularity if the Bee (or the .221 Fireball) had been introduced first? Just my opinion here but I seriously doubt it. Marketing and media press has a HUGE (probably the largest) influence on the popularity of most cartridges. Then, of course, you got some souls out there like yourself who appreciate and enjoy the subtle DIFFERENCES between cartridges...popularity be damned!;0)) It's definitely a more fun-filled way of doing things! That's for sure!
As far as the age thing goes, well, let's just say that your posts have a certain "I'm comfortable in own skin," inner confidence about them that most men (and women for that matter) don't seem to get until they've reached a certain time in their lives. I'd say that most of us reach this time somewhere in our middle to late fifties. I figured you to be somewhere between your mid-fifties and early seventies so I split the difference.
I'm 57 myself a few days ago and "Kid" is something I call my 29 year old son! --- Mike
As far as the age thing goes, well, let's just say that your posts have a certain "I'm comfortable in own skin," inner confidence about them that most men (and women for that matter) don't seem to get until they've reached a certain time in their lives. I'd say that most of us reach this time somewhere in our middle to late fifties. I figured you to be somewhere between your mid-fifties and early seventies so I split the difference.
I'm 57 myself a few days ago and "Kid" is something I call my 29 year old son! --- Mike
Bayou City Boy
New member
LOL..!! You're pretty good at age guessing.... I'm a still young 61...! Still young feeling on most days...
As far as cartridges and rifles go; very simply, I'm weak willed so I like them all even if one does exactly what another one does. To me they're probably both worth having if they are both of good quality. And sometimes simply a choice in rifles makes a cartridge seem worthwhile to me.
As for the "I'm comfortable in my own skin" comment, I've never been one to have very many gray opinions in life.... Generally my opinions are either black or white.
I realize some folks don't like that approach, but I've been fortunate to make a world of friends just by being honest with them if asked... Those that just wanted to be part of a group hug or something similar might not feel the same way about some things I say. I guess it comes from being in a very competitive world most of my teen years and later until I got too old to compete at some things any longer...
My wife doesn't always call it being "comfortable in my own skin", but she's put up with me for 40 years and its been a good life for both of us (at least that's what she tells me..!) as she too is very competitive in many ways... And, I'm probably still too young yet to mellow too much at this point in time... Maybe at age 70.... Maybe not....
Take care..... -BCB
As far as cartridges and rifles go; very simply, I'm weak willed so I like them all even if one does exactly what another one does. To me they're probably both worth having if they are both of good quality. And sometimes simply a choice in rifles makes a cartridge seem worthwhile to me.
As for the "I'm comfortable in my own skin" comment, I've never been one to have very many gray opinions in life.... Generally my opinions are either black or white.
I realize some folks don't like that approach, but I've been fortunate to make a world of friends just by being honest with them if asked... Those that just wanted to be part of a group hug or something similar might not feel the same way about some things I say. I guess it comes from being in a very competitive world most of my teen years and later until I got too old to compete at some things any longer...
My wife doesn't always call it being "comfortable in my own skin", but she's put up with me for 40 years and its been a good life for both of us (at least that's what she tells me..!) as she too is very competitive in many ways... And, I'm probably still too young yet to mellow too much at this point in time... Maybe at age 70.... Maybe not....
Take care..... -BCB
Mike Pearson
New member
Well, BCB, you do know you'll NEVER make it in politics, don't you?;0) It's that..er..um..honesty thing! The thing about honesty and being clear about one's values is that it has a powerful way of separating the wheat from the chaffe from our lives! Not a bad thing in my book!
You managed to keep a good wife for 40+ years?
I'd say that you're definitely doing something right! You don't fool a woman for that long, that's for sure! I have a good one too. Mind you, I wasn't as fast a learner as you obviously were. It took me three times at bat BUT...I finally got it right!;0)
What you said about some guns making certain cartridges more worthwhile is very true and also vice-versa. I'd say that's always been major selling points for wildcat cartridges. Whenever I used to read articles about varmint cartridges past and present, I never could figure out WHY a cartridge like the .219 Zipper was ever developed. Didn't make sense to this country kid as everyone KNEW that bolt-actions were the only game in town as far as accuracy was concerned (naieve and opinionated. Never dawned on me that perhaps there were those whose love for lever-actions was such that they'd tolerate a little less accuracy or that, maybe, just maybe, a lever-action might very well be a great choice for a calling rifle. Never dawned on me! My thinking now is that I LOVE to see new cartridges and rifles, etc. coming out. Because even though there will undoubtedly be a bunch of duds as a result, there's no other way to get real innovation! You go through alot of gravel to get to any gold!
I'm glad to see the smaller "sub" calibers doing as well as they have but to tell you the truth, I figured that somewhere, somehow we'd have a factory .14 cartridge by now. I might be missing something but it seems like a natural choice what with more and more "settled" communities. Definitely be a richocet-proof choice if ever there was one. And then add in American's love for velocity...well... I'd also like to see a reintroduction of the 5mm Remington Magnum rimfire. Had one back in the '70's. Loved the cartridge and the rifle was accurate but geeze Louise! I remember hunting in the desert on the outskirts of El Paso, TX and having to carry a cleaning rod (disassembled) in my back pocket. Every time I'd take a shot, I'd have to re-assemble the rod and knock out the empty!) That was the straw the broke the camel's back! I got rid of it and never looked back BUT...with today's bullets, I think the 5mm could be THE rimfire magnum cartridge. Perhaps what we need though is a small centerfire cartridge for small game that duplicates rimfire performance but is reloadable. Something like the .22 Flea (.17 and .20 could be a real possibility too) that could be reloaded from airgun subsonic velocities right up to .22 Magnum energies. That's ALOT of versatility!
Enjoyed the talk BCB! --- Mike
You managed to keep a good wife for 40+ years?
I'd say that you're definitely doing something right! You don't fool a woman for that long, that's for sure! I have a good one too. Mind you, I wasn't as fast a learner as you obviously were. It took me three times at bat BUT...I finally got it right!;0)
What you said about some guns making certain cartridges more worthwhile is very true and also vice-versa. I'd say that's always been major selling points for wildcat cartridges. Whenever I used to read articles about varmint cartridges past and present, I never could figure out WHY a cartridge like the .219 Zipper was ever developed. Didn't make sense to this country kid as everyone KNEW that bolt-actions were the only game in town as far as accuracy was concerned (naieve and opinionated
. Never dawned on me that perhaps there were those whose love for lever-actions was such that they'd tolerate a little less accuracy or that, maybe, just maybe, a lever-action might very well be a great choice for a calling rifle. Never dawned on me! My thinking now is that I LOVE to see new cartridges and rifles, etc. coming out. Because even though there will undoubtedly be a bunch of duds as a result, there's no other way to get real innovation! You go through alot of gravel to get to any gold! I'm glad to see the smaller "sub" calibers doing as well as they have but to tell you the truth, I figured that somewhere, somehow we'd have a factory .14 cartridge by now. I might be missing something but it seems like a natural choice what with more and more "settled" communities. Definitely be a richocet-proof choice if ever there was one. And then add in American's love for velocity...well... I'd also like to see a reintroduction of the 5mm Remington Magnum rimfire. Had one back in the '70's. Loved the cartridge and the rifle was accurate but geeze Louise! I remember hunting in the desert on the outskirts of El Paso, TX and having to carry a cleaning rod (disassembled) in my back pocket. Every time I'd take a shot, I'd have to re-assemble the rod and knock out the empty!
) That was the straw the broke the camel's back! I got rid of it and never looked back BUT...with today's bullets, I think the 5mm could be THE rimfire magnum cartridge. Perhaps what we need though is a small centerfire cartridge for small game that duplicates rimfire performance but is reloadable. Something like the .22 Flea (.17 and .20 could be a real possibility too) that could be reloaded from airgun subsonic velocities right up to .22 Magnum energies. That's ALOT of versatility!Enjoyed the talk BCB! --- Mike
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The BEE is an animated caliber that is so likeable, I nearly think of mine as pets. Coyotes? Perfect for them, I've taken whitetail, hogs, mule deer, coyotes, prairie dogs, wild turkey, etc. with mine. Longest shot a doe at 312 yards.
In my pistol a Tauras RAGING BEE< w/10" target barrel, I think given right conditions I can consistenly ruin a coyotes day. The 46. hollow point, still factory loaded by Winchester is a great performer on game as well as getting 1" groups from my pistol at 50yds, take that group out to about 125 for me .218 Bee rifle, model 65 Winchester, lever.
When they first came out I got a Contender in a .256 Win Mag, what a great piece, knocked down antelop at 200 with, any way, after you've hunter a while and killed a lot of game with different weapons, I always come back to a cowboy gun to have fun, open sights if possible.
Contender? I used to love them until the denied promotional use of their products for sons of KIA war heroes and purple hearts for TV shows I had contracted for Ted Nugent, Art of Deception and Double Bull. I could have handled the NO, but T/C had (Neil Summers), just months before, gave lots of guns to a show ran by inept, excons. I went to NIKON, bam got every soldier or 9-11 survivor, whatever the needed to use of such TV hunts, same wSKB cases and Elephant Castle Arms, Doug Bowlin's place in MO, he was standindg behind me when Neil turned me down and just gave us a gun..POINT: In 2011 if you don't support our troops and men and women in uniform, you don't get my business.
WRTD
FT.WORTH,TEXAS
In my pistol a Tauras RAGING BEE< w/10" target barrel, I think given right conditions I can consistenly ruin a coyotes day. The 46. hollow point, still factory loaded by Winchester is a great performer on game as well as getting 1" groups from my pistol at 50yds, take that group out to about 125 for me .218 Bee rifle, model 65 Winchester, lever.
When they first came out I got a Contender in a .256 Win Mag, what a great piece, knocked down antelop at 200 with, any way, after you've hunter a while and killed a lot of game with different weapons, I always come back to a cowboy gun to have fun, open sights if possible.
Contender? I used to love them until the denied promotional use of their products for sons of KIA war heroes and purple hearts for TV shows I had contracted for Ted Nugent, Art of Deception and Double Bull. I could have handled the NO, but T/C had (Neil Summers), just months before, gave lots of guns to a show ran by inept, excons. I went to NIKON, bam got every soldier or 9-11 survivor, whatever the needed to use of such TV hunts, same wSKB cases and Elephant Castle Arms, Doug Bowlin's place in MO, he was standindg behind me when Neil turned me down and just gave us a gun..POINT: In 2011 if you don't support our troops and men and women in uniform, you don't get my business.
WRTD
FT.WORTH,TEXAS
CatShooter
New member
BCB...
I seem to remember you and I discussing the .218 Bee some years ago.
I have a Ruger #1 (AH forend), and a minty cream puff Browning 65 lever gun.
I have found that the .218 case is the very same volume as the .221 FireBall, and because it is stronger than the hornet, with a heavy head, it will easily take 50kpsi loads... ergo, in a #1 single shot, it is equal to the .221.
I load the M-65 to ~35kpsi.
Meow.
I seem to remember you and I discussing the .218 Bee some years ago.
I have a Ruger #1 (AH forend), and a minty cream puff Browning 65 lever gun.
I have found that the .218 case is the very same volume as the .221 FireBall, and because it is stronger than the hornet, with a heavy head, it will easily take 50kpsi loads... ergo, in a #1 single shot, it is equal to the .221.
I load the M-65 to ~35kpsi.
Meow.
deathwind II
New member
Originally Posted By: AWSI've tried Lil-Gun in my Bee (1894 Marlin) and using the same bullet I use in the Hornet I have to use .5 gr LESS in the Bee than the Hornet.
AWS
How accurate is that Marlin? I saw one guy claiming dime-sized groups with his. Sure wish they'd make another run of those 1894 Bees; not sure I'd pay the price some are asking for (rare) used ones. A decent-shooting lever action in a varmint round would probably be my last rifle ever...yeah, right.
AWS
How accurate is that Marlin? I saw one guy claiming dime-sized groups with his. Sure wish they'd make another run of those 1894 Bees; not sure I'd pay the price some are asking for (rare) used ones. A decent-shooting lever action in a varmint round would probably be my last rifle ever...yeah, right.