Ethical responsibility (.17 hmr, et al)

B

Big Meat

New member
I hereby delete the post, apologize for getting everybody stirred up, and you have my solemn promise to never, ever ask a question like that again.

Cougarbait - guilty as charged. The way things are going, I may never get one. If I do, it won't be with MY .17 hmr...my choice. But I am going to keep trying.

For the record, the original question was "what is our ethical responsibility to provide instructive/corrective feedback, and where does that ethical responsibility stop?" (It had NOTHING to do with any specific caliber or firearm) I have sure learned my lesson on that one... Ethics be damned, I won't be exposing my opinions here any time soon. Although it doesn't sound like they will be missed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Every one has their own ideas about what's right or wrong. That is what make us who we are! But, I do prefer reasons based on experince not heresay. Stick too what you believe.....Tim... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ..By the way, I would shot that moose in the eye,then run like hell!!! Ha! Ha! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I think the problem with the HMR is it will kill a coyote as dead as anything else with little or no damage, then all of a sudden you get bad shots and of course runners that you never find, at least this was my experience and it was with a T/C contender pistol so I sold it and haven't looked back. Was it the round, or the pistol, or me? I vote for me, I did not wait for the perfect shot and lost 2 coyotes, as someones sig line says "some people just have to pee on the electric fence". Should I tell other people what to use or not to use? I don't think so, alot of people may be better at calling or shooting or picking their shots than me. All I can tell them is what experience I've had with it and let their concience or ethics decide for them. I am only responsible for me. If you ask me for my opinion I will tell you what I experienced, I won't try to force my opinion onto someone else, we have enough people here trying to police everyone else as it is.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I for one am sick of all the bickering back and forth that goes on every time the 17HMR (among other things)is mentioned. Sorry for the rambling but this horse has been beat enough and now I think I smell burning horse flesh.
 
Big Meat - I think you are hung up on the issue of caliber far too much. If a caller is an expert with alot of experience he will have no trouble killing 'yotes with a well placed shot with his weapon of choice. He will have enough experience and patience to call that dog CLOSE for a clean shot. He will be sportsman enough to PASS any shot that does not fit the restrictions of his chosen caliber.

So the question is really not "is the gun too small", its does the man callin' have the kind of knowledge nessesary to pull those dogs in tight and close the deal. Does he have the restraint not to shoot a shot out of his calibers range?

There are probably only a handfull of guys that are good enough to consistantly kill 'yotes with the .17HMR. But in the right hands of a skilled caller I have no doubt its plenty gun.
 
Do you folks know what the really funny part of all of this is? I was at my local gun shop today, as usual, and my buddy showed me the ad for the next 17 to be released, are you ready? There are as of right now 11 gun companies going to sell this gun, The 17hmr as we all know is a 22mag case necked down to the 17 caliber, well I saw this with my own eyes, due for release next Aug. the 17ss or super short. This gun is built on a 22LR case necked to the 17, it is basically 450 fps slower then the HMR using the same bullet. NOW are we going to have to go through this all over again next yr when the new 17 comes out? I sure hope not. BUT I just wanted to give you guys a heads up about this so maybe you can all start now asking is THIS one enough for yotes. LOL Have fun with it.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
In my part of the country there is more coyotes mortally wounded by deer hunters every year than the 17 HMR could wound in ten years.

I am a rancher and to me, and about 90 % of the population hear view the coyote as just a coyote. They are not eithical about killing livestock, they are vermin. They die of alot more horrific deaths out hear like mange, disiese and poison.

I just don't understand what the big fuss is with this.

How do you feel about bow hunting? Coyotes, or deer for that matter? They are going suffer just the same. If you make a kill shoot they will die from 10 seconds to 10 hours. If they are wounded you may never find them. This is the same for rifle hunting. You cuss, bitch and mone, but you are a hunter and learn from your mistakes.

If you can't cope with it, don't hunt.

Hunting wouldn't have a bad reputation with some if everybody made perfict kill shoots all the time. And as hunters we should try, but it isn't gonna happen.

People are going to use the HMR and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as it's legal.

They will learn from their own mistakes.
 
You know, I thought I would finally weigh in on this. I don't have a .17, never shot one, never even held one. But wouldn't mind having one for fun. And I don't like the idea of someone telling me what I can and cannot use for anything. That's a pretty left wing viewpoint to me. "Well I don't think it's ethical to use a .17 HMR, so no one should be able to use one." "I don't eat meat, so no one else should either." etc.

I have a buddy that shoots yotes with a .22 mag. He shoots everyone in the head at shotgun range. He knows his limitations and goes by that. No I wouldn't recomend to someone new to coyote hunting to use a .22mag or .17, but I wouldn't bash the heck out of them if they wanted to use it.

I also mentioned this on another thread but, Walter "Karamojo" Bell, a famous ivory hunter, used a .256 for elephant hunting. He was widely ridiculed in his time, yet he killed hundreds of bull elephant with that cartridge. He perfected the quartering away brain shot on elephant also. I'm not sure, but if you ran the numbers, shooting a moose with a .17 HMR would probably not be a whole lot different than shooting a bull elephant with a .256. Bullet placement, experience, and knowing your own limitations as well as the limitations of your rifle and bullet are necessary.

I also agree with what's been said before, this horse is well and truly beaten. He's just a greasy spot on the ground now.

Bake
 
LOL No WeekendWarrior1, the horse is bone meal it's been beaten soo much! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
There is another forum that I am registered with http://www.rimfirecentral.com This website is loaded with a wealth of information on the rimfire guns 22lr, 22mag, 17hmr. There have been similiar posts on this same subject. Many of the same points have been brought up here. I recall two members posting that in the particular area they were hunting they need to use a low report, quick gun for killing coyotes. Mostly due to the landowners request and because of the proximity of the cows/calves. (Didn't want to start a stampede, etc) They had taken yotes out to 150 yards as well as fox. On the kills past 100 yards, the CCI ammo went clean through a coyote. Many farmers use 22lr to stop predatation and they all work. There are people who hunt with those high powered "Air Rifles" who kill elk/deer etc. It' not a matter of the caliber it's the facts of shooting ethics from each individual hunters ability. Can I kill a deer with my 10/22, your dang right I can. But I don't and there are just as many animals wounded from larger calibers as small. As stated before the horse is beat and each person is entitled to their own opinions. I personally would use a 17hmr for coyotes. This round is one of the most accurate if not the most accurate rimfire round developed to date in mass production. Most guys are shooting sub moa groups at 100 yards and 1.5 or less at 200 (depending on wind etc)
 
0070.gif

0054.gif

horse.gif


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif LOL....
 
Well everybody must get a kick outta beating that poor horse but I think Big Meats question was about ethics and responsibility.
So here goes; You can lead a horse to the waters of ethics, but can you make him drink it responsibly? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
In other words- Make suggestions and give advice, the only ones that are gonna really listen are those that really want to learn.
I guess that's about my two centavos worth. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I have on a couple of occasions made and analogy of Bells accomplishments in relation to the .17 for coyotes except it was for Remington’s version. First thing is first though. Bell did not use the .256 to kill “hundreds” of elephant. Bell used the .400 Nitro Jeffery, 416 Rigby, .318 Westley Richards and the 6.5x57 as well as the .256 and others. In his writings it appears that the .318 was what he favored. His primary weapons were the .318 and the .275 for the record. If the truth were known F.G. Banks “Deaf” Banks almost certainly killed more elephant with the.256 Mannlicher than Bell did. It was said that he killed three elephant with one shot from that little rifle. He was doing control work and shot an elephant on the side of a steep valley. The elephant fell at the shot and rolled into another which was knocked over as well. As the two elephant tumbled down the embankment they crashed into a third one and all three were found stone dead in the bottom of the valley. Beat that!! LOL

Anyway the fact that the 17 hmr can kill a coyote is a meaningless argument. I think anything short of a cb cap could do the job. The whole point is why? Some areas by law may only allow shotguns or rimfires but for the rest of the world WHY?

Lets step back for just a moment. Bell is known far and wide for his prows as a first class elephant hunter but it is not because he had shot so many elephants. Many hunters have killed far more than he had. Karamojo’s total was estimated to be 1,011 with 983 of them being bulls. Banks for one killed around 3000 and Captain Roy John Dugdale Salmon known best as “Samaki Salmon” killed over 4000 in just 19 years doing control work. Bells fame rests mainly on his writings and most importantly the controversy over his choice in calibers. His books never mention how many got away wounded?

It was his outstanding book “Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter” and his choice in calibers that made him a stand out. What makes this analogy so interesting is that Bell and some other not so famus hunters used the same arguments that are used today nearly 100 years ago. Some are nearly verbatim. It is also interesting to look at what the majority of the professional elephant hunters used at the time as well as what the professional fur hunters and adc men use for coyotes.

Tony Sanchez-Arino has done in-depth studies on elephants and elephant hunters. In his great book “Elephants, Ivory and hunters” he selected a pool of 60 of the most accomplished elephant hunters from 1900 to 1950 to determine what the most popular elephant cartridge was. The .577 was the top dog with 9 votes and only one went to the .318 and I presume it was Bell. It should also be pointed out that of the 60 hunters only one shot a caliber larger that the .577 and only three used a caliber less than .375 H&H.

I don’t know what the most popular coyote round is but I would guess it to be the 22-250 Remington or larger for the ADC men and would guess the .223 to be the choice for most recreational callers. “Just a guess.”

What does all this boil down to? Nothing really. People will shoot what they want to as long as it is legal for coyotes. Fortunately for the elephant I think the smallest round permitted by law anymore is a .375 H&H. They enact these restrictions because too many people don’t know what using enough gun means.

I have been involved in these kinds of debates before and have set by idly and watched many but what always strikes me as odd is that there is always a lot of mention about people being “amazed” at what these little rounds can do. I would think if a round amazed you then you apparently had your doubts about it. When I shoot a coyote with my swift and dies I am sure as hell not amazed. LOL

Aside from all of the amazement surrounding this round I see a ton of clichés that you can bet your soul on seeing when ever hmr and coyotes are mentioned in the same post. Some include…

Well you just need to know your rifles limitations.
Shot placement is key.
If you can call them close enough they will kill like the hammer of Thor.
If you know what you are doing they are the perfect calling rifle.
The caliber should not matter if you are PROFICIENT with your weapon of choice.
It matters little what you shot an animal with, and if you hit him right it doesn’t matter.
It's not what you shoot.....it's what you shot and how you shot it that counts.
Dead is dead.
It boils down to the skill of the shooter.

These are just a few that all seam to point out the importance of shot placement. I am confused because I have always thought that shot placement was important no matter what you shoot. By repeating how important shot placement is over and over and over and over and over and……. Well it means one of two things. Either the hmr shooters think that by shooting coyotes with larger rounds you don’t need to worry about shot placement or they are just trying to point out that they are such good callers and shooters that they don’t need to use the big boomers. Or maybe it is just how good they are?

From the outside looking in it seams like what people are really trying to accomplish with the hmr (other than staying with in legal limits) is to point out how “good” they are or they are out to prove something. In my mind all you are proving is that you know how to successfully limit your shooting range and shot opportunities. Any 13-year-old kid can learn to hit a 6-inch kill zone at 50 yards. It is not that special.

If you are in it for the challenge and have the mindset and the discipline to use the hmr for coyotes then fine, more power to you. I don’t have any desire to restrict my self when coyote hunting so the thought of handicapping my self with a rimfire doesn’t interest me.

I guess it all revolves around what your goals are. Mine is to kill every coyote I possibly can at any distance I can put a bullet into them at because I am primarily a fur hunter. Sport hunters may enjoy the challenges of the hmr “so be it!” It’s not for me and never will be. I don’t sport hunt coyotes, I don’t have the need or desire to prove anything to myself or anyone else about my calling or shooting ability and I am not looking for anymore of a challenge in coyote hunting then I already get.

This issue like ethics is self-destructive. As long as it is legal to do something to coyotes or any animal people will openly do it and justify their actions based only on the fact that there is not a law against it. Society seams institutionalized in the thought that as long as it is legal it must be the right thing to do. Only until it is outlawed can someone “publicly” say something is unethical with out being ridiculed. With out laws ethics is a personal choice and they will vary widely. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Good hunting.

Q,
 
Thanks Q. My knowledge of Bell is restricted to what Capstick wrote about him. I was under the impression that the .256 was one of his main rifles. I didn't mean to mislead. I knew Bell didn't have huge numbers, fact is, I thought they were fairly close to what you said.

I was just trying to make a fair analogy. And that analogy being that shot placement is key with ANY weapon. I agree with your statement that shot placement seems to come up more in conversations of small calibers than it does in large calibers. And I agree that shot placement is key for any caliber when you have a clean kill in mind. I just don't like being dictated to even if it doesn't apply to me.

I hope i've made myself a little more clear, and I bow to your experience /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif (I'm not being sarcastic). I'm also glad you weighed in on this. I've seen your posts in the photo gallery, and all I've got to say is, you're a better caller than I can ever hope to be.

Good hunting to you too

Bake
 
Well, Im sure yall are really wanting me too weigh in, given my start on this board, not many will read my post I imagine. But here it goes.

I have found it is best, if something is this controversial, especially if its not inherently a viable weapon of choice, unless in the hands of a competent shooter that is constrained enough to hold off on shots that are not optimal, to say its not a good weapon of choice. Thats the case with the hummer and seems to draw fire my way every time I mention it. I was writing almost tongue in cheek sometimes, but because I didnt use the warm fuzzy icons, everyone took it I was spoiling for a fight.

I maintain that the hummer is not a good coyote rifle. Probably ok for foxes. ChileRojo is one of the best hunters and shots that I know of. I would say if it is good in anyones hands, it would be his. He says he is losing 5 percent of the coyotes shot. Ok, lets say thats acceptable. He also says a head shot is the worst percentage shot there is and he doesnt take them, shoot the boiler room. The head is the size of a hen egg, kill zone at least, and is subject to move at anytime. I dont care how good yall are, thats tough and not high percentage.

Now, given that info, Chile is shooting close shots at the boiler room and losing 5%. Thats acceptable, I reckon. Now several guys talkin on here about head shots only, low percentage, and "my girlfriends brothers girlfriends cousins uncle shot one at 150 yards and killed it graveyard dead" or something along those lines. One guy shot a cat in the eye and had to finish it off. One guy killed his first coyote ever and shot it in the chest and it went 75 yards and hes touting it as the best coyote gun around. Although hes carrying a 243 some and going to take the head shots with the hummer. What??

Anyone catching my drift? Yes it will kill coyotes at reasonable range, good or perfect angles, hit in the boiler room. But screw that up and hit a shoulder bone, rib bone or miss the hen egg and hit the jaw or skullcap and you got a crippled coyote. Period. Im sure there are some exceptions, but some folks fall 12 stories off buildings and live too.

Point is that its not an inherently good coyote rifle, unless you are very restrained and capable. If Chile is losing 5% taking only the best shots at the boiler room, I would "guess" theres going to be alot of guys I have been reading about losing 20-50% taking the head shots and face it, alot of people cant wait for a good shot. The coyote came to the call and Im shootin mentality.

Well theres my opinion again, FWIW, like I said, the way it was recepted last time, probably wont be read and damn sure argued with. But I think if yall think about it, you will see some truth too.

Cant wait for that 22lr,necked to 17 thats coming out. I need a new elk gun. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

peon
 
For what it's worth, my theory on shot placement, if you shoot a 30-06 you can hit him in the butt as long as the bullet travels to the kill area and it will it is a good shot, if you use a 17HMR you have the same kill area but you will have to slip the bullet between a rib to get in there. Shot placement is the key with any caliber and any animal. I personally need and want any help I can get so I shoot a .223 and yes, the goverment trapper around here thinks the .223 is too small for coyotes but it works for me.
 
It is our ethical responsibility to give advice
to those that ask for it. Someone asks for advice
I give them the best advice I can from my own
knowledge and experience. I own a .17hmr and it
is a very accurate gun at 100 yards. However I
don't know if I will use it for coyotes but I
probably will not. Shot placement is key with any
gun! I'm glad i'm not the only one to point that
out. Knowing you and your guns limitaions is also
important. I think I can hit a coyote in the chest within 100 yards with my .17hmr. However
why bring a gun that might not kill him quickly.
I have a .243 and a 12 gauge and they both work
well for killing coyotes quickly. So when I am
hunting small game the.17 will be a good choice
but it is not gonna be my coyote gun. That is my
choice and ethical responsibility to the coyotes
that I hunt.
 
Big meat,

I posted this question in the manner that I did because I was tired of the REAL QUESTION not getting answered. I have read all the post about wether or not the HMR was enough gun, that was not my question. I wanted to know about shot placement. If some one wanted to answer the question and then say "I don't recomend the round", that would be fine. But, I was not looking to debate how ethical it was to use the HMR, I wanted to know about shot placement.
 
Since this post asks about our responsibility to promote ones ethics I thought I'd just ask a few questions myself.

Big Meat, you included in your post:

quote:
"I have a hummer and love it, but I have stated my position that it is not sufficient for coyotes in every situation/condition (maybe ok in some, but certianly not all)."

My question is what firearm IS sufficient in every situation/condition, as I would sure like to have that baby in my hands. As with ANY firearm, not one is perfect every time/every condition.

quote:
"I have shared my opinion with others. It is further my belief that I/we have an obligation to dissuade others from going down that path to the detriment of our sport and those who wish to enjoy it into the future."

quote:
"I guess I am becoming impatient with those who elect to ignore the advice of those who are conscientious enough to respond with honest answers based on hard earned experience, yet still seek advice on how to accomplish those same ill-conceived goals."

I will respond to these with some of your own posts directed towards Cougerbait. It sure doesn't seem like there was any advice offered here based on hard earned experience.

quote:
"In the attached picture, you can see the Cougar I took last week with a 12mm ball bearing and wrist rocket at 7 paces. One shot."

"Hey, if you are into coyotes with the .17hmr, it sounds like you are ready to step up to the big leagues. Get yourself a wrist rocket, some ball bearings, sneak up on something with a poor temper and big teeth and give it a whack. You should have no problem achieving the same result you did with the .17. And, Hey, if you don't, well, it's no big deal, is it?"


quote:
"If we had a person ask an honest question, a la C-N-P's post, excerpt above, about shot placement and range for a .17 hmr on a moose, for example, would we not be animated and aggressive in our disuasive feedback lest he become that stringy stuff hanging from the moose's antlers?"

I would agree with this example, especially if coyotes weighed 1000 lbs. just for the safety issues alone.

quote:
"Where does our responsibility start and stop? I remain uncomfortable doing what in my mind amounts to giving aide and comfort to the enemy, those who would seek by their selfish actions to put that which we love at risk. I am very likely among a minority group here, and that is why I invite your feedback."

I'm not really sure you can force YOUR or anyone elses ethics or perception of said ethics on anyone. It is the responsibility of the individual themselves to develop that based on personal experience and the GOOD input from others. Most people tend to "shut the door" on ANY advice when it is offered in the form of personal attack, as has been the case when the .17HMR has been discussed here.

Just by being a member of this site or any other hunting, fishing, or animal use group puts you and I in the category of a subhuman to the anti crowd. Any talk of killing (AKA harvesting) or even using any animal parts for anything at all, food, etc. puts us all at risk, as you would say. The only way to appease the anti crowd is become a vegan, at least until someone points out said studies that show plants grow better when exposed to certain kinds of music, and then we're all screwed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Just my thoughts.

Cro-mag
 
Back
Top