Explosive Groundhog Calibers.

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"... Anyone know how fast a guy could push a 110 or 125 bullet in a 300 wsm?



There is a guy in Virginia named Richard Franklin that builds the 300 WSM varmint rifles.

He uses a 29"-30" slow twist barrel (15") and gets ~3900fps (so he says). But 3900 fps requires you loading to ~65,000 psi - doable, but real short case life.

They are LOUD and many farmers will run you off the place - with ~70gr of powder, they are expensive cuz barrel life ain't what you want it to be.

But if you really want a 20 pound chuck to get launched, this will do it. They are expensive, and take a year or so to get.

I would personally get a 300 Win Mag - more power and velocity at lower pressure, and you can get a heavy barreled 300 Win Mag on short order, and if you don't like it, you can sell it or do something else with it - With Richard's rifles, if you don't like it, you eat it, cuz very few people are interested in a odd-ball rifle like that.

The other problem with rifles like that is if the farmer wants the chucks removed from the field, you need a shovel and plastic bag, cuz they are a real gross mess.

I'd rather whack them with a .220 swift and watch them drop on the spot and wag their little tails at me...


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I dont feel the 243 will have the "lift off" power.




My 243 with 75 grain vmax's going 3550 will toss ground hogs all day long...in PA no less! Are they bigger in your part of the state? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
What programs do you guys use to test your theorys or ideas with? I'd like to put something together and run it thru a pc program to see how it looks.
 
I have Mr. Franklin's Hog huntin' DVD and recommend you purchase it before taking the plunge for one of those rifles. CAT is right (but you already knew that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) their rifles are VERY specialized to a particular shooting style, that being off a table with a fixed position rest. No bipods, sand bags, or offhand shooting going on...

Those guys shoot 25 lb+ bench guns, some with shiny chrome barrels and fire engine red stocks. Not knockin' them, they pull off some wicked shots with their equipment. I guess a little glare off the barrel don't mean much at 800yds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If that is what you are lookin' for, then get the video and learn up!
 
I got both the 2006 and 2008 videos I enjoyed them, but see your point with them shooting them off a bench. A heavy rifle isn't that much a concern for me cause shooting offhand is not something I do or should I say I can do. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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I got both the 2006 and 2008 videos I enjoyed them, but see your point with them shooting them off a bench. A heavy rifle isn't that much a concern for me cause shooting offhand is not something I do or should I say I can do. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif



Knock'em has a point.

I don't think he was at all inferring that the rifle should be shot off hand, but with a 25 pound rifle, you need a heavy table (Richard has a trailer with a permanently set up shooting bench mounted in it)... but there are a lotta places you can't drive right up to the shooting position - even if you can drive near and have to carry your kit 30 yds to a shooting position, that means a bipod or bags... and then the 300 WSM puts you out of business.

With the light bullets, these 300 WSM's have a lot of "lift" ( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ) at close to mid range (400 to 600-ish yds), but the light bullets are spending their energy pretty dammn fast. At a thousand, there's little left.

Also, what Richard does not mention is that these light bullets have a lot of wind drift.

I have a .264 Win Mag varmint rifle, and with 95gr V-Maxs, will shoot flatter, drift less, and lift a chuck higher than his 300 WSM at 700yds, and the 264 will still be flying fast at 1,000 yds. And if I ever get bored with it, there will be a line of guys standing at the door with cash in hand for it.

It's easy to look flashy with numbers, but down range shooting isn't flash.

I have Richard's latest DVD - and if you walk it through frame by frame, many of his chucks were dead already when he shows them being shot. Shooting an already dead chuck don't do much for me.

If the chuck ain't moving when it's shot, or the scene starts immediately with the chuck getting hit... the shot is faked.

He claims very long range shots like 700 yds, but from the time of the sound of the shot, to the impact on the chuck, and the time taken for the "Thwock" sound to get back to the camera microphone, it shows the shot to be ~300 to 400yds, and you don't need no steeenkin' $3500 rifle for a 400yd woodchuck.

(Very badd ethics... but it sells rifles /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif ).

I just have this thing about faked shooting videos. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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I have Richard's latest DVD - and if you walk it through frame by frame, many of his chucks were dead already when he shows them being shot. Shooting an already dead chuck don't do much for me.

If the chuck ain't moving when it's shot, or the scene starts immediately with the chuck getting hit... the shot is faked.




/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Holy crap... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I have not seen any of the footage, but that would totally shock me to see something like that on any video.

Wow...

- DAA
 
YUP.
Some of the footage sure does look "fishy"...

Far as chuck hunting here goes, they are TROPHIES in my book! Big chucks are very shy and have excellent eyes & ears. To spot and whack one big hog a day is a challenge where I hunt. The young ones are pretty easy to slam come May and early June...

Bottom line is, chucks are tough to come by and the yotes LOVE to eat them. The chucks that have survived are as wary as a big whitetail buck, no joke!

Far as techniques, I like to ease (on foot) around the edges of cut fields (with a rifle I can actually carry and shoot afield), spot a chuck, flip the Harris down and setup for the shot. It is easier to kill a whitetail here than it is a woodchuck!
 
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I have Richard's latest DVD - and if you walk it through frame by frame, many of his chucks were dead already when he shows them being shot. Shooting an already dead chuck don't do much for me.

If the chuck ain't moving when it's shot, or the scene starts immediately with the chuck getting hit... the shot is faked.




/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Holy crap... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I have not seen any of the footage, but that would totally shock me to see something like that on any video.

Wow...

- DAA



I was in the "real" film business for many years, and can spot fake footage in a New York second.

I have spent a fair amount of time whackin' chucks when I lived in PA. In June, July, and August, on a sunny day, if you are looking at a chuck over a cut hay field, the mirage is like a pot of boiling water - when you look at Richards video that was taken on hot, sunny summer days - many of the "claimed" 400 to 600 yard shots have NO MIRAGE -

WHAT?

Any of you "long in the tooth" chuck shooters know exactly what I am talking about.

So I wrote something up and called him on it. He wrote me back and invited me to go shooting with him and one of his customers... and he says, - "Don't expect it to be easy, we shoot out to 600 yards, We're not hunters, we're killers"!

So I wrote him back and said if it's all the way out to 600 yards, I'll send my mommy instead!



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That's a real shame.

As far as filming chucks getting shot at 600+ yards, I've actually done a little bit of that. With our camera gear, which was "decent" for the time - a Canon GL1 with a 20x optical zoom lens (can't remember the actual length), 10 pound 'chucks at 600 yards were hard to even see on a TV screen. Even on extremely low humidity days with a nice breeze, the mirage is thick on the video. And the 'chucks look like little brown dots, just a few pixels is all they were, really. Most of the 'chucks we shot at over 600 yards I ended up just editing out of the video completely, the footage was just too indistinct and lame. Even the few that I did use, I think they were at about 650 yards, the viewer more or less has to take our word for it that we hit those chucks. Just not very compelling footage at all, I probably should have left it out too. But - that's my stuff, I have not seen any of Richard Franklin's video and don't know what kind of lenses he used. He could have something way more expensive and way better than what we used. Doesn't matter though, if the stuff is faked.

Really, that is just a darn shame.

- DAA
 
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So I wrote him back and said if it's all the way out to 600 yards, I'll send my mommy instead!





I've always enjoyed reading Cat's replies; but that HAS to be one of the best /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I'm guessing Richard retracted his invite after that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I am glad that you chimed in CATSHOOTER, I would have been one of those people who would have paid the price for his rifles then paid a the higher price of dissappointment.

I never put it together till now about the fakes as well. Looking at my video it is easy to see. And mirage is mirage no matter what the optics or camera...to a point right.
I got some video from my hog hunts I enjoy watching it thru
the winter months.

Anyone know how to post video thru photobucket I'll show you a few.
http://s145.photobucket.com/albums/r223/nriemer1980/?start=0
 
Dave, show some of your clips from the rmvh.com site. You had several launches with your 22-250 AI using V-Max's that were VERY impressive, to say the least. I had been using Berger's out of mine but I'm going to try the plastic tipped bullets just to get that affect.
 
I haven't been in chuck country since I was a teenager, a LONG LONG time ago. The only centerfire rifle I had at that time was a 7mm Rem Mag.

Not as potent as a .300 Win Mag but all it left of them was the skin and strawberry foam. There is NO such thing as overkill when it comes to ghogs. Don
 
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That's a real shame.

As far as filming chucks getting shot at 600+ yards, I've actually done a little bit of that. With our camera gear, which was "decent" for the time - a Canon GL1 with a 20x optical zoom lens (can't remember the actual length), 10 pound 'chucks at 600 yards were hard to even see on a TV screen. Even on extremely low humidity days with a nice breeze, the mirage is thick on the video. And the 'chucks look like little brown dots, just a few pixels is all they were, really. Most of the 'chucks we shot at over 600 yards I ended up just editing out of the video completely, the footage was just too indistinct and lame. Even the few that I did use, I think they were at about 650 yards, the viewer more or less has to take our word for it that we hit those chucks. Just not very compelling footage at all, I probably should have left it out too. But - that's my stuff, I have not seen any of Richard Franklin's video and don't know what kind of lenses he used. He could have something way more expensive and way better than what we used. Doesn't matter though, if the stuff is faked.

Really, that is just a darn shame.

- DAA




Dave... the GL1 is no slouch of a camera. No matter how much you spend, mirage is the same.

I used to post over on 6mmBR forums (I got kicked off for calling the owner a liar, cuz he was a lair /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif ).

There was a g'smith that posted over there that built a rig that held a spotting scope on a 1/4" aluminum plate, and a video camera behind it.

He showed a video of a rifle shot on a feral pigeon at 525 yds. The pigeon was standing on a fence post. The size of the pigeon looked like it was 15 yards away. It was a full 525 yds away.

You could surely see the mirage, but you could also see the feathers fly all over when the pigeon blew up (it was hit with a 22-250 and a V-Max).

So those long video shots can be made, but you need additional optics.

I have a retired 60mm "ED" spotting scope that I want to hook up like that. Fixed "long eye relief" eye pieces are much better than the zoom eye pieces, in case you want to try something like that.

If you PM me your snail mail address, I will send you a copy of the Richards video.

I've seen your videos, and they are pretty good (but I hate it when you are clean shaven in one scene, and have a full goatee in the next /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )... so you will see what we are talking about.

Richard Franklin shows chucks "sunning" themselves" in positions that a live chuck would never take. Many of the chuck scenes start with the chuck being hit in the first frame... and a lot of the chuck shots are repeated over and over through out the video.

There is one scene, filmed in full, midday summer sun, that is claimed to be 1,930 yds and there is no mirage, and every leaf is razor sharp. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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CS, thanks for the offer on the vid, but I already told Fred I'd borrow his /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

I had the same idea, about mounting a powerful optic in front of the camera. Even did a quick and dirty proof of concept to show myself it would work way back when. Never got around to actually building it or using it though. Good to know it can actually be made to work in the field.

Oh, and yeah, "video pros" me and Tim are NOT! I look at some of the cheesy transitions and stuff from that first video and just cringe... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

- DAA
 
Hey Dave Sorry I couldn't make it out in November for the coyote hunt I had planned. We'll make it next year...and your videos kick butt man....dont sweat the small stuff brother! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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CS, thanks for the offer on the vid, but I already told Fred I'd borrow his /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

I had the same idea, about mounting a powerful optic in front of the camera. Even did a quick and dirty proof of concept to show myself it would work way back when. Never got around to actually building it or using it though. Good to know it can actually be made to work in the field.

Oh, and yeah, "video pros" me and Tim are NOT! I look at some of the cheesy transitions and stuff from that first video and just cringe... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

- DAA



I browsed back through my e-mails, and found his stuff.

His name is Kevin.

This is the video of a shot on a pigeon at ~500 and you can easily see a fair amount of detail, in spite of the mirage...

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii242/KevinCram/?action=view&current=Doveonafencepost.flv

... and in the next one, there are some more pigeon and some woodchuck shots at 500 to 800+ and you can just about make out the eyes on the chucks - hellova lot more than a few pixles. And you can clearly see the shock waves trace the bullet's path to the target.

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii242/KevinCram/?action=view&current=G-Hog.flv

Browse his whole album - he has some nice stuff.

A nice guy too!


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very interesting! Being from down south I only hunted and killed one chuck in my life of almost 50 yrs. Fun story, I was assigned to Weapons Training BN at Quantico and was sent to New York to train a Marine Reserve unit about to deploy somewhere. My fellow Instructor lived up that way so we detoured by his house after our training mission and in route to the AP to fly out. We grabbed his Winch Coyote in 223 barreled for a heavy bullet and had a hand full of 77 grain match bullets. He was showing me his chuck hunting lands and every time we would see something it also saw us and would skirt off. It was a cold month like April up there and not a lot of chucks out, still snow in the shade. While driving his truck we spotted one a couple hundred yards away. We pulled his truck over about 100 yards down the road behind the turn and some trees. We took off running against the on-coming traffic- me in Tony Lamas and a goretex top in the misty rain with him leading our run, crouching low below the hill between us and the chuck. The car drivers must had thought- crap!!?%& when we made the spot he peeked over while I slinged in, he ranged the chuck and I held his nose and adjusted for 10-15 MPH winds and rolled his big furry hiney end over end. What a fun time. We did a quick picture. I was literraly back on a plane inside 45 mics. Back at home base they accused me of extending winter. That was one chuck that never saw his shadow. What a blast- i am jelous of you chuck hunters. JHG
 
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