coyotestalker
New member
Maybe the fastest I have seen is the 22-243 Middlested. With a 30 gr Berger, they are getting over 5200 fps. Almost like shooting a lazer.
flatest shootin gun??
- Thread starter BLKCLOUD
- Start date
Of these factory varmint/predator rifles.
.204, .223 wssm, 22-250, 220 Swift, .243, .243 wssm
Shooting factory ammo (Hornady and Winchester for the WSSM). With a zero of 200 yards and a drop(“flat shooting”) determined at 500 yards not including wind drift.
The .243 wssm is the “flattest” shooting to 500 yards with a drop of - 25.5” with 55 grain ammo.
Some interesting notes after looking this over. In second place.204 with a 32 grain and .223 wssm with a 55 grain were about the same
.
The 22-250 and 220 Swift with 55 grain V-Max’s were about the same as the .243 with a 58 grain V-Max -33”. The Swift shooting 40’s was a inch better than the 22-250 shooting the same. – 30.80 compared to -31.7. The .204 with a 40 grain was better than the Swift and 22-250, based on stated velocity being actual.
What appears clear is that they are all close with the .243 wssm standing out. Also while the .204 is fast and flat, it gives up 15 to 23 grains of bullet to the 5 others all capable of whistleing 55 grain B-Tips. I did not check, as it was not asked, but wind drift would likely go to the .243 wssm also.
Could be wrong but,.243 wssm appears to be it for factory varmint rifles.
.204, .223 wssm, 22-250, 220 Swift, .243, .243 wssm
Shooting factory ammo (Hornady and Winchester for the WSSM). With a zero of 200 yards and a drop(“flat shooting”) determined at 500 yards not including wind drift.
The .243 wssm is the “flattest” shooting to 500 yards with a drop of - 25.5” with 55 grain ammo.
Some interesting notes after looking this over. In second place.204 with a 32 grain and .223 wssm with a 55 grain were about the same
.
The 22-250 and 220 Swift with 55 grain V-Max’s were about the same as the .243 with a 58 grain V-Max -33”. The Swift shooting 40’s was a inch better than the 22-250 shooting the same. – 30.80 compared to -31.7. The .204 with a 40 grain was better than the Swift and 22-250, based on stated velocity being actual.
What appears clear is that they are all close with the .243 wssm standing out. Also while the .204 is fast and flat, it gives up 15 to 23 grains of bullet to the 5 others all capable of whistleing 55 grain B-Tips. I did not check, as it was not asked, but wind drift would likely go to the .243 wssm also.
Could be wrong but,.243 wssm appears to be it for factory varmint rifles.
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steve garrett
Well-known member
the 204 trumps just about any of the standard cartridges including the 220 swift, it will also hold a winddrift advantage over the swift when shooting 40's while still maintaining a trajectory advantage, the only thing the swift does if give you energy on target over the 204. we had a dabate over on AR about this, check out a thread I started
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6711043/m/558108983
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6711043/m/558108983
Sooner or later, they all drop like a rock. No such thing as the old "stretched string" trajectory. Any of the fast stepping 22 centerfires and 6mm class cartridges are flat shooting enough to reasonable hunting ranges. After 300 yards or so, all bullets, from any rifle begin to head for mother earth, it's called gravity, no cartridge designer has defied it yet
Ugly Dog
New member
I had a 240 Wtby. and I'll just about bet nothing except maybe a 257 Wthby. is better. It was like a magic wand but was very, very picky and wasn't what I'd call cheap to shoot. If you lost brass it was like dropping a dollar. I know the 240 shoots flatter than any other commerical 6mm and better than the 22s. Of course I traded it for a swift, but that's another story.
This is an intereting thread. I have a .223 WSSM wildcat that will shoot 40gr v-max's at 4600 or more. Just can't see burning out a barrel to prove a point. It is hard to understand how a .204, 40gr can out run a Swift. With the same bullet weight, can a .204 push a 40g bullet at 4300? My .17 Rem with 30gr BT at 4000 is pretty flat as well.
Just don't see any point to this in the real world. To get something really flat you have to have a barrel burner. .257 Wthby is awesome for sure if you can shoot some of the VLD bullets in it. 25-06 is no slouch either. Barrels are expensive.
Just don't see any point to this in the real world. To get something really flat you have to have a barrel burner. .257 Wthby is awesome for sure if you can shoot some of the VLD bullets in it. 25-06 is no slouch either. Barrels are expensive.
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
It all depends on what range you are talking about. Plug the numbers into a ballistics program and see the results.
Jack
Jack
Quote:
the 204 trumps just about any of the standard cartridges including the 220 swift, it will also hold a winddrift advantage over the swift when shooting 40's while still maintaining a trajectory advantage, the only thing the swift does if give you energy on target over the 204. we had a dabate over on AR about this, check out a thread I started
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6711043/m/558108983
I politely disagree with that statement. I did review your link also. One problem is, although I gave it the published by Hornady velocity nod on my previous reply here. It is well documented that the .204 does not shoot a factory 32 grain V-Max at 4200 plus F.P.S. Many .204's do not stabalize the 40 grain V-Max which velocity is also published high with factory ammo.
The WSSM's are "standard cartriges" at least as much as the .204 is. The .204 certainly does not "trump" them and they can shoot 55 grains and more. If you took a .223 wssm with a lighter grain, the .204 is not even close.......just isn't fact. And thats giveing it the higher than actual velocity.
The other big differance here is. All the other's .223wssm, 22-250, Swift, .243, .243 wssm can whistle 50 some grain bullets so it's more apples to apples comparison at 500 yards. The .204 is giveing up approx. 50 % bullet mass. It's really closer to the .17 Rem (which will also zip'em) than the others. In the link they are comparing Swifts shooting 40 grains and .204's. few people shoot 40's from a Swift. A Swift will shoot a factory Hornady v max 40 grain at the published 4200 fps and higher. A .204 will not shoot a factory 40 grain v-max at the published 3900 fps. According to documentation (not me).
The .204 is likely the best P.Dog rifle going. But, I shoot side by side on a bench at 300 yards with a 22-250 shooting 50 -55 grain and it's not as accurate at 300 as the 22-250 no matter who is behind the trigger of either rifle or rifles. And the .243's are very accurate at 300. And from 300 yards out is why most buy these flat shooting varmint rifles.
I don't think the .204 "trumps" the others or the Swift and certainly not the wssm's. It may equal some and better some ...... depending on what you want. But, it does not "trump" the others and frankly with it's lighter bullets is in a differant class of apples.
BTW - before someone get's ticked off at me. all these type rifles are my favorites. For my area varmints and range, I just prefer the 50 grain and up flat shooters.
the 204 trumps just about any of the standard cartridges including the 220 swift, it will also hold a winddrift advantage over the swift when shooting 40's while still maintaining a trajectory advantage, the only thing the swift does if give you energy on target over the 204. we had a dabate over on AR about this, check out a thread I started
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6711043/m/558108983
I politely disagree with that statement. I did review your link also. One problem is, although I gave it the published by Hornady velocity nod on my previous reply here. It is well documented that the .204 does not shoot a factory 32 grain V-Max at 4200 plus F.P.S. Many .204's do not stabalize the 40 grain V-Max which velocity is also published high with factory ammo.
The WSSM's are "standard cartriges" at least as much as the .204 is. The .204 certainly does not "trump" them and they can shoot 55 grains and more. If you took a .223 wssm with a lighter grain, the .204 is not even close.......just isn't fact. And thats giveing it the higher than actual velocity.
The other big differance here is. All the other's .223wssm, 22-250, Swift, .243, .243 wssm can whistle 50 some grain bullets so it's more apples to apples comparison at 500 yards. The .204 is giveing up approx. 50 % bullet mass. It's really closer to the .17 Rem (which will also zip'em) than the others. In the link they are comparing Swifts shooting 40 grains and .204's. few people shoot 40's from a Swift. A Swift will shoot a factory Hornady v max 40 grain at the published 4200 fps and higher. A .204 will not shoot a factory 40 grain v-max at the published 3900 fps. According to documentation (not me).
The .204 is likely the best P.Dog rifle going. But, I shoot side by side on a bench at 300 yards with a 22-250 shooting 50 -55 grain and it's not as accurate at 300 as the 22-250 no matter who is behind the trigger of either rifle or rifles. And the .243's are very accurate at 300. And from 300 yards out is why most buy these flat shooting varmint rifles.
I don't think the .204 "trumps" the others or the Swift and certainly not the wssm's. It may equal some and better some ...... depending on what you want. But, it does not "trump" the others and frankly with it's lighter bullets is in a differant class of apples.
BTW - before someone get's ticked off at me. all these type rifles are my favorites. For my area varmints and range, I just prefer the 50 grain and up flat shooters.
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steve garrett
Well-known member
Quote:
Quote:
the 204 trumps just about any of the standard cartridges including the 220 swift, it will also hold a winddrift advantage over the swift when shooting 40's while still maintaining a trajectory advantage, the only thing the swift does if give you energy on target over the 204. we had a dabate over on AR about this, check out a thread I started
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6711043/m/558108983
I politely disagree with that statement. I did review your link also. One problem is, although I gave it the published by Hornady velocity nod on my previous reply here. It is well documented that the .204 does not shoot a factory 32 grain V-Max at 4200 plus F.P.S. Many .204's do not stabalize the 40 grain V-Max which velocity is also published high with factory ammo.
The WSSM's are "standard cartriges" at least as much as the .204 is. The .204 certainly does not "trump" them and they can shoot 55 grains and more. If you took a .223 wssm with a lighter grain, the .204 is not even close.......just isn't fact. And thats giveing it the higher than actual velocity.
The other big differance here is. All the other's .223wssm, 22-250, Swift, .243, .243 wssm can whistle 50 some grain bullets so it's more apples to apples comparison at 500 yards. The .204 is giveing up approx. 50 % bullet mass. It's really closer to the .17 Rem (which will also zip'em) than the others. In the link they are comparing Swifts shooting 40 grains and .204's. few people shoot 40's from a Swift. A Swift will shoot a factory Hornady v max 40 grain at the published 4200 fps and higher. A .204 will not shoot a factory 40 grain v-max at the published 3900 fps. According to documentation (not me).
The .204 is likely the best P.Dog rifle going. But, I shoot side by side on a bench at 300 yards with a 22-250 shooting 50 -55 grain and it's not as accurate at 300 as the 22-250 no matter who is behind the trigger of either rifle or rifles. And the .243's are very accurate at 300. And from 300 yards out is why most buy these flat shooting varmint rifles.
I don't think the .204 "trumps" the others or the Swift and certainly not the wssm's. It may equal some and better some ...... depending on what you want. But, it does not "trump" the others and frankly with it's lighter bullets is in a differant class of apples.
BTW - before someone get's ticked off at me. all these type rifles are my favorites. For my area varmints and range, I just prefer the 50 grain and up flat shooters.
You should read very carefully what I wrote, first of all, I never compare the swift with 40grain bullets!!!!! 40grain bullets are not a good overall match for the .224 caliber generally, they just run out of steam too quick, beit 223, 22-250 etc, even in the 223wssm. The BC of the bullet is too low!!! second of all the 223WSSM is a caliber that will soon be defunct it is not going to last, I have not taken the time to see what it can do, but its clear it will go the way of the co co bird, along with the 243WSSM etc. as far as accuracy goes, There is no way the swift is more accurate, the 204 will have flat out less drop at 300yards, at this range we are still only talking about 1.5" of difference. of course accuracy will depend on individual rifles themselves.
As for reloaders not getting the published #'s, again do some research and stop listening to myths, there is a guy who has safely exceeded 4300fps with 32grn bullets. ITs over on the AR forum.
THE 204 IS A FLATTER SHOOTING CARTRIDGE THAN THE 220 SWIFT, I challange anyone to prove me wrong with #'s and ballistic tables, if you can't then quite reciting gun myths and stories
Quote:
the 204 trumps just about any of the standard cartridges including the 220 swift, it will also hold a winddrift advantage over the swift when shooting 40's while still maintaining a trajectory advantage, the only thing the swift does if give you energy on target over the 204. we had a dabate over on AR about this, check out a thread I started
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6711043/m/558108983
I politely disagree with that statement. I did review your link also. One problem is, although I gave it the published by Hornady velocity nod on my previous reply here. It is well documented that the .204 does not shoot a factory 32 grain V-Max at 4200 plus F.P.S. Many .204's do not stabalize the 40 grain V-Max which velocity is also published high with factory ammo.
The WSSM's are "standard cartriges" at least as much as the .204 is. The .204 certainly does not "trump" them and they can shoot 55 grains and more. If you took a .223 wssm with a lighter grain, the .204 is not even close.......just isn't fact. And thats giveing it the higher than actual velocity.
The other big differance here is. All the other's .223wssm, 22-250, Swift, .243, .243 wssm can whistle 50 some grain bullets so it's more apples to apples comparison at 500 yards. The .204 is giveing up approx. 50 % bullet mass. It's really closer to the .17 Rem (which will also zip'em) than the others. In the link they are comparing Swifts shooting 40 grains and .204's. few people shoot 40's from a Swift. A Swift will shoot a factory Hornady v max 40 grain at the published 4200 fps and higher. A .204 will not shoot a factory 40 grain v-max at the published 3900 fps. According to documentation (not me).
The .204 is likely the best P.Dog rifle going. But, I shoot side by side on a bench at 300 yards with a 22-250 shooting 50 -55 grain and it's not as accurate at 300 as the 22-250 no matter who is behind the trigger of either rifle or rifles. And the .243's are very accurate at 300. And from 300 yards out is why most buy these flat shooting varmint rifles.
I don't think the .204 "trumps" the others or the Swift and certainly not the wssm's. It may equal some and better some ...... depending on what you want. But, it does not "trump" the others and frankly with it's lighter bullets is in a differant class of apples.
BTW - before someone get's ticked off at me. all these type rifles are my favorites. For my area varmints and range, I just prefer the 50 grain and up flat shooters.
You should read very carefully what I wrote, first of all, I never compare the swift with 40grain bullets!!!!! 40grain bullets are not a good overall match for the .224 caliber generally, they just run out of steam too quick, beit 223, 22-250 etc, even in the 223wssm. The BC of the bullet is too low!!! second of all the 223WSSM is a caliber that will soon be defunct it is not going to last, I have not taken the time to see what it can do, but its clear it will go the way of the co co bird, along with the 243WSSM etc. as far as accuracy goes, There is no way the swift is more accurate, the 204 will have flat out less drop at 300yards, at this range we are still only talking about 1.5" of difference. of course accuracy will depend on individual rifles themselves.
As for reloaders not getting the published #'s, again do some research and stop listening to myths, there is a guy who has safely exceeded 4300fps with 32grn bullets. ITs over on the AR forum.
THE 204 IS A FLATTER SHOOTING CARTRIDGE THAN THE 220 SWIFT, I challange anyone to prove me wrong with #'s and ballistic tables, if you can't then quite reciting gun myths and stories
Steve,
I did not mention "reloaders" ever, just factory ammo. I compared with factory to keep it equal. If you start throwing in reload formulas they are less equal.
In regards to accuracy. That is accuracy at 300 pure and simple not drop. That has been my experiance at my local range.
I used what factory calibers are available in the present. I can not predict the future. Both the wssm.....actually all three have potential. I realize there are some that say they have problems and there are also those who actually own them, and say they don't. I don't own one nor have shot them enough, so I am not going to say.
Every rifle has pro's and con's. As I stated the .17 Rem is fast also. Have you compared that to the .204 ?
BTW- I appreciate your challenge. But, you did not write as to the Swift alone you wrote. "the 204 trumps just about any of the standard cartridges including the 220 swift"
Most on this thread likely enjoy the same type rifles anyways.
Have a good day.
I did not mention "reloaders" ever, just factory ammo. I compared with factory to keep it equal. If you start throwing in reload formulas they are less equal.
In regards to accuracy. That is accuracy at 300 pure and simple not drop. That has been my experiance at my local range.
I used what factory calibers are available in the present. I can not predict the future. Both the wssm.....actually all three have potential. I realize there are some that say they have problems and there are also those who actually own them, and say they don't. I don't own one nor have shot them enough, so I am not going to say.
Every rifle has pro's and con's. As I stated the .17 Rem is fast also. Have you compared that to the .204 ?
BTW- I appreciate your challenge. But, you did not write as to the Swift alone you wrote. "the 204 trumps just about any of the standard cartridges including the 220 swift"
Most on this thread likely enjoy the same type rifles anyways.
Have a good day.
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steve garrett
Well-known member
So what you are saying is the 220 swift has more inherent accuacy than the 204 ruger?? I don't know if this has ever been proven on any cartridge, I will say the 204 is based on the 222rem mag case, which was the darling of target shooters back in the day.
I have never studied the ballistics of the 17rem, If I had to guess its too small a bore diameter to truly be an effiecint cartridge.
I have never studied the ballistics of the 17rem, If I had to guess its too small a bore diameter to truly be an effiecint cartridge.
Quote:
So what you are saying is the 220 swift has more inherent accuacy than the 204 ruger?? I don't know if this has ever been proven on any cartridge, I will say the 204 is based on the 222rem mag case, which was the darling of target shooters back in the day.
I have never studied the ballistics of the 17rem, If I had to guess its too small a bore diameter to truly be an effiecint cartridge.
No..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif I did not say "more inherent accuracy". I said the Swift,22-250 & .243 are more accurate at 300 yards than the .204 and these type calibers are typically used for 300 yard and out varmint shooting. That is my experiance based on shooting from bench, including calm low wind days. I can not shoot a .204 at 300 yards as well as the others. The 22-250 shoots nearly as well at 300 as 200. And in proportion to what it does at 100, it's better at 300 than 200 IMO.
BTW- As is my understanding. It was the .222(tripple deuce,rather than the mag) and the 22-250's & Swifts that had some success in bench rest before the 6mm craze.
This is in good spirits as I personally favor all flat accurate varmint calibers in bolt action anyways........just always liked them. If I had the money I would have one of each from .17 up to 25-06. Life is to short to worry about barrel life. And I am not shooting on a BR loop anyways. I shoot at a rod & gun club pretty often, off my back deck and hunt. For cheap practice I also shoot a 22 lr a lot. I think there is to much talk about barrel life from novice bench shooters who hunt. Differant if you were on a bench rest circuit as compared to varmints and a egg shoot now and then.
So what you are saying is the 220 swift has more inherent accuacy than the 204 ruger?? I don't know if this has ever been proven on any cartridge, I will say the 204 is based on the 222rem mag case, which was the darling of target shooters back in the day.
I have never studied the ballistics of the 17rem, If I had to guess its too small a bore diameter to truly be an effiecint cartridge.
No..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif I did not say "more inherent accuracy". I said the Swift,22-250 & .243 are more accurate at 300 yards than the .204 and these type calibers are typically used for 300 yard and out varmint shooting. That is my experiance based on shooting from bench, including calm low wind days. I can not shoot a .204 at 300 yards as well as the others. The 22-250 shoots nearly as well at 300 as 200. And in proportion to what it does at 100, it's better at 300 than 200 IMO.
BTW- As is my understanding. It was the .222(tripple deuce,rather than the mag) and the 22-250's & Swifts that had some success in bench rest before the 6mm craze.
This is in good spirits as I personally favor all flat accurate varmint calibers in bolt action anyways........just always liked them. If I had the money I would have one of each from .17 up to 25-06. Life is to short to worry about barrel life. And I am not shooting on a BR loop anyways. I shoot at a rod & gun club pretty often, off my back deck and hunt. For cheap practice I also shoot a 22 lr a lot. I think there is to much talk about barrel life from novice bench shooters who hunt. Differant if you were on a bench rest circuit as compared to varmints and a egg shoot now and then.