Gun Safe
- Thread starter 5shot
- Start date
I have a Remington safe and am quite satisfied with it except its much too small. I also would be leery of an electronic lock, mine is plain old combo style. I got it from a sams club for under 900. it only holds 18 long guns. I would go for alot bigger if I ever update it. Barry
Jay Johnson
New member
My advice is to buy a quality unit your not going to get one of these a year. Get one bigger than you refrigerator or you’ll wish you did sooner or later you will fill it. The electric locking device hum what happens when the battery goes dead? I’d stay with the old style S & G lock.
When the battery goes dead you pop the face plate off and replace it. It doesn't lose your combinations.
I'm sure Remington makes fine safes. I have a Liberty. Rem probably uses the same locks, as mostly they all use Sergeant & Greenleaf locks.
Get the biggest one you can afford and find a place for it to sit. You will fill it up over time, I need a second safe soon.
Fire resistance will cost an extra $100 to $150 or so, last I looked. I feel it's worth it.
As to locks: I bought mine with a standard S&G manual combo lock. It worked, but was slow, not something you'd want to deal with if you needed a gun fast. While under warranty the lock jammed up and I couldn't open the safe. Liberty authorized a locksmith to come out at their expense, and he couldn't open it (this was on a weekend). On monday they located a safesmith and sent him out. With information they provided him it still took him over 2 hours to get it open, these things are tough.
At any rate, the lock mechanism itself had jammed up and needed replacement. The only difference between the manual and electronic ones is what you see on the outside, plus the addition inside of a motor drive, the lock itself is the same. Liberty offered to let me upgrade to the elctronic lock at cost, with them eating the installation since they had to pay the guy to instal a lock anyway, so I did it. I'm very pleased that I did, 7 touches on the keypad and I'm in, it's reliable and fast.
I did manage to damage the keypad when I moved to Arizona from Tennessee. That part just snaps on and cost $25 to replace. The combination is stored inside the safe, so replacing the keypad changes nothing and exposes no security vulnerabilities. It takes a single 9 volt battery, which typically lasts 10 years of opening the safe 3 times a day, every day, for those 10 years. Replace it every 5 if you're nervous about it.
I'm sure Remington makes fine safes. I have a Liberty. Rem probably uses the same locks, as mostly they all use Sergeant & Greenleaf locks.
Get the biggest one you can afford and find a place for it to sit. You will fill it up over time, I need a second safe soon.
Fire resistance will cost an extra $100 to $150 or so, last I looked. I feel it's worth it.
As to locks: I bought mine with a standard S&G manual combo lock. It worked, but was slow, not something you'd want to deal with if you needed a gun fast. While under warranty the lock jammed up and I couldn't open the safe. Liberty authorized a locksmith to come out at their expense, and he couldn't open it (this was on a weekend). On monday they located a safesmith and sent him out. With information they provided him it still took him over 2 hours to get it open, these things are tough.
At any rate, the lock mechanism itself had jammed up and needed replacement. The only difference between the manual and electronic ones is what you see on the outside, plus the addition inside of a motor drive, the lock itself is the same. Liberty offered to let me upgrade to the elctronic lock at cost, with them eating the installation since they had to pay the guy to instal a lock anyway, so I did it. I'm very pleased that I did, 7 touches on the keypad and I'm in, it's reliable and fast.
I did manage to damage the keypad when I moved to Arizona from Tennessee. That part just snaps on and cost $25 to replace. The combination is stored inside the safe, so replacing the keypad changes nothing and exposes no security vulnerabilities. It takes a single 9 volt battery, which typically lasts 10 years of opening the safe 3 times a day, every day, for those 10 years. Replace it every 5 if you're nervous about it.
Dawgkilla
New member
Remington makes (probably) the prettiest safe you can spend money on but if you are less worried about how beautiful your safe is get a Liberty.
For $1200 you can get a Liberty (the Colonial model is what I have) that will hold (about) 8-10 more guns than the same priced Remington.
For $1200 you can get a Liberty (the Colonial model is what I have) that will hold (about) 8-10 more guns than the same priced Remington.
Jason El Paso
Active member
I am using a Cannon, and a Fort Knotts safes, I have been looking into the Liberty, I need another one. 
Safecracker
New member
Hey guys and gals,
This subject is right up my ally. As you can see from my handle, this is what I do, and have been doing for the last 45 years.
The Remington and Fort Knox safes are top drawer units, as are the Cannon, Liberty, and Browning safes. Bass pro shops sells their Red Head line and they are just as good.
What you want to look for, is a safe with a recessed door,(very hard to pry on), and as many live, (those that extend or retract when you turn the handle), bolts as you can find. The more bolts, the better, and the bigger they are, the stronger and safer it will be.
Make sure the safe has at least one relocking device, in addition to the one that should be inside the lock. If someone was to knock the dial off and drive the lock to the inside of the safe, the internal relocker will fire, and you will need a professional to open it. At least your guns will still be inside when he gets it open.
You will also want to be sure to bolt the safe down. The floors of most gun safes come pre drilled for this purpose. If you are bolting to a wood floor, it can be pryed up. See if you can get some kind of plate under the floor and pre weld bolts to it that will match the holes in the bottom of your safe. Push the bolts up thru the floor into the safe and put nuts on from the inside. If they are going to steel the thing, make them work for it. If you have a slab floor, use 1/2 inch lag bolts, three to four inches long with anchors drilled into the floor. Short of a tow truck, this safe isn't going anywhere.
There is a device that sells for about twenty five dollars, called a Golden Rod, that is used to control moisture inside your safe. I use a tuna fish can filled with cat litter to do the same thing. I change the litter about once every three or four months, and in 30 years have never had a rust problem. You can buy a lot of cat litter with twenty five bucks!
The paint looks as good as the paint job on your finer cars, but you pay for it, and pretty paint will not make it any stronger. Spend less on paint and buy the fire proof upgrade. A "C" fire rating will keep the inside of your safe under three hundred fifty degrees for an hour in a seventeen hundred degree fire. Unless you are storing a lot of chemicals and gasoline, Most homes could burn to the ground, and not get that hot. Hopefully, the fire department will get there soon enough.
As far as the lock goes, RUN, DON"T WALK away from the electronic locks. In my opinion, they are nothing but trouble. Sargent and Greenleaf, make an electronic safe lock that is very popular with the gun safe manufacturers. It is the model 6120. They sell it telling you that you can have up to nine different combinations that will open the safe. There is also the availibility of a time delay on opening. Up tp nine minutes in one minute increments with the 6120, and up to 27 minutes, in three minutes increments with the 6123.
More than one combination with either modes is useless, as there are no audit capibilities. You won't know who opened it or when, unless you are standing there with them. As far as the delay, if someone is standing there waiting for me to open my safe, and has to wait for a time delay, he is going to be really ticked off. He may just shoot me and leave.
There are two very weak points with this lock.
1. the moter armature is threaded, and when activated bu the input of a combination, it turns clockwise, and a small piece plastic type material winds itself up the threads. This is what withdraws the locking bolt. This piece of plastic material is very prone to stripping out. When it does, you are locked out, and I come to the rescue to the tune of about $400.00 to $500.00! Ninty nine times out of a hundred, this is why a gun safe with a S&G 6120 locks up.
You can tell if the lock is a 6120 by feeling the buttons. If they are plastic, it is a 6120 or a 6123 S&G lock. Yoy don't want this one.
2. If the buttons are made of rubber, you probably have a LaGard electronic lock. These are much better as well as much more expensive. Thats why they are not as common on gun safes. Might raise the price by $200. or so. The week spot on this lock is the battery connections. They use two nine volt batteries, and the wires to the batteries are always breaking. Also while changing batteries, people tend to twist the main lock cable, and break the very fine wires.
LOCK OUT!!!!!!!!! Only way to get it open now is by drilling for internal wires, and putting external power to them, or drilling for a solinoid pin. Either way you have to replace the lock, and may have to do some welding on the door. Kiss that pretty paint goodbye.
My advice is to stay with the S&G 6730 manual combination lock, or see if you can have it upgraded to the very manipulation resistant 8500 series lock. This is what the Goverrnment used till new GSA regs took effect a few years ago.
Anybody that has access to the right tools and knows how and where to use them, can get your safe open. Those people are few and far between.
Your safe is not designed to keep a professional out. The ametures are the ones you have to worry about. I have never seen a locked up gun safe, opened by someone other than a professional safeman, and on every occasion, the lock out was caused by a malfunction in an electronic lock, or a forgotton combination on a manual lock.
I have never spent more than twenty minutes with a drill in opening a gun safe, but, I know where to drill, and the bits I use cost about eighty five dollars a piece. Repairs are extra.
If anyone wants more information, I'll be glad to help. Just reply here.
John
This subject is right up my ally. As you can see from my handle, this is what I do, and have been doing for the last 45 years.
The Remington and Fort Knox safes are top drawer units, as are the Cannon, Liberty, and Browning safes. Bass pro shops sells their Red Head line and they are just as good.
What you want to look for, is a safe with a recessed door,(very hard to pry on), and as many live, (those that extend or retract when you turn the handle), bolts as you can find. The more bolts, the better, and the bigger they are, the stronger and safer it will be.
Make sure the safe has at least one relocking device, in addition to the one that should be inside the lock. If someone was to knock the dial off and drive the lock to the inside of the safe, the internal relocker will fire, and you will need a professional to open it. At least your guns will still be inside when he gets it open.
You will also want to be sure to bolt the safe down. The floors of most gun safes come pre drilled for this purpose. If you are bolting to a wood floor, it can be pryed up. See if you can get some kind of plate under the floor and pre weld bolts to it that will match the holes in the bottom of your safe. Push the bolts up thru the floor into the safe and put nuts on from the inside. If they are going to steel the thing, make them work for it. If you have a slab floor, use 1/2 inch lag bolts, three to four inches long with anchors drilled into the floor. Short of a tow truck, this safe isn't going anywhere.
There is a device that sells for about twenty five dollars, called a Golden Rod, that is used to control moisture inside your safe. I use a tuna fish can filled with cat litter to do the same thing. I change the litter about once every three or four months, and in 30 years have never had a rust problem. You can buy a lot of cat litter with twenty five bucks!
The paint looks as good as the paint job on your finer cars, but you pay for it, and pretty paint will not make it any stronger. Spend less on paint and buy the fire proof upgrade. A "C" fire rating will keep the inside of your safe under three hundred fifty degrees for an hour in a seventeen hundred degree fire. Unless you are storing a lot of chemicals and gasoline, Most homes could burn to the ground, and not get that hot. Hopefully, the fire department will get there soon enough.
As far as the lock goes, RUN, DON"T WALK away from the electronic locks. In my opinion, they are nothing but trouble. Sargent and Greenleaf, make an electronic safe lock that is very popular with the gun safe manufacturers. It is the model 6120. They sell it telling you that you can have up to nine different combinations that will open the safe. There is also the availibility of a time delay on opening. Up tp nine minutes in one minute increments with the 6120, and up to 27 minutes, in three minutes increments with the 6123.
More than one combination with either modes is useless, as there are no audit capibilities. You won't know who opened it or when, unless you are standing there with them. As far as the delay, if someone is standing there waiting for me to open my safe, and has to wait for a time delay, he is going to be really ticked off. He may just shoot me and leave.
There are two very weak points with this lock.
1. the moter armature is threaded, and when activated bu the input of a combination, it turns clockwise, and a small piece plastic type material winds itself up the threads. This is what withdraws the locking bolt. This piece of plastic material is very prone to stripping out. When it does, you are locked out, and I come to the rescue to the tune of about $400.00 to $500.00! Ninty nine times out of a hundred, this is why a gun safe with a S&G 6120 locks up.
You can tell if the lock is a 6120 by feeling the buttons. If they are plastic, it is a 6120 or a 6123 S&G lock. Yoy don't want this one.
2. If the buttons are made of rubber, you probably have a LaGard electronic lock. These are much better as well as much more expensive. Thats why they are not as common on gun safes. Might raise the price by $200. or so. The week spot on this lock is the battery connections. They use two nine volt batteries, and the wires to the batteries are always breaking. Also while changing batteries, people tend to twist the main lock cable, and break the very fine wires.
LOCK OUT!!!!!!!!! Only way to get it open now is by drilling for internal wires, and putting external power to them, or drilling for a solinoid pin. Either way you have to replace the lock, and may have to do some welding on the door. Kiss that pretty paint goodbye.
My advice is to stay with the S&G 6730 manual combination lock, or see if you can have it upgraded to the very manipulation resistant 8500 series lock. This is what the Goverrnment used till new GSA regs took effect a few years ago.
Anybody that has access to the right tools and knows how and where to use them, can get your safe open. Those people are few and far between.
Your safe is not designed to keep a professional out. The ametures are the ones you have to worry about. I have never seen a locked up gun safe, opened by someone other than a professional safeman, and on every occasion, the lock out was caused by a malfunction in an electronic lock, or a forgotton combination on a manual lock.
I have never spent more than twenty minutes with a drill in opening a gun safe, but, I know where to drill, and the bits I use cost about eighty five dollars a piece. Repairs are extra.
If anyone wants more information, I'll be glad to help. Just reply here.
John
BroncoGlenn
New member
I've been looking into the "pretty painted" gun safes lately since the wife actually thinks it would look good as part of the living room decor. Cool! So a nice gloss paint job and trim is nice, but not overly so. We also decided that a manual lock would look better than an electronic.
A couple things we leaned when looking for a safe:
Do not put things like valuable photographs or stamps in the safes since most of them will still allow the internal temperature to get high enough to destroy the photo paper and warp the stamps. But Walmart sells the little fire proof boxes designed for this and they can live inside the big safe.
Another thing is a clutch system on the handle. If someone tries to put a lot of force on it the handle will just spin on them.
As for the combination locks the downside is that if you want the combination changed it requires a locksmith. However, if you leave it set to factory and forget the combination, then the combination can be requested from the factory.
If someone tries to smash the combination lock/key pad, it breaks a glass plate behind the lock causing a weight to fall which prevents the lock bolts from retracting. A locksmith then needs to come in and using a template drills a hole in the precise spot(s) and pulls the weight up so the bolts can be retracted. Expensive to have done yes, but I would think it would be covered under homeowner/renter insurance.
Is it possible some less than honarable person can get the dimensions or the template for drilling? Sure. But the amount of time it would take to drill through would be a pretty decent amount of time and if there is a house alarm then they more than likely aren't going to be spending the time to get in there and will just grab what's in plain sight.
The way I look at it is such that if someone does break in or case the place they'll see the safe and figgure that all the good stuff is secured away so they could probably at best make out with the TV and VCR and some small appliances typical of a smash and grab. But then if my neighbors see some stranger walking out the door with a TV in their hands I'm sure they would take note. I guess that's one nice thing about the 'burbs.
Glenn
A couple things we leaned when looking for a safe:
Do not put things like valuable photographs or stamps in the safes since most of them will still allow the internal temperature to get high enough to destroy the photo paper and warp the stamps. But Walmart sells the little fire proof boxes designed for this and they can live inside the big safe.
Another thing is a clutch system on the handle. If someone tries to put a lot of force on it the handle will just spin on them.
As for the combination locks the downside is that if you want the combination changed it requires a locksmith. However, if you leave it set to factory and forget the combination, then the combination can be requested from the factory.
If someone tries to smash the combination lock/key pad, it breaks a glass plate behind the lock causing a weight to fall which prevents the lock bolts from retracting. A locksmith then needs to come in and using a template drills a hole in the precise spot(s) and pulls the weight up so the bolts can be retracted. Expensive to have done yes, but I would think it would be covered under homeowner/renter insurance.
Is it possible some less than honarable person can get the dimensions or the template for drilling? Sure. But the amount of time it would take to drill through would be a pretty decent amount of time and if there is a house alarm then they more than likely aren't going to be spending the time to get in there and will just grab what's in plain sight.
The way I look at it is such that if someone does break in or case the place they'll see the safe and figgure that all the good stuff is secured away so they could probably at best make out with the TV and VCR and some small appliances typical of a smash and grab. But then if my neighbors see some stranger walking out the door with a TV in their hands I'm sure they would take note. I guess that's one nice thing about the 'burbs.
Glenn
coyotebuster
New member
dang bronco, does she hae a sis thats like 17 0r 18???
BroncoGlenn
New member
She has a sister, but let's just say that you're not her type
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Glenn
Safecracker
New member
Hey Guys, John here again.
BroncoGlen is correct about stamps and snapshots and the like in your gun safe. Even with the fire proof models, the heat will be too much for this kind of paper. The fire proof boxes sold at Wal Mart, Office Depot and the like are what you want to have inside your gun safe, along with the safes own fire proofing. One or the other won't do it. They both have to be fire proof. Also, even in the second safe, computer disks and C/D's will be destroyed in a fire. Keeping them safe in a fire will require what they call a "media safe". This very small box, along with the gun safe's own fire protection is where you want your floppies and C/D's. This will cost you an extra $100.00 to $200.00.
The clutch system on the door handle is an option available on the more expensive safes, and is a very good idea. With out it, seperation of the handle from the bolt works will be very expensive to repair.
I have never seen a glass relocker plate on a gun safe, but that is not to say that they are not used. The glass plate is similar to the type of glass used in a cars windshield. It is designed to shatter into very small pieces if the lock is attacked either by drilling or a full frontal attack with hammers and the like. There are usually six to seven holes predrilled into this glass plate. Four of them are there so the lock mounting screws can be screwed into the door's lock mounting plate. One hole is for the lock's spindle to go thru. The spindle is part of the dial, and connects to the lock's drive cam. The drive cam is what turns the three combination wheels. The last two holes are connected to spring loaded relocking bolts. These relocking bolts in most cases are randomly placed on the inside of the door, near the boltworks, and welded in place. Most of the time, they are installed by the guy that is assembling the safe door, and he won't be keeping any records of where they are placed. This meens that if they are set off, you have to first find them, then defeat them. Very time consuming, but at $96.00 an hour, I'll look till I find them all!
To them, are connected cables that are connected at the other end to these relocking bolts. The springs are compressed, and the cables are wound around pins or studs. If the glass is broken, the relocking bolts fly out and block the bolt works from moving and releasing the door.
The cables are usually made of stainless steel, similar in size to the brake cables on your mountain bike. Some tomes if they are worried about an attack by torch, they use a cable made of a woven synthetic thread, almost like dental floss. If you heat it, it will seperate, and your relockers fire.
Glass plates are usually found only on safes that a jewelery store or pawn shop might have, and most bank vaults have them.
Any time you have a safe with glass relocking plates it is a very good idea to have a competent safe technician check out your safe BEFORE YOU LOAD IT UP, AND CLOSE THE DOOR. If you are not extreamly careful when moving a safe with this kind of hardware, it might get cracked or broken while moving it, and closing the door will fire the relockers.
My average price for opening a safe is about $400.00. Add fired relockers, and you can at least tripple that! The repairs are extra.
Hope I was of some help to you all.
Happy shopping.
John
BroncoGlen is correct about stamps and snapshots and the like in your gun safe. Even with the fire proof models, the heat will be too much for this kind of paper. The fire proof boxes sold at Wal Mart, Office Depot and the like are what you want to have inside your gun safe, along with the safes own fire proofing. One or the other won't do it. They both have to be fire proof. Also, even in the second safe, computer disks and C/D's will be destroyed in a fire. Keeping them safe in a fire will require what they call a "media safe". This very small box, along with the gun safe's own fire protection is where you want your floppies and C/D's. This will cost you an extra $100.00 to $200.00.
The clutch system on the door handle is an option available on the more expensive safes, and is a very good idea. With out it, seperation of the handle from the bolt works will be very expensive to repair.
I have never seen a glass relocker plate on a gun safe, but that is not to say that they are not used. The glass plate is similar to the type of glass used in a cars windshield. It is designed to shatter into very small pieces if the lock is attacked either by drilling or a full frontal attack with hammers and the like. There are usually six to seven holes predrilled into this glass plate. Four of them are there so the lock mounting screws can be screwed into the door's lock mounting plate. One hole is for the lock's spindle to go thru. The spindle is part of the dial, and connects to the lock's drive cam. The drive cam is what turns the three combination wheels. The last two holes are connected to spring loaded relocking bolts. These relocking bolts in most cases are randomly placed on the inside of the door, near the boltworks, and welded in place. Most of the time, they are installed by the guy that is assembling the safe door, and he won't be keeping any records of where they are placed. This meens that if they are set off, you have to first find them, then defeat them. Very time consuming, but at $96.00 an hour, I'll look till I find them all!
To them, are connected cables that are connected at the other end to these relocking bolts. The springs are compressed, and the cables are wound around pins or studs. If the glass is broken, the relocking bolts fly out and block the bolt works from moving and releasing the door.
The cables are usually made of stainless steel, similar in size to the brake cables on your mountain bike. Some tomes if they are worried about an attack by torch, they use a cable made of a woven synthetic thread, almost like dental floss. If you heat it, it will seperate, and your relockers fire.
Glass plates are usually found only on safes that a jewelery store or pawn shop might have, and most bank vaults have them.
Any time you have a safe with glass relocking plates it is a very good idea to have a competent safe technician check out your safe BEFORE YOU LOAD IT UP, AND CLOSE THE DOOR. If you are not extreamly careful when moving a safe with this kind of hardware, it might get cracked or broken while moving it, and closing the door will fire the relockers.
My average price for opening a safe is about $400.00. Add fired relockers, and you can at least tripple that! The repairs are extra.
Hope I was of some help to you all.
Happy shopping.
John
BroncoGlenn
New member
The Cannon safes I was looking at at a local safe shop had the glass plate.
I ran across another safe vendor at the last gun show and the line he sold didn't use a glass plate, but a plate of packed ball bearings or something like that is what I remebered.
I have a friend of mine who works for an armored transport/safe company, and he has to do brute force entry at times. One of their cash safes at a customer site had a problem where one of the internal mechanisms broke that required drilling. When he drilled into it they found that a pendulum like piece (I think that's how he described it) had broken off and he had to drill about a half dozen holes to defeat the bolts. Phone calls back and forth to the safe design department and talking with the guy who worked on the design he was able to get measurements on how far down and over to drill each hole. Took him the entire day to get into it and a few drill bits and he wasn't too happy about being the guinea pig to develop the drilling template.
Seems to me a plasma cutter would be the way to go. In less than half an hour you could have the whole outer shell of the door removed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Glenn
I ran across another safe vendor at the last gun show and the line he sold didn't use a glass plate, but a plate of packed ball bearings or something like that is what I remebered.
I have a friend of mine who works for an armored transport/safe company, and he has to do brute force entry at times. One of their cash safes at a customer site had a problem where one of the internal mechanisms broke that required drilling. When he drilled into it they found that a pendulum like piece (I think that's how he described it) had broken off and he had to drill about a half dozen holes to defeat the bolts. Phone calls back and forth to the safe design department and talking with the guy who worked on the design he was able to get measurements on how far down and over to drill each hole. Took him the entire day to get into it and a few drill bits and he wasn't too happy about being the guinea pig to develop the drilling template.
Seems to me a plasma cutter would be the way to go. In less than half an hour you could have the whole outer shell of the door removed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Glenn
Safecracker
New member
Glen,
Your friend really had a workout on that safe. It sounds like there was a problem in the bolt mechinism where unlocking the lock would not allow the door to be opened. I have spent up to four days opening some of the French safes made by a company called Fichette Bausche. Most bank vaults are easier to open than these safes. They use both hard plate and glass to protect their locks. Most of their safes have two locks on them. One is a mechanical combination lock, and the other one is a key lock.
I did not know that Cannon was using glass in their containers. Maybe I can up grade my own safe.
I have done some custom work on my older Cannon safe. It alarmed on a seperate zone from the rest of the building. There are three different hard plates in it. There are five relockers, other than the two that are in the lock to begin with. I have thermal protection in it. If it gets over 165 degrees, it fires the relockers. and there are three tear gas vials in there. You break one by drilling in the wrong place, or by trying to move the safe, and you will get a nice surprise.
Then we have Ceaser and Brutis. They are my two dogs. Ceaser is a 200 pound Great Dane, and Brutis as a 115 pound Doberman. Both these dogs have been trained to eat only when I or my brother feed them, and no one else. If you are in the house and not with me or my brother, you had better be ready to kill them, ot they just might make you their new play toy. They play very rough.
The ball bearing impregnated plate you spoke of is a very tough drill. The plate is a composite of special resin that is designed to get hot and melt to a slight degree when drilled.
When you pull the bit out, the material flows back and fills the hole you just drilled making it impossible to get your optics in the hole and see what you are doing. That is providing you got a hole drilled in the first place. This resin is impregnated not only with ball bearings, but also carbide chips, ceramic chips, small chuncks of copper, and many other drill bit distroying objects. Have you ever tried to drill a hole in a ball bearing? It is not fun. It is almost impossible to do because the drill bit tends to wander off to one side where it will no longer cut. I use a 1/4 inch diamond tipped hole saw to cut the bearings with. This works pretty well till I reach the point where I get into the other, softer stuff which fills up the cutting surface, and renders the bit useless. While cutting, you create heat. You don't want to get things too hot because you will make more trouble for your self. Remember the synthetic thread connected to those relockers that you don't know where they are? They are designed to melt with too much heat. You also have to be extreamly carefull that a hot chip from your drilling does not cut or melt that string.
Something else to cause you grief is the composit material holding all this stuff together. That plate will self heal. That is, the hole you drill generates heat. When and if you get a hole in it, the heated resin can refill the hole you just drilled. It is like heating a piece of plastic just to the point where it changes shape. It will flow into the hole you just drilled, taking some of the smaller ball bearings and other junk with it, and the hole you just spent the better part of your morning drilling,is no longer there! Now I know what your thinking, I'll just leave the bit in the hole so it can't refill the hole. When it cools, I'll pull it out, and I have my hole! WRONG!!!!! You have just made your extreamly hard drill bit part of your hard plate. The bit has now been glued, so to speak, into the hole you made. You think drilling into a ball bearing is difficult, thy to drill a hole into a drill bit covered in diamond dust! It's not going to happen. Now you start all over with a new hole. Oh, by the way, unless you have access to some very expensive optic equipment, and know how to use it, there is only one place you can drill most locks where it will do you any good, and you just filled that place with something you can't drill thru!! GAME OVER!!!!
Any way, I'm having a good time rambling about my job. I really love this kind of work. I started with my dad when I was about seven years old, and have been doing it ever sense. Almost 46 years now. I don't think I will ever retire. If I don't die while hunting, I'll probably die on a job site somewhere, but I'll have a smile on my face, cause I died doing what I love to do.
Have a good day my friends. I'll be on the boards somewhere.
John
Your friend really had a workout on that safe. It sounds like there was a problem in the bolt mechinism where unlocking the lock would not allow the door to be opened. I have spent up to four days opening some of the French safes made by a company called Fichette Bausche. Most bank vaults are easier to open than these safes. They use both hard plate and glass to protect their locks. Most of their safes have two locks on them. One is a mechanical combination lock, and the other one is a key lock.
I did not know that Cannon was using glass in their containers. Maybe I can up grade my own safe.
I have done some custom work on my older Cannon safe. It alarmed on a seperate zone from the rest of the building. There are three different hard plates in it. There are five relockers, other than the two that are in the lock to begin with. I have thermal protection in it. If it gets over 165 degrees, it fires the relockers. and there are three tear gas vials in there. You break one by drilling in the wrong place, or by trying to move the safe, and you will get a nice surprise.
Then we have Ceaser and Brutis. They are my two dogs. Ceaser is a 200 pound Great Dane, and Brutis as a 115 pound Doberman. Both these dogs have been trained to eat only when I or my brother feed them, and no one else. If you are in the house and not with me or my brother, you had better be ready to kill them, ot they just might make you their new play toy. They play very rough.
The ball bearing impregnated plate you spoke of is a very tough drill. The plate is a composite of special resin that is designed to get hot and melt to a slight degree when drilled.
When you pull the bit out, the material flows back and fills the hole you just drilled making it impossible to get your optics in the hole and see what you are doing. That is providing you got a hole drilled in the first place. This resin is impregnated not only with ball bearings, but also carbide chips, ceramic chips, small chuncks of copper, and many other drill bit distroying objects. Have you ever tried to drill a hole in a ball bearing? It is not fun. It is almost impossible to do because the drill bit tends to wander off to one side where it will no longer cut. I use a 1/4 inch diamond tipped hole saw to cut the bearings with. This works pretty well till I reach the point where I get into the other, softer stuff which fills up the cutting surface, and renders the bit useless. While cutting, you create heat. You don't want to get things too hot because you will make more trouble for your self. Remember the synthetic thread connected to those relockers that you don't know where they are? They are designed to melt with too much heat. You also have to be extreamly carefull that a hot chip from your drilling does not cut or melt that string.
Something else to cause you grief is the composit material holding all this stuff together. That plate will self heal. That is, the hole you drill generates heat. When and if you get a hole in it, the heated resin can refill the hole you just drilled. It is like heating a piece of plastic just to the point where it changes shape. It will flow into the hole you just drilled, taking some of the smaller ball bearings and other junk with it, and the hole you just spent the better part of your morning drilling,is no longer there! Now I know what your thinking, I'll just leave the bit in the hole so it can't refill the hole. When it cools, I'll pull it out, and I have my hole! WRONG!!!!! You have just made your extreamly hard drill bit part of your hard plate. The bit has now been glued, so to speak, into the hole you made. You think drilling into a ball bearing is difficult, thy to drill a hole into a drill bit covered in diamond dust! It's not going to happen. Now you start all over with a new hole. Oh, by the way, unless you have access to some very expensive optic equipment, and know how to use it, there is only one place you can drill most locks where it will do you any good, and you just filled that place with something you can't drill thru!! GAME OVER!!!!
Any way, I'm having a good time rambling about my job. I really love this kind of work. I started with my dad when I was about seven years old, and have been doing it ever sense. Almost 46 years now. I don't think I will ever retire. If I don't die while hunting, I'll probably die on a job site somewhere, but I'll have a smile on my face, cause I died doing what I love to do.
Have a good day my friends. I'll be on the boards somewhere.
John
BroncoGlenn
New member
John, it always makes a difference when you are doing something you enjoy doing.
The price between the safes with the glass plates or the ball bearing setups we about the same, in the $1200-$1300 range for a 25 cu. ft. or so safe (about the size of refrigerator) IIRC. They hold about 24 long guns each (12 on each side). Maybe they were more, it's been a long time since I looked at them.
The ball bearing system sounds like it offers greater security. The sales rep I was talking to said that it offers grater resistance to being accidentally broken if the combination lock is hit, vs. the glass plate.
I still think the plasma cutter would just be the way to go for brute force entry. Of course that would require having 220V access near where the work is being performed.
Glenn
The price between the safes with the glass plates or the ball bearing setups we about the same, in the $1200-$1300 range for a 25 cu. ft. or so safe (about the size of refrigerator) IIRC. They hold about 24 long guns each (12 on each side). Maybe they were more, it's been a long time since I looked at them.
The ball bearing system sounds like it offers greater security. The sales rep I was talking to said that it offers grater resistance to being accidentally broken if the combination lock is hit, vs. the glass plate.
I still think the plasma cutter would just be the way to go for brute force entry. Of course that would require having 220V access near where the work is being performed.
Glenn
Safecracker
New member
Glenn,
The Plasma cutter works well but can be very messy. You might burn what ever you are trying to protect.
There is a tool called a Thermal Lance that will make a very small hole in practically anything. I once pushed one thru a piece of railroad track. From top of track to the other side took all of about two seconds. Really neat tool.
I was going to tell you, that almost all safes, with the exception of the real cheap ones, have some kind of hardplate. The glass is in addition to the hardplate. I have never seen anything that had glass and not hardplate. Some of the plate is much harder than others, but it is all hard. Browning uses some of the not so hard plate material. I opened one the other day with an 18 volt DeWalt battery drill and some good carbide tipped bits.
John
The Plasma cutter works well but can be very messy. You might burn what ever you are trying to protect.
There is a tool called a Thermal Lance that will make a very small hole in practically anything. I once pushed one thru a piece of railroad track. From top of track to the other side took all of about two seconds. Really neat tool.
I was going to tell you, that almost all safes, with the exception of the real cheap ones, have some kind of hardplate. The glass is in addition to the hardplate. I have never seen anything that had glass and not hardplate. Some of the plate is much harder than others, but it is all hard. Browning uses some of the not so hard plate material. I opened one the other day with an 18 volt DeWalt battery drill and some good carbide tipped bits.
John
Safecracker
New member
Hey Redfrog,
Ol whatshername is exactly why I keep my guns in a safe. It it was up to her, they would all end up in a bon fire!
John
Ol whatshername is exactly why I keep my guns in a safe. It it was up to her, they would all end up in a bon fire!
John
coyotebuster
New member
Nope, if i ever get one to marry me(or keep her around long enought to) she will not be mean to my guns. they have and wil always come first. If my futur wife ever did soemthing like that she would be gone and i would be po'ed about the guns!