Talking to a gunsmith/friend today and he said he was retiring in November. We ask why and he said,(don't shoot the messenger)he was told that to rebarrel an action, he now needed a manufacturing license. Is this true or have any of you heard this? He is already an FFL and has been building rifles for years. He said his license expired in November and he was hanging it up then..
Gunsmith question
- Thread starter pyscodog
- Start date
I'm not a lawyer and haven't played one on TV, but here it is....I think!??
:
https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download
Regards,
hm
https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download
Regards,
hm
ATF MEMORANDUM This implies a regular license will do but that's why they make phones.
2010-10 - Manufacturing Operations Maybe Performed by Licensed Gunsmiths Under Certain Conditions
Download 2010-10 - Manufacturing Operations Maybe Performed by Licensed Gunsmiths Under Certain Conditions (134.84 KB)
Any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA, provided the firearms are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer.
Document Number:
2010-10
2010-10 - Manufacturing Operations Maybe Performed by Licensed Gunsmiths Under Certain Conditions
Download 2010-10 - Manufacturing Operations Maybe Performed by Licensed Gunsmiths Under Certain Conditions (134.84 KB)
Any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA, provided the firearms are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer-gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer.
Document Number:
2010-10
HogThumper
Member
The issue is not the ATF, nor ATF-controlled. In fact, most ATF examiners tell the gunsmiths not to worry about it. However, State Dept. is who controls the enforcement, and makes no exemption for gunsmiths that don't qualify as "manufacturers" by ATF standards, and the penalties are retroactive, too.
https://modernrifleman.net/2016/07/26/new-itar-guidance-to-squeeze-small-gunsmiths/
There are plans to move this under the Dept. of Commerce and undo the burden on gunsmiths not doing international business, but that has not yet happened.
https://modernrifleman.net/2016/07/26/new-itar-guidance-to-squeeze-small-gunsmiths/
There are plans to move this under the Dept. of Commerce and undo the burden on gunsmiths not doing international business, but that has not yet happened.
HogThumper
Member
I have been watching, and holding off on my FFL paperwork, and there haven't been any policy changes in regards to this.
Better err on the side of safety, get the Class 7 License...then you get to worry about excise taxes, reporting to the State Department with additional serial numbers on the barrels.
Thousands of gunsmiths have turned in their license, and a good number more are counting their days.
If a gunsmith even assembles ONE AR15, he has to have a class 7 license.
Democrats are going to have a hay day with gunsmiths, you can take that to the bank!
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/02/10/itar-changes/
Last edited:
Tracker0721
New member
Yeah I’ve been on the phone calling these people trying to figure out what I can do as an 01 before becoming an 07. My likely take home doing this will only be like 30K in our area starting off IF IM LUCKY which is fine but with my 07 I gotta pay ITARS too and the lady said “associated fees”. That’s a lot. Like a full months income nearly. So here’s what my regional atf supervisor told me-
Gunsmith can rebarrel but can’t change caliber, even with savages.
Gunsmith can modify an existing trigger or “enhance” but can not say they swapped it out. Timneys are manufacturing
Gunsmith can build 1 firearm a year for a client but not every year.
Gunsmith can build anything for themselves so long as it’s not given away or sold
Gunsmith can not thread a barrel
Building is when you modify the firearm significantly by changing components attached to receiver. Such as a barrel change and stock change my supervisor said that would be manufacturing as the firearm could no longer be identified as the same profile. Unless wood stock to wood stock or chassis to chassis but not wood to chassis. He did say that could be spaced out to being 2 different jobs. As one it’s manufacturing. As 2 it’s gunsmithing. I feel like that’s a trap- he mentioned a lot of grey areas.
And according to each and every ATF agent I’ve spoken with the whole having to register with DOD and pay ITARS and be an 07 when gunsmithing others firearms is a giant crock of @:$/)-@. They all said it’s dumb especially because it used to be 250 and be good for 3 years and now it’s the 2500 or whatever and only lasts 1 year.
Lady I talked to said their line of thinking is a rifle needs to be the same from the factory so if it’s ever used in a crime it can be traced back to the owner. So a bullet trace or found weapon starts at the manufacture, they find out where it was sold from there and where it went from there and yadda yadda until it gets to the criminal. Which makes sense. They call Remington saying they have a 22-250 heavy barrel tactical stock with detached magazine serial number 123445677. Remington has nothing on it but that the serial number belongs to a ADL wood stock 308. So now they have to go through and trace a ADL into the rifle it is now. If a manufacture had done the work when they re-entered it into commerce all modifications would’ve been updated to make the gun easier to trace. Her thinking was “a gunsmith is only supposed to repair and enhance firearms, the significant changes are manufacturing a new firearm as compared to its factory description. And looking at it that way makes sense. A handy man can wire a house but that’s illegal because he’s not certified or paying the same as an electrician.
Gunsmith can rebarrel but can’t change caliber, even with savages.
Gunsmith can modify an existing trigger or “enhance” but can not say they swapped it out. Timneys are manufacturing
Gunsmith can build 1 firearm a year for a client but not every year.
Gunsmith can build anything for themselves so long as it’s not given away or sold
Gunsmith can not thread a barrel
Building is when you modify the firearm significantly by changing components attached to receiver. Such as a barrel change and stock change my supervisor said that would be manufacturing as the firearm could no longer be identified as the same profile. Unless wood stock to wood stock or chassis to chassis but not wood to chassis. He did say that could be spaced out to being 2 different jobs. As one it’s manufacturing. As 2 it’s gunsmithing. I feel like that’s a trap- he mentioned a lot of grey areas.
And according to each and every ATF agent I’ve spoken with the whole having to register with DOD and pay ITARS and be an 07 when gunsmithing others firearms is a giant crock of @:$/)-@. They all said it’s dumb especially because it used to be 250 and be good for 3 years and now it’s the 2500 or whatever and only lasts 1 year.
Lady I talked to said their line of thinking is a rifle needs to be the same from the factory so if it’s ever used in a crime it can be traced back to the owner. So a bullet trace or found weapon starts at the manufacture, they find out where it was sold from there and where it went from there and yadda yadda until it gets to the criminal. Which makes sense. They call Remington saying they have a 22-250 heavy barrel tactical stock with detached magazine serial number 123445677. Remington has nothing on it but that the serial number belongs to a ADL wood stock 308. So now they have to go through and trace a ADL into the rifle it is now. If a manufacture had done the work when they re-entered it into commerce all modifications would’ve been updated to make the gun easier to trace. Her thinking was “a gunsmith is only supposed to repair and enhance firearms, the significant changes are manufacturing a new firearm as compared to its factory description. And looking at it that way makes sense. A handy man can wire a house but that’s illegal because he’s not certified or paying the same as an electrician.
SlickerThanSnot
New member
Originally Posted By: Tracker0721Gunsmith can not thread a barrel
is this new?
is this new?
Tracker, that is some good info, thanks for sharing. As Greg, HM and a couple other guys noted, "manufacturing" is different in the eyes of the ATF than gunsmithing, as it is stated in the letters from the ATF. I appreciate it when guys share info that they have gotten directly from the ATF and not interweb myths and legends.
Getting an FFL is not nearly as hard as some guys claim and the ATF is quite helpful with questions that FFL's may. I would encourage guys to get FFL's in order to make things like shipping and receiving of firearms easier. But you wouldn't need a "manufacturing" FFL unless you are actually manufacturing or think that you might, or want the flexibility to begin doing those things.
Unfortunately people like the lady you talked to include their own opinions to what the laws actually say and do. Features like "heavy duty tactical stock" or "heavy barrel" or "detachable magazine" are not included in the serial number of the receiver, nor when it was manufactured as a rifle. The receiver is booked when it is manufactured and it is booked as a receiver. When the receiver goes into manufacturing it is booked out to the manufacturer and then booked in as a rifle, pistol, etc. When it is sold or put into commerce it is booked out to the FFL or to the new owner upon completion of the 4473. We manufacture and sell AR receivers and they go in as "multi" calibers because they can be used for so many different calibers. That has been determined as legal by the ATF. Sadly, this lady is just adding to the myths and legends out there. She doesn't explain how the ATF would get around issues like private party sales in her idea of an investigation. But we run into issues like this all the time. I can't tell you how much time we have spent on the phone with different folks at the ATF trying to get some answers. But that is what happens with an agency as big as the ATF.
Getting an FFL is not nearly as hard as some guys claim and the ATF is quite helpful with questions that FFL's may. I would encourage guys to get FFL's in order to make things like shipping and receiving of firearms easier. But you wouldn't need a "manufacturing" FFL unless you are actually manufacturing or think that you might, or want the flexibility to begin doing those things.
Unfortunately people like the lady you talked to include their own opinions to what the laws actually say and do. Features like "heavy duty tactical stock" or "heavy barrel" or "detachable magazine" are not included in the serial number of the receiver, nor when it was manufactured as a rifle. The receiver is booked when it is manufactured and it is booked as a receiver. When the receiver goes into manufacturing it is booked out to the manufacturer and then booked in as a rifle, pistol, etc. When it is sold or put into commerce it is booked out to the FFL or to the new owner upon completion of the 4473. We manufacture and sell AR receivers and they go in as "multi" calibers because they can be used for so many different calibers. That has been determined as legal by the ATF. Sadly, this lady is just adding to the myths and legends out there. She doesn't explain how the ATF would get around issues like private party sales in her idea of an investigation. But we run into issues like this all the time. I can't tell you how much time we have spent on the phone with different folks at the ATF trying to get some answers. But that is what happens with an agency as big as the ATF.
Tracker0721
New member
Yeah and it seems half my questions have been passed off to “ask this other person”. I’m wanting to open a gunsmithing shop but they need to have set definitions to help determine which FFL I need. I’m at the point of just saying screw it and getting my 01. When I overstep they can come tell me. I know quite a number of guys with 01s assembling ARs and selling them yet I’ve been told twice that it’s manufacturing to do that. One of them has been doing it for 8 years.
Varminterror
Active member
Lots of guys thread barrels and assemble AR’s on Type 1’s, but by the letter, that is supposed to be a Type 7...
But also by the letter, right now all Manufacturers are subject to ITAR, which is a ridiculous expense and a misinterpretation of the spirit of the law. It does cost a lot more to be a Manufacturer in general, but the ITAR requirement is an extra level of ridiculousness for your average rifle builder.
Some guys are getting out, others are applying as Type 1 and not taking in complete rifles. But by the letter, machining work on rifles is manufacturing, and should be a Type 7 - but unfortunately, it’s a crappy time to be a 7.
But also by the letter, right now all Manufacturers are subject to ITAR, which is a ridiculous expense and a misinterpretation of the spirit of the law. It does cost a lot more to be a Manufacturer in general, but the ITAR requirement is an extra level of ridiculousness for your average rifle builder.
Some guys are getting out, others are applying as Type 1 and not taking in complete rifles. But by the letter, machining work on rifles is manufacturing, and should be a Type 7 - but unfortunately, it’s a crappy time to be a 7.
Tracker0721
New member
Yeah the ITARS is the only part of a 7 I don’t like. I get it’s pay to play but that’s what my truck cost!