Hand Guards and Accuracy

Smokin Barrel

Smokin Barrel

Active member
Just wondering what everyones thoughts were about handguards (two-piece vs. free float) affecting accuracy and if you thought there was a definate benefit of the free floated over two-piece. If so, is it worth it? I was considering swapping out a two-piece on a AR I own but can't decide if it is trully beneficial as I have gotten info both ways. Thanks in advance!
 
Our issued M16A2s, M16A4s, and M4s are all 2 pc handguards. Our rifle qualification course has us firing at the 200, 300, & 500 yard line with iron sights (just recently we were allowed to use our ACOGs)...regardless, I fire expert and if I drop even one round at the 500 yard line I'm very....very p*ssed off at myself.

My RRA M4 shoots about 3/4 MOA...so that's plenty enough for me...I'm not exactly sure if the free float will help any, but I don't really see how it could????
 
I'm no expert, but this is my opinion. I was issued an M16A2 with 2 piece handguards and constantly hit man sized targets from 500 yards (iron sites). I'm pretty sure the Marine Corps didn't provide us with match grade bullets and the most expensive brass/ powder/ etc. I'm sure some experts will disagree with the 2 piece and say a free float could provide mathmatical benefits to accuracy. I suppose it all depends on what you are shooting and how far you expect to be shooting. I'd say keep the 2 piece and spend your money on more rounds to shoot! Enjoy your rifle!
 
These guys are probably right with regards to field accuracy. But in my experience, the 2 piece handgaurd caused my point of impact to shift depending on if I was shooting unsupported or using a bipod. The bipod always raised poi significantly (2-3 moa) because the upward pressure is being transferred directly to the barrel. And this was true on both a m4 carbine and a 20" hbar.

This was enough to convince me, I hate a wandering poi, so I installed ff tubes on both.

You should run your own tests and decide if it's important to you.
 
Originally Posted By: tejaschaosI'm no expert, but this is my opinion. I was issued an M16A2 with 2 piece handguards and constantly hit man sized targets from 500 yards (iron sites). I'm pretty sure the Marine Corps didn't provide us with match grade bullets and the most expensive brass/ powder/ etc. I'm sure some experts will disagree with the 2 piece and say a free float could provide mathmatical benefits to accuracy. I suppose it all depends on what you are shooting and how far you expect to be shooting. I'd say keep the 2 piece and spend your money on more rounds to shoot! Enjoy your rifle!
Right on brother! Heck, the rounds we shoot are more than likely Vietnam era bulk ammo, if yall don't believe me, I had various types of ammo and pyro w/ MFG dates from the mid to late 1960's while deployed to Afghanistan...and they worked fine!

Speaking of the man sized targets, they aren't even man sized...they are essentially the size of a man from the waist up and yes, most can hit them fine, with iron sites, from the prone, using only a sling for support, at 500 yds. The only way I botch a shot is from shooter error & that is usually not keeping up perfect with the changing wind here in costal NC. Like tejaschaos said, use your money for either more ammo, quality optics, tac-light, vertical hand grip, laser, or any other item you may want to place onto your weapon. They make a great home defense weapon or ZOMBIE SLAYER
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Thanks guys. Kinda what I figured and I would love to dedicate a bit more time and money just to satisfy my curiousity, BUT I don't think it is worth the $100± at this point...especially since I am not looking JUST to squeeze the last 1/4 inch out of the gun that it MIGHT shoot.
 
204 AR, please don't take what I'm about to say as an insult, trying to boost my own ego, blow smoke up your backside, or me being a know-it-all....it is simply a view point of mine. I am a Primary Marksmanship Instructor in the Marine Corps, it is an additional certification on top of my primary job. One thing that we have to teach our Marines is consistency in the marksmanship fundamentals, muscle relaxation, trigger contol, bone support, natural point of aim, breathing, etc...

In your case, firing from bipod or unsupported, if you change the pressure that you palce onto the rifle it will change the POI. However, if you practice the fundamentals of marksmanship and place the same ammount of pressure, regardless of shooting position, the POI will not change.

If you look at the attached pictures of my rifle you will see my vertical hand grip which has an internal/push button bipod. This is what we have issued to us now and with all of my range time, I notice no difference in my POI. Now, we are not allowed to use the bipod on the qualification course but we use it in our standard training. This training includes close quater firing, various range firing (100 to 600 yards), target transitioning & aqusitioning, etc... My rifle was BZO (Battle Site Zero) at 300 yards on the KD (Known Distance) Qualification Course and has not been changed since.

My zero has held true on ever range, qualification and training, and I have fired in every position from offhand to bipod supported prone. Additionally I have fired the same rifle with the same zero with nothing but my cammies worn and also with all of my issued Battle Rattle (Body Armor, Kevlar Helment, magazine pouches, etc...)

Again brother, I'm in no way trying to insult you or discredit your knowledge or abilities...I'm just offering my input and expirence.
 
My non-free floated .223 AR (DPMS)

DPMSPaint1.jpg


is consistently more accurate than my free floated AR (Armalite)

ArmalitePaint2.jpg


whether shot off the bipod or not... I do know that when shooting off the bipod, the point of impact changes, but that's more to do with the degree of pressure I apply to the front of the rifle and the reaction of the bipod/recoil than any other factor... If I have it resting just on a hard surface, the PoI changes more than if I have the legs of the bipod resting on a piece of old carpet...

The consistency in accuracy, IMHO, is more dependent on the quality/type of the barrel, than the use/non-use of free floating..Both rifles are supposedly equipped with "match grade" barrels...The DPMS is bull, where the Armalite is standard contour..

Even at that, both are shooting under MoA regularly...
 
No offense taken Hoskins, or anyone else. I'm not going to dispute your knowledge or skill or experiences. Where I'm coming from is when I first got into the AR game in the mid 90's, my ar was a standard flat top Colt Hbar. I considered it very accurate for what it was, and shot a lot of pdogs with it. But I noticed right away that I could zero it off of sandbags at the range, like I would do with any of my free floated bolt actions, and then when I went to the pdog towns with a bipod, I would overshoot everything. It didn't take long to discover at the range that it shot in two different places, lower off the the sandbags and higher with the bipod.

Now, maybe shooting positions were different, maybe if I rested it on the bags in exactly the same spot as the bipod every time, etc etc, it would have shot closer to the same spot. IDK, I moved about then and didn't shoot it much at all for several years.

Then a couple years ago got a m4 carbine style AR. I figured it had such a short handguard that the bipod wouldn't make much difference in poi. Wrong, it influenced poi just as much as the older colt. With a fftube that was eliminated on both rifles and my groups got better and more consistant.

Does all that mean I'm an untrained and undisciplined shooter? Probably. Who knows. But it didn't take me long to decide that for the $35 (and up, depending on how much you want to spend) for ff tubes, all mine have them and all my future AR's will wear them. I want as consistant results as I can get, without worrying about where the forearm is rested or not. I also noticed that there is a free float tube that looks like a regular handguard so that it is competition legal. That tells me something also.

Now I won't tell anyone what to do or what not to do, as it doesn't matter to me which way he goes. But I thought I could give another point of view backed by my experience.

Again, no offense taken, not trying to get into a peeing match with anyone.

Russ
 
Hey if it works for you then they aint a thing wrong with it. What it all boils down to, for anyone, is that what works for one may not exactly work for the other. As long as folks who read this understands it. It is good to have different points of view and no one, regardless of EXP, level of knowledge, or profession should take what is said by that person as gospel!

With my profession, training, and rounds put down range...I should be able to pick up any rifle, zero it, & put rounds on target regardless of firing position or situation. I know that not everyone has access to that type of training & it would cost them a whole heck of a lot of $$$ to put as many rounds down range...fortunately I get the ammo for free when I train with the Corps!

You've found what works for you and obviously no need to change what is already working for ya! Good luck & God Speed!
 
Almost 15 years now. Body is breaking down and have been deployed, shot at, IED detonated, rockets hitting Danger Close, etc... more times than I care for. Like I said, the body is breaking down fast but I figure it will last at least 5 more years & can heal after I'm retired! It's been extreme but I have no regrets!!!! Someone has to do what we do and unfortunately there is only a few of us that will actually do the dirty work to protect our country! There is way too many left wing liberal wack jobs that are against us, but will keep thier hippie arses in this country, leech of the freedom we provide, sleep under the blanket of freedom we provide, and then burn the very flag that we have sworn to fight and die for!

Sorry for ranting and hijacking this thread...I get worked up over sh*t like that!!!!
 
Thank you guys for your service and your dedication to our liberties.

Guys like you are the reason we are able to have a civil discussion like this on firearms and the hobbies we love. Right out of high school ('92) I tried to join but a childhood health issue kept me out. I appreciate your sacrifices and I don't take them for granted.

Russ
 
I did it from 95-99. I MEF Camp Pendleton. 2111/ Armorer. I got out and became a firefighter. Thanks for your continued service! Semper Fi, and Kill, Kill, Kill!!!
 
I agree with old turtle about the quality barrel vs free float....i like the free float pesonally.heres why...

I have had accurate shooters,,,free floated them ,,noticed tighter groups.

Same reason that folks "float" a bolt gun in my opinion,,sqeezes out every bit of capability of the rifle.

Plus about every AR you see with a out of box accuracy statement.,,is free floated..................X
 
Originally Posted By: coyotexI agree with old turtle about the quality barrel vs free float....i like the free float pesonally.heres why...

I have had accurate shooters,,,free floated them ,,noticed tighter groups.

Same reason that folks "float" a bolt gun in my opinion,,sqeezes out every bit of capability of the rifle.

Plus about every AR you see with a out of box accuracy statement.,,is free floated..................X
Yeah, if it works then great and it couldn't hurt. My RRA with a Samco 2-pc picanty rail system hand guard shoots 3/4 moa at its worst, so I kept it and invested money elswhere. Not saying that all rifles with 2-pc handguards will be like that, but mine is.
 
One thing noted through likes of Appleseed as well as service type marksman competitions is the key to the accuracy you obtain at those extreme distances, is the type of method you are producing variations in how the barrel harmonics change.

For instance, if you tightly pull the sling in a downward or rearward fashion, are you replacing that force equally back upward or forward? Are you placing the barrel or the block on a hard surface to offer a "support", without offering an equal and opposite force to counter act the support? If not, then the harmonics of the barrel are hindered, and ultimately will affect in some percentage, your accuracy. If you do not believe this, take a gander at some of the "scientists" of ballistics, and check out some of the tests done in this fashion.

Suffice to say, free floating a barrel on an AR15 is not truly free floated, as the block is still touching the barrel (still, engineered to not hinder harmonics essentially in theory), and the barrel nut has the handguard attached as well... These two variables disallow true free floating of the AR15 barrel. That being said, I prefer it, just in case I need more reach for my hand, or need to use more length out of the barrel to place it on something...For a hunting rifle though, most of us will not see much benefit out of the free float for the amount of money we spend on them.
 
Hoskins... God Bless you and your kind. I appreciate the things you do so much it is iimpossible to put into words.
Be safe.
Steve
BTW, get in the five and relax!
 
Originally Posted By: wagspe208Hoskins... God Bless you and your kind. I appreciate the things you do so much it is iimpossible to put into words.
Be safe.
Steve
BTW, get in the five and relax!
Thanks brother & I am...gonna get these 5 done, grow a beard, and try to do nothing but fish, hunt, & whatever else I want to do for the rest of my life!!! Most likely will be getting me some disability pay...coupled with my military retirement pay...hopefully I won't have to work another day in my life...except around the house where the only boss I will have is my wife!!! LOL...at least she will be a boss that cooks for me & is my hunting and fishing buddy! LOL
 
Originally Posted By: Hoskins Right on brother! Heck, the rounds we shoot are more than likely Vietnam era bulk ammo, if yall don't believe me, I had various types of ammo and pyro w/ MFG dates from the mid to late 1960's while deployed to Afghanistan...and they worked fine!


True that Devil Dog, my primary MOS was 0431 but I was a 2311 Ammo Tech as a secondary and I have seen some old lot numbers for sure. As for the handguards...free floats are nice but not near as important as trigger and barrel...my two cents anyway.


PS: I was a DI at PI from 94-96...it seems that every time we went to the rifle range it would go by so quick for they always had us do extra stuff since all the Hats are needed.....but I tried to spend every night with my recruits and that was the only time I ever took my cover off and act like I was human. I wanted them to understand the importance of sight alignment, sight picture, breathing, follow through, ect. I'd post my fire watches at both ends of the squad bay and for those recruits that were struggling, we would work at it all night. I had a few Platoons that had 100% qual on qual day. Sure makes it easier on us Hats...that's for sure.

Semper Fi

 
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