SlickerThanSnot
New member
we are on the same page more than you think.
Harleys and Open Carry
- Thread starter pyscodog
- Start date
Originally Posted By: The Famous GrouseOriginally Posted By: Mike B
I'm split on this Grouse, and I'm gonna pick a lil bit of a fight with you on it. I have seen city, anti-gunner's give the same argument for having a gun rack in a pickup, and or even for hunting, or wearing camo in public..."Oh, aren't you just the big bad gun-wielding/hunting/killing/slaying man in these parts..." blah, blah........
I submit that 70+ years of the Socialistic/anti-gun/liberal/progressive/whatever-the-coolest-name-of-the-moment is has brought even us everyday gun guys to the point of thinking that the sight of a gun in public is bad.
Maybe it's just me, but I still see a gun displayed in public as no more a threat than any of a million other things around it at any particular moment. The human carrying it can just as easily kill me with a rock, or pocketknife, or..... I submit that we have been led to fear an inanimate object. I do believe that most shootings occur with a concealed weapon, not an open carried one.
Mike, I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. I'm just applying a common sense test. While you and I and the real hunters and sportsmen out there don't see gun = threat, there is a large body of people out there who DO.
While a lot of people get all red-assed about it, public perception DOES matter when it comes to preserving our gun rights. The other side is constantly portraying gun owners as dangerous Rambo-wannabies with itchy trigger fingers and no common sense. Having a bunch of "Open Carry" idiots taking their ARs for a stroll at Walmart does little to counter this stereotype.
As I said in another thread about this subject, I don't see being an openly provocative jackass as a good way to advance our agenda. There's a big difference between having a gun rack in a pickup truck or a Leatherman on you belt and walking into a restaurant with your AK47 or pulling up to a gas station with a couple of pistols strapped to your motorcycle.
Again, like my dad always used to tell us as kids, just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotthings are the way they are today because the majority started thinking like grouse.
I'm glad that the majority of people agree with me, behaving like a jackass is a bad idea. BTW, on the subject of open carry, there's another group that agrees with me as well: The NRA.
Now why don't you run off and meet your Open Carry buddies down at Chipotle? Is that you on the left?
Grouse
Having grown up w/firearms in the house, I, like Mike (and many others), do not feel threatened in the least by the sight of a firearm in public. (Ummm, unless they are carried by the pair pictured above.
)
Having said that, I see no advantage in our struggle to maintain our 2nd Amendment rights to openly stroll down the street with what the general, non gun-owning public has been conditioned to refer to as "assault" rifles. This just is not good PR!
If you think the public has not been conditioned to fear firearms, there was recently even a letter to the editor in our local newspaper complaining that police officers often go into restaurants in groups at lunch time openly carrying firearms!. Feature that! Sheeeshh!
The way I see it is that, as law abiding gun owners, we have made tremendous strides in recent years, in spite of the most anti-gun administration currently in power, by convincing the non-gun owners that we are responsible citizens and that they, too, benefit from others being armed. Those two clowns certainly do not contribute to that image.
Well stated, Grouse.
Regards,
hm
I'm split on this Grouse, and I'm gonna pick a lil bit of a fight with you on it. I have seen city, anti-gunner's give the same argument for having a gun rack in a pickup, and or even for hunting, or wearing camo in public..."Oh, aren't you just the big bad gun-wielding/hunting/killing/slaying man in these parts..." blah, blah........
I submit that 70+ years of the Socialistic/anti-gun/liberal/progressive/whatever-the-coolest-name-of-the-moment is has brought even us everyday gun guys to the point of thinking that the sight of a gun in public is bad.
Maybe it's just me, but I still see a gun displayed in public as no more a threat than any of a million other things around it at any particular moment. The human carrying it can just as easily kill me with a rock, or pocketknife, or..... I submit that we have been led to fear an inanimate object. I do believe that most shootings occur with a concealed weapon, not an open carried one.
Mike, I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. I'm just applying a common sense test. While you and I and the real hunters and sportsmen out there don't see gun = threat, there is a large body of people out there who DO.
While a lot of people get all red-assed about it, public perception DOES matter when it comes to preserving our gun rights. The other side is constantly portraying gun owners as dangerous Rambo-wannabies with itchy trigger fingers and no common sense. Having a bunch of "Open Carry" idiots taking their ARs for a stroll at Walmart does little to counter this stereotype.
As I said in another thread about this subject, I don't see being an openly provocative jackass as a good way to advance our agenda. There's a big difference between having a gun rack in a pickup truck or a Leatherman on you belt and walking into a restaurant with your AK47 or pulling up to a gas station with a couple of pistols strapped to your motorcycle.
Again, like my dad always used to tell us as kids, just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotthings are the way they are today because the majority started thinking like grouse.
I'm glad that the majority of people agree with me, behaving like a jackass is a bad idea. BTW, on the subject of open carry, there's another group that agrees with me as well: The NRA.
Now why don't you run off and meet your Open Carry buddies down at Chipotle? Is that you on the left?
Grouse
Having grown up w/firearms in the house, I, like Mike (and many others), do not feel threatened in the least by the sight of a firearm in public. (Ummm, unless they are carried by the pair pictured above.
Having said that, I see no advantage in our struggle to maintain our 2nd Amendment rights to openly stroll down the street with what the general, non gun-owning public has been conditioned to refer to as "assault" rifles. This just is not good PR!
If you think the public has not been conditioned to fear firearms, there was recently even a letter to the editor in our local newspaper complaining that police officers often go into restaurants in groups at lunch time openly carrying firearms!. Feature that! Sheeeshh!
The way I see it is that, as law abiding gun owners, we have made tremendous strides in recent years, in spite of the most anti-gun administration currently in power, by convincing the non-gun owners that we are responsible citizens and that they, too, benefit from others being armed. Those two clowns certainly do not contribute to that image.
Well stated, Grouse.
Regards,
hm
NdIndy
New member
If they switched places they would be the most armed number "10" I've ever seen.
I carried open on duty for a long time, having an exposed pistol is a lot of responsibility for someone (imo) assuming they know how to protect it. It's a massive liability for those that don't.
For personal life I prefer concealed. If a bg decides he wants to mug me, he's going to mug me. Concealed I have a surprise, open I probably have a round in the back of my head first.
I carried open on duty for a long time, having an exposed pistol is a lot of responsibility for someone (imo) assuming they know how to protect it. It's a massive liability for those that don't.
For personal life I prefer concealed. If a bg decides he wants to mug me, he's going to mug me. Concealed I have a surprise, open I probably have a round in the back of my head first.
Originally Posted By: hm1996Originally Posted By: The Famous GrouseOriginally Posted By: Mike B
I'm split on this Grouse, and I'm gonna pick a lil bit of a fight with you on it. I have seen city, anti-gunner's give the same argument for having a gun rack in a pickup, and or even for hunting, or wearing camo in public..."Oh, aren't you just the big bad gun-wielding/hunting/killing/slaying man in these parts..." blah, blah........
I submit that 70+ years of the Socialistic/anti-gun/liberal/progressive/whatever-the-coolest-name-of-the-moment is has brought even us everyday gun guys to the point of thinking that the sight of a gun in public is bad.
Maybe it's just me, but I still see a gun displayed in public as no more a threat than any of a million other things around it at any particular moment. The human carrying it can just as easily kill me with a rock, or pocketknife, or..... I submit that we have been led to fear an inanimate object. I do believe that most shootings occur with a concealed weapon, not an open carried one.
Mike, I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. I'm just applying a common sense test. While you and I and the real hunters and sportsmen out there don't see gun = threat, there is a large body of people out there who DO.
While a lot of people get all red-assed about it, public perception DOES matter when it comes to preserving our gun rights. The other side is constantly portraying gun owners as dangerous Rambo-wannabies with itchy trigger fingers and no common sense. Having a bunch of "Open Carry" idiots taking their ARs for a stroll at Walmart does little to counter this stereotype.
As I said in another thread about this subject, I don't see being an openly provocative jackass as a good way to advance our agenda. There's a big difference between having a gun rack in a pickup truck or a Leatherman on you belt and walking into a restaurant with your AK47 or pulling up to a gas station with a couple of pistols strapped to your motorcycle.
Again, like my dad always used to tell us as kids, just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotthings are the way they are today because the majority started thinking like grouse.
I'm glad that the majority of people agree with me, behaving like a jackass is a bad idea. BTW, on the subject of open carry, there's another group that agrees with me as well: The NRA.
Now why don't you run off and meet your Open Carry buddies down at Chipotle? Is that you on the left?
Grouse
Having grown up w/firearms in the house, I, like Mike (and many others), do not feel threatened in the least by the sight of a firearm in public. (Ummm, unless they are carried by the pair pictured above.
)
Having said that, I see no advantage in our struggle to maintain our 2nd Amendment rights to openly stroll down the street with what the general, non gun-owning public has been conditioned to refer to as "assault" rifles. This just is not good PR!
If you think the public has not been conditioned to fear firearms, there was recently even a letter to the editor in our local newspaper complaining that police officers often go into restaurants in groups at lunch time openly carrying firearms!. Feature that! Sheeeshh!
The way I see it is that, as law abiding gun owners, we have made tremendous strides in recent years, in spite of the most anti-gun administration currently in power, by convincing the non-gun owners that we are responsible citizens and that they, too, benefit from others being armed. Those two clowns certainly do not contribute to that image.
Well stated, Grouse.
Regards,
hm
I don't disagree with you altogether on this matter either, Grouse - I was just provoking debate, and I still find myself split on it. That said I do think we have all been conditioned slowly to NOT EXCEPT firearms. Those two in the pix - yeah, I'd be keeping an eye on them - at least in condition orange, but their driving techniques DO stand a much better chance of killing me an mine than those guns, statistically speaking. And if I were to be shot in a felonious manner, I do stand a MUCH higher chance of being shot by someone with a concealed firearm (till they draw it out) than that of an openly carried one, statistically speaking. The Leatherman tool thing may not have been the best analogy, but they do make me let it at the door of the courthouse! Why?? Does open carry really constitute "threatening" or anything "Rambo"? Especially to guys like us? Should it?? I do agree that just becuz you can do something, doesn't mean you should for many possible reasons. But, is this a case where we have left ourselves go too far?? Is a person openly carrying more likely to shoot someone than one carrying concealed, permitted or not?? As hm stated above, I personally do NOT equate someone openly carrying to a jackass! Why can police openly carry in a "free" country with a 2A but not the "free" citizens? Should I be afraid of hunters openly carrying on public lands with other people driving by?? Does open carry really constitute irresponsibility?
Chupa, don't know where you Texas boys mount your gun racks, but we always used to put them in the rear window where we could get at the guns?!?!?! LOL!!
I'm split on this Grouse, and I'm gonna pick a lil bit of a fight with you on it. I have seen city, anti-gunner's give the same argument for having a gun rack in a pickup, and or even for hunting, or wearing camo in public..."Oh, aren't you just the big bad gun-wielding/hunting/killing/slaying man in these parts..." blah, blah........
I submit that 70+ years of the Socialistic/anti-gun/liberal/progressive/whatever-the-coolest-name-of-the-moment is has brought even us everyday gun guys to the point of thinking that the sight of a gun in public is bad.
Maybe it's just me, but I still see a gun displayed in public as no more a threat than any of a million other things around it at any particular moment. The human carrying it can just as easily kill me with a rock, or pocketknife, or..... I submit that we have been led to fear an inanimate object. I do believe that most shootings occur with a concealed weapon, not an open carried one.
Mike, I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. I'm just applying a common sense test. While you and I and the real hunters and sportsmen out there don't see gun = threat, there is a large body of people out there who DO.
While a lot of people get all red-assed about it, public perception DOES matter when it comes to preserving our gun rights. The other side is constantly portraying gun owners as dangerous Rambo-wannabies with itchy trigger fingers and no common sense. Having a bunch of "Open Carry" idiots taking their ARs for a stroll at Walmart does little to counter this stereotype.
As I said in another thread about this subject, I don't see being an openly provocative jackass as a good way to advance our agenda. There's a big difference between having a gun rack in a pickup truck or a Leatherman on you belt and walking into a restaurant with your AK47 or pulling up to a gas station with a couple of pistols strapped to your motorcycle.
Again, like my dad always used to tell us as kids, just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotthings are the way they are today because the majority started thinking like grouse.
I'm glad that the majority of people agree with me, behaving like a jackass is a bad idea. BTW, on the subject of open carry, there's another group that agrees with me as well: The NRA.
Now why don't you run off and meet your Open Carry buddies down at Chipotle? Is that you on the left?
Grouse
Having grown up w/firearms in the house, I, like Mike (and many others), do not feel threatened in the least by the sight of a firearm in public. (Ummm, unless they are carried by the pair pictured above.
Having said that, I see no advantage in our struggle to maintain our 2nd Amendment rights to openly stroll down the street with what the general, non gun-owning public has been conditioned to refer to as "assault" rifles. This just is not good PR!
If you think the public has not been conditioned to fear firearms, there was recently even a letter to the editor in our local newspaper complaining that police officers often go into restaurants in groups at lunch time openly carrying firearms!. Feature that! Sheeeshh!
The way I see it is that, as law abiding gun owners, we have made tremendous strides in recent years, in spite of the most anti-gun administration currently in power, by convincing the non-gun owners that we are responsible citizens and that they, too, benefit from others being armed. Those two clowns certainly do not contribute to that image.
Well stated, Grouse.
Regards,
hm
I don't disagree with you altogether on this matter either, Grouse - I was just provoking debate, and I still find myself split on it. That said I do think we have all been conditioned slowly to NOT EXCEPT firearms. Those two in the pix - yeah, I'd be keeping an eye on them - at least in condition orange, but their driving techniques DO stand a much better chance of killing me an mine than those guns, statistically speaking. And if I were to be shot in a felonious manner, I do stand a MUCH higher chance of being shot by someone with a concealed firearm (till they draw it out) than that of an openly carried one, statistically speaking. The Leatherman tool thing may not have been the best analogy, but they do make me let it at the door of the courthouse! Why?? Does open carry really constitute "threatening" or anything "Rambo"? Especially to guys like us? Should it?? I do agree that just becuz you can do something, doesn't mean you should for many possible reasons. But, is this a case where we have left ourselves go too far?? Is a person openly carrying more likely to shoot someone than one carrying concealed, permitted or not?? As hm stated above, I personally do NOT equate someone openly carrying to a jackass! Why can police openly carry in a "free" country with a 2A but not the "free" citizens? Should I be afraid of hunters openly carrying on public lands with other people driving by?? Does open carry really constitute irresponsibility?
Chupa, don't know where you Texas boys mount your gun racks, but we always used to put them in the rear window where we could get at the guns?!?!?! LOL!!
Chupathingy
New member
Behind the seat in a crew cab pickup.
Chupa
Chupa
The Famous Grouse
New member
Originally Posted By: Mike B
I don't disagree with you altogether on this matter either, Grouse - I was just provoking debate, and I still find myself split on it. That said I do think we have all been conditioned slowly to NOT EXCEPT firearms.
Does open carry really constitute "threatening" or anything "Rambo"? Especially to guys like us? Should it?? I do agree that just becuz you can do something, doesn't mean you should for many possible reasons. But, is this a case where we have left ourselves go too far?? Is a person openly carrying more likely to shoot someone than one carrying concealed, permitted or not?? As hm stated above, I personally do NOT equate someone openly carrying to a jackass! Why can police openly carry in a "free" country with a 2A but not the "free" citizens? Should I be afraid of hunters openly carrying on public lands with other people driving by?? Does open carry really constitute irresponsibility?
Have we REALLY been conditioned not to accept firearms? I see what you're saying, but I'm old enough to remember a time when firearms in a gun rack wouldn't raise an eyebrow.
However! Nobody back in the day ever brought their deer rifle into the local grocery store just because it was "their right". People understood that there was a time and a place for guns, and taking them into the local steakhouse at the dinner hour was neither the time nor the place.
Have we let it go to far? Maybe. But let me answer that question with another question: Is getting in people's faces by openly taking guns into places like restaurants, movie theaters, and discount stores where they've never been seen before a good way to show people that they have nothing to fear from guns or gun owners?
I think all of us with common sense would agree that that's not a good way to go about our business. As others have pointed out, there's no self defense advantage to open carry and let's be honest, many of these new open carry fanboys are just doing it to be attention whores.
Like it or not, gun owners can't afford to be antagonistic when it comes to the non-gun-owning general public.
Also, I think there's a little "sky is falling" aspect to guns in America. I'm not saying everything is rose-colored, but progress IS being made.
Shooting sports haven't see the current levels of participation for decades. In our local school (in an URBAN area, no less) there is an archery program in elementary school that gets more participants than the boys football program gets. Adding to the "never saw that coming" aspect is that girls outnumber boys in the program by a significant margin. Initially, the instructors separated the girls/boys during competitions, but that proved to be unnecessary since the boys have no advantage and the last 3 league champions have been girls.
In Minnesota the fastest-growing high school sport over the last 5 years has been...wait for it...trap and skeet. The popularity has grown so quickly that it will likely soon become a fully sanctioned league sport just like football. There is already talk of expanding it to smallbore rifle. This would have been unheard of even 10 years ago and all of this comes in the current political climate.
Grouse
I don't disagree with you altogether on this matter either, Grouse - I was just provoking debate, and I still find myself split on it. That said I do think we have all been conditioned slowly to NOT EXCEPT firearms.
Does open carry really constitute "threatening" or anything "Rambo"? Especially to guys like us? Should it?? I do agree that just becuz you can do something, doesn't mean you should for many possible reasons. But, is this a case where we have left ourselves go too far?? Is a person openly carrying more likely to shoot someone than one carrying concealed, permitted or not?? As hm stated above, I personally do NOT equate someone openly carrying to a jackass! Why can police openly carry in a "free" country with a 2A but not the "free" citizens? Should I be afraid of hunters openly carrying on public lands with other people driving by?? Does open carry really constitute irresponsibility?
Have we REALLY been conditioned not to accept firearms? I see what you're saying, but I'm old enough to remember a time when firearms in a gun rack wouldn't raise an eyebrow.
However! Nobody back in the day ever brought their deer rifle into the local grocery store just because it was "their right". People understood that there was a time and a place for guns, and taking them into the local steakhouse at the dinner hour was neither the time nor the place.
Have we let it go to far? Maybe. But let me answer that question with another question: Is getting in people's faces by openly taking guns into places like restaurants, movie theaters, and discount stores where they've never been seen before a good way to show people that they have nothing to fear from guns or gun owners?
I think all of us with common sense would agree that that's not a good way to go about our business. As others have pointed out, there's no self defense advantage to open carry and let's be honest, many of these new open carry fanboys are just doing it to be attention whores.
Like it or not, gun owners can't afford to be antagonistic when it comes to the non-gun-owning general public.
Also, I think there's a little "sky is falling" aspect to guns in America. I'm not saying everything is rose-colored, but progress IS being made.
Shooting sports haven't see the current levels of participation for decades. In our local school (in an URBAN area, no less) there is an archery program in elementary school that gets more participants than the boys football program gets. Adding to the "never saw that coming" aspect is that girls outnumber boys in the program by a significant margin. Initially, the instructors separated the girls/boys during competitions, but that proved to be unnecessary since the boys have no advantage and the last 3 league champions have been girls.
In Minnesota the fastest-growing high school sport over the last 5 years has been...wait for it...trap and skeet. The popularity has grown so quickly that it will likely soon become a fully sanctioned league sport just like football. There is already talk of expanding it to smallbore rifle. This would have been unheard of even 10 years ago and all of this comes in the current political climate.
Grouse
Grouse, I'll agree with a lot of your last post, but I will say that in the rural area that I grew up in, it was nothing to have firearms in back window pickup racks at grocery stores, diners, restaurants, gas stations and my high school. Also. a guy walking into a local diner during hunting season with a revolver on his hip isn't a big deal today. And the biggest crime was speeding cuz DUI and underage drinking hadn't been invented yet (as a law) there. It has been publicly, and purposefully, demonized since to bring us to where we are today.
I personally carry concealed frequently, but am not overly worried about those that carry openly - they are stating their attitude out where all can see it. I agree that some are attention whores - so are many in all walks of life. I do think that thru all of this, many non-firearms owners are learning that firearms are not to be feared themselves and do have a solid, useful purpose to the common man in this day and age. I think, as with several examples that you stated above, that we are winning the PR war becuz we are right, and becuz we are being forced to bring our views out publicly while backing them up with facts. I do love to see the kids involved as you stated above as they are our futures.
I personally carry concealed frequently, but am not overly worried about those that carry openly - they are stating their attitude out where all can see it. I agree that some are attention whores - so are many in all walks of life. I do think that thru all of this, many non-firearms owners are learning that firearms are not to be feared themselves and do have a solid, useful purpose to the common man in this day and age. I think, as with several examples that you stated above, that we are winning the PR war becuz we are right, and becuz we are being forced to bring our views out publicly while backing them up with facts. I do love to see the kids involved as you stated above as they are our futures.
Wlscott
New member
Originally Posted By: FurhunterWhat a load a crap if you think a cager sees your gun before he sees you. I'm sure that works well for you when he's about to make that dreaded left hand turn infront of you as your coming down the road. Most people driving cars probably don't take the time to look hard enough while you pass by to see a holster on your hip. The very few that do might shake in their shoes and give you more room but what about the high percentage of others that can't see it? The ones on the other side! From the back? Oncoming?
If you want to be seen on a motorcycle wear bright colored clothing, a reflective vest for instance. Ride a bright colored bike. Ride with your headlight on. Use proper lane position in traffic, don't hang out in someone's blind spot. Put yourself in the position to be easily seen. I don't think packing a gun on your side is covered as a topic in the motorcycle safety course. It might help if its in a safety orange holster though.
I'm with the Grouse on this one, its for attention not much else. Just like those get back whips these tough guys like to hang off their brake and clutch levers now. Whadda joke.
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotthings are the way they are today because the majority started thinking like grouse.
The world is the way it is. Its not that way because some think that hanging a gun off their side for all to see is a good idea and worth the extra attention it brings.
I think you take sh!t on the internet way to seriously buddy. I never said it was fool proof. Just seems like when someone is passing me in the right lane and my jacket is up, they see that pistol. I have no scientific data to back it up. Just a feeling. You can get riled up and call it a load of crap if you want. I don't really give a sh!t.
I do still watch constantly for idiots that aren't watching for me. Cause yeah...it's not perfect. Neither is your bright colored clothing, or bright colored bike idea. By the way...my headlight is always on. You can't turn it off.
Again....the tactical advantage is always going to go to the guy carrying concealed (assuming he practices drawing from concealment on at least a semi-regular basis). But I don't have a problem with people who carry open for the right reasons. It does at the very least spark discussion about guns. And if the guy isn't just looking for attention, and he knows what he's talking about, he can help ease the general fear of guns that most "fence sitters" have of them from watching the news.
If you want to be seen on a motorcycle wear bright colored clothing, a reflective vest for instance. Ride a bright colored bike. Ride with your headlight on. Use proper lane position in traffic, don't hang out in someone's blind spot. Put yourself in the position to be easily seen. I don't think packing a gun on your side is covered as a topic in the motorcycle safety course. It might help if its in a safety orange holster though.
I'm with the Grouse on this one, its for attention not much else. Just like those get back whips these tough guys like to hang off their brake and clutch levers now. Whadda joke.
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotthings are the way they are today because the majority started thinking like grouse.
The world is the way it is. Its not that way because some think that hanging a gun off their side for all to see is a good idea and worth the extra attention it brings.
I think you take sh!t on the internet way to seriously buddy. I never said it was fool proof. Just seems like when someone is passing me in the right lane and my jacket is up, they see that pistol. I have no scientific data to back it up. Just a feeling. You can get riled up and call it a load of crap if you want. I don't really give a sh!t.
I do still watch constantly for idiots that aren't watching for me. Cause yeah...it's not perfect. Neither is your bright colored clothing, or bright colored bike idea. By the way...my headlight is always on. You can't turn it off.
Again....the tactical advantage is always going to go to the guy carrying concealed (assuming he practices drawing from concealment on at least a semi-regular basis). But I don't have a problem with people who carry open for the right reasons. It does at the very least spark discussion about guns. And if the guy isn't just looking for attention, and he knows what he's talking about, he can help ease the general fear of guns that most "fence sitters" have of them from watching the news.
Furhunter
New member
Originally Posted By: Wlscott
I think you take sh!t on the internet way to seriously buddy. I never said it was fool proof. Just seems like when someone is passing me in the right lane and my jacket is up, they see that pistol. I have no scientific data to back it up. Just a feeling. You can get riled up and call it a load of crap if you want. I don't really give a sh!t.
I do still watch constantly for idiots that aren't watching for me. Cause yeah...it's not perfect. Neither is your bright colored clothing, or bright colored bike idea. By the way...my headlight is always on. You can't turn it off.
Again....the tactical advantage is always going to go to the guy carrying concealed (assuming he practices drawing from concealment on at least a semi-regular basis). But I don't have a problem with people who carry open for the right reasons. It does at the very least spark discussion about guns. And if the guy isn't just looking for attention, and he knows what he's talking about, he can help ease the general fear of guns that most "fence sitters" have of them from watching the news.
So you actually carry concealed because of the jacket.. Now even less people than I first thought can see it.
Let's assume your last sentence is true, how does that play in when those cagers see a gun on your side and they "give you more room" Is that easing the general fear of guns for a fence sitter in the car? Or... could that lean more towards making the driver of the car feel intimidated?
I think you take sh!t on the internet way to seriously buddy. I never said it was fool proof. Just seems like when someone is passing me in the right lane and my jacket is up, they see that pistol. I have no scientific data to back it up. Just a feeling. You can get riled up and call it a load of crap if you want. I don't really give a sh!t.
I do still watch constantly for idiots that aren't watching for me. Cause yeah...it's not perfect. Neither is your bright colored clothing, or bright colored bike idea. By the way...my headlight is always on. You can't turn it off.
Again....the tactical advantage is always going to go to the guy carrying concealed (assuming he practices drawing from concealment on at least a semi-regular basis). But I don't have a problem with people who carry open for the right reasons. It does at the very least spark discussion about guns. And if the guy isn't just looking for attention, and he knows what he's talking about, he can help ease the general fear of guns that most "fence sitters" have of them from watching the news.
So you actually carry concealed because of the jacket.. Now even less people than I first thought can see it.
Let's assume your last sentence is true, how does that play in when those cagers see a gun on your side and they "give you more room" Is that easing the general fear of guns for a fence sitter in the car? Or... could that lean more towards making the driver of the car feel intimidated?
spotstalkshoot
Well-known member
Grouse, in Mn concealed carry was and is still controversial. So yes the public has been told to fear firearms ( handguns especially).
Wlscott
New member
Originally Posted By: FurhunterOriginally Posted By: Wlscott
I think you take sh!t on the internet way to seriously buddy. I never said it was fool proof. Just seems like when someone is passing me in the right lane and my jacket is up, they see that pistol. I have no scientific data to back it up. Just a feeling. You can get riled up and call it a load of crap if you want. I don't really give a sh!t.
I do still watch constantly for idiots that aren't watching for me. Cause yeah...it's not perfect. Neither is your bright colored clothing, or bright colored bike idea. By the way...my headlight is always on. You can't turn it off.
Again....the tactical advantage is always going to go to the guy carrying concealed (assuming he practices drawing from concealment on at least a semi-regular basis). But I don't have a problem with people who carry open for the right reasons. It does at the very least spark discussion about guns. And if the guy isn't just looking for attention, and he knows what he's talking about, he can help ease the general fear of guns that most "fence sitters" have of them from watching the news.
So you actually carry concealed because of the jacket.. Now even less people than I first thought can see it.
Let's assume your last sentence is true, how does that play in when those cagers see a gun on your side and they "give you more room" Is that easing the general fear of guns for a fence sitter in the car? Or... could that lean more towards making the driver of the car feel intimidated?
Well I don't know if it intimidates him/her or not. But at that point I don't have any control over it. I'm on a bike. Honestly, the comment I made about them seeing the gun before the bike was made more than just a little tongue in cheek. And I think you're keying on that, and that's taking away from the real issue.
All I'm saying is I support the right for people to carry open. There are merits to it. Not many compared to concealed, but there are some. Believe me...I've had this discussion with my buddy back home over and over. Trying to get him to see the light. But he likes open carry. Faster draw, and there is a slight deterrent factor there. Not many merits, but I still support his right to carry it open. Now some of these idiots carrying long guns into Walmart...that's just ridiculous.
To me it almost seems like you're saying that we need to "hide" our way of life so someone doesn't take it away from us. Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany to me....Jews hiding in the attic kinda thing. I just don't think that responsible gun owners should HAVE to carry concealed. They shouldn't HAVE to hide it in the hopes that they won't offend someone.
I think you take sh!t on the internet way to seriously buddy. I never said it was fool proof. Just seems like when someone is passing me in the right lane and my jacket is up, they see that pistol. I have no scientific data to back it up. Just a feeling. You can get riled up and call it a load of crap if you want. I don't really give a sh!t.
I do still watch constantly for idiots that aren't watching for me. Cause yeah...it's not perfect. Neither is your bright colored clothing, or bright colored bike idea. By the way...my headlight is always on. You can't turn it off.
Again....the tactical advantage is always going to go to the guy carrying concealed (assuming he practices drawing from concealment on at least a semi-regular basis). But I don't have a problem with people who carry open for the right reasons. It does at the very least spark discussion about guns. And if the guy isn't just looking for attention, and he knows what he's talking about, he can help ease the general fear of guns that most "fence sitters" have of them from watching the news.
So you actually carry concealed because of the jacket.. Now even less people than I first thought can see it.
Let's assume your last sentence is true, how does that play in when those cagers see a gun on your side and they "give you more room" Is that easing the general fear of guns for a fence sitter in the car? Or... could that lean more towards making the driver of the car feel intimidated?
Well I don't know if it intimidates him/her or not. But at that point I don't have any control over it. I'm on a bike. Honestly, the comment I made about them seeing the gun before the bike was made more than just a little tongue in cheek. And I think you're keying on that, and that's taking away from the real issue.
All I'm saying is I support the right for people to carry open. There are merits to it. Not many compared to concealed, but there are some. Believe me...I've had this discussion with my buddy back home over and over. Trying to get him to see the light. But he likes open carry. Faster draw, and there is a slight deterrent factor there. Not many merits, but I still support his right to carry it open. Now some of these idiots carrying long guns into Walmart...that's just ridiculous.
To me it almost seems like you're saying that we need to "hide" our way of life so someone doesn't take it away from us. Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany to me....Jews hiding in the attic kinda thing. I just don't think that responsible gun owners should HAVE to carry concealed. They shouldn't HAVE to hide it in the hopes that they won't offend someone.
Furhunter
New member
Originally Posted By: Wlscott
To me it almost seems like you're saying that we need to "hide" our way of life so someone doesn't take it away from us. Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany to me....Jews hiding in the attic kinda thing. I just don't think that responsible gun owners should HAVE to carry concealed. They shouldn't HAVE to hide it in the hopes that they won't offend someone.
I'm not saying we need to hide what we stand for but have you ever considered sticking it in people's faces may garner more resistance than support?
Our battles as gun owners don't always take place with those that want to ban them. There are those who could be swayed either way. Its those we must find a common ground with and bring them to our side because the anti's would never think of doing so.. Problem is, its tough to garner that extra support from the "undecideds" when your packing a gun on your side and an attitude that doesnt give a chit about what someone thinks of it when they see it. I just don't think that's how we draw support for our "way of life"
To me it almost seems like you're saying that we need to "hide" our way of life so someone doesn't take it away from us. Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany to me....Jews hiding in the attic kinda thing. I just don't think that responsible gun owners should HAVE to carry concealed. They shouldn't HAVE to hide it in the hopes that they won't offend someone.
I'm not saying we need to hide what we stand for but have you ever considered sticking it in people's faces may garner more resistance than support?
Our battles as gun owners don't always take place with those that want to ban them. There are those who could be swayed either way. Its those we must find a common ground with and bring them to our side because the anti's would never think of doing so.. Problem is, its tough to garner that extra support from the "undecideds" when your packing a gun on your side and an attitude that doesnt give a chit about what someone thinks of it when they see it. I just don't think that's how we draw support for our "way of life"
Originally Posted By: HidalgoMy thoughts are that I don't want anyone to know I'm armed. A criminal is going to shoot the guy with the obvious gun first because he thinks they're off-duty LEO.
ONE example of this ever happening, please. I've heard this argument for over 20 years but so far I haven't seen a single instance of it ever being documented as having actually happening.
ONE example of this ever happening, please. I've heard this argument for over 20 years but so far I haven't seen a single instance of it ever being documented as having actually happening.
bushy
New member
Originally Posted By: Stu FarishOriginally Posted By: HidalgoMy thoughts are that I don't want anyone to know I'm armed. A criminal is going to shoot the guy with the obvious gun first because he thinks they're off-duty LEO.
ONE example of this ever happening, please. I've heard this argument for over 20 years but so far I haven't seen a single instance of it ever being documented as having actually happening.
exactly.
ONE example of this ever happening, please. I've heard this argument for over 20 years but so far I haven't seen a single instance of it ever being documented as having actually happening.
exactly.
Wlscott
New member
Originally Posted By: FurhunterOriginally Posted By: Wlscott
To me it almost seems like you're saying that we need to "hide" our way of life so someone doesn't take it away from us. Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany to me....Jews hiding in the attic kinda thing. I just don't think that responsible gun owners should HAVE to carry concealed. They shouldn't HAVE to hide it in the hopes that they won't offend someone.
I'm not saying we need to hide what we stand for but have you ever considered sticking it in people's faces may garner more resistance than support?
Our battles as gun owners don't always take place with those that want to ban them. There are those who could be swayed either way. Its those we must find a common ground with and bring them to our side because the anti's would never think of doing so.. Problem is, its tough to garner that extra support from the "undecideds" when your packing a gun on your side and an attitude that doesnt give a chit about what someone thinks of it when they see it. I just don't think that's how we draw support for our "way of life"
That's the key in bold. Who said anything in this discussion about poor attitude? I know a couple of people who carry open (like I mentioned). None of them have a "bad attitude" about it. One in particular likes open carry because as he said....it fosters discussion about guns and being armed. Allows him to educate people on guns, and their rights to defend themselves.
I'm not saying there aren't people out there that carry open just for the attention. There definitely are. But the problem there isn't with the open carry of the gun. It's with the attitude of the individual carrying the gun. We call those kind of people a$$holes. And in a perfect world we would be able to disallow them from carrying...open or otherwise. Or at least adjust their attitudes for them a little bit
To me it almost seems like you're saying that we need to "hide" our way of life so someone doesn't take it away from us. Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany to me....Jews hiding in the attic kinda thing. I just don't think that responsible gun owners should HAVE to carry concealed. They shouldn't HAVE to hide it in the hopes that they won't offend someone.
I'm not saying we need to hide what we stand for but have you ever considered sticking it in people's faces may garner more resistance than support?
Our battles as gun owners don't always take place with those that want to ban them. There are those who could be swayed either way. Its those we must find a common ground with and bring them to our side because the anti's would never think of doing so.. Problem is, its tough to garner that extra support from the "undecideds" when your packing a gun on your side and an attitude that doesnt give a chit about what someone thinks of it when they see it. I just don't think that's how we draw support for our "way of life"
That's the key in bold. Who said anything in this discussion about poor attitude? I know a couple of people who carry open (like I mentioned). None of them have a "bad attitude" about it. One in particular likes open carry because as he said....it fosters discussion about guns and being armed. Allows him to educate people on guns, and their rights to defend themselves.
I'm not saying there aren't people out there that carry open just for the attention. There definitely are. But the problem there isn't with the open carry of the gun. It's with the attitude of the individual carrying the gun. We call those kind of people a$$holes. And in a perfect world we would be able to disallow them from carrying...open or otherwise. Or at least adjust their attitudes for them a little bit
Furhunter
New member
Originally Posted By: WlscottOriginally Posted By: FurhunterOriginally Posted By: Wlscott
To me it almost seems like you're saying that we need to "hide" our way of life so someone doesn't take it away from us. Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany to me....Jews hiding in the attic kinda thing. I just don't think that responsible gun owners should HAVE to carry concealed. They shouldn't HAVE to hide it in the hopes that they won't offend someone.
I'm not saying we need to hide what we stand for but have you ever considered sticking it in people's faces may garner more resistance than support?
Our battles as gun owners don't always take place with those that want to ban them. There are those who could be swayed either way. Its those we must find a common ground with and bring them to our side because the anti's would never think of doing so.. Problem is, its tough to garner that extra support from the "undecideds" when your packing a gun on your side and an attitude that doesnt give a chit about what someone thinks of it when they see it. I just don't think that's how we draw support for our "way of life"
That's the key in bold. Who said anything in this discussion about poor attitude? I know a couple of people who carry open (like I mentioned). None of them have a "bad attitude" about it. One in particular likes open carry because as he said....it fosters discussion about guns and being armed. Allows him to educate people on guns, and their rights to defend themselves.
I'm not saying there aren't people out there that carry open just for the attention. There definitely are. But the problem there isn't with the open carry of the gun. It's with the attitude of the individual carrying the gun. We call those kind of people a$$holes. And in a perfect world we would be able to disallow them from carrying...open or otherwise. Or at least adjust their attitudes for them a little bit
Maybe attitude wasn't the right word to use in that sentence. My point was more towards open carry and the person not caring much if it makes others around them uncomfortable. It's not the azz hole attitude.. Its the "I could care less about what others think because its my right" stance I was attempting to refer to.
I've had a CCW permit for 9 years now so being able to carry is something I support. Open carry remains one of those things for me that just because we can doesn't necessarily mean we should. They say first impressions mean everything and a gun is about the most polarizing visual impression one can make. I'd rather carry concealed and not have anyone question my intension than make a woman or a child uncomfortable at the sight of a firearm.
To me it almost seems like you're saying that we need to "hide" our way of life so someone doesn't take it away from us. Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany to me....Jews hiding in the attic kinda thing. I just don't think that responsible gun owners should HAVE to carry concealed. They shouldn't HAVE to hide it in the hopes that they won't offend someone.
I'm not saying we need to hide what we stand for but have you ever considered sticking it in people's faces may garner more resistance than support?
Our battles as gun owners don't always take place with those that want to ban them. There are those who could be swayed either way. Its those we must find a common ground with and bring them to our side because the anti's would never think of doing so.. Problem is, its tough to garner that extra support from the "undecideds" when your packing a gun on your side and an attitude that doesnt give a chit about what someone thinks of it when they see it. I just don't think that's how we draw support for our "way of life"
That's the key in bold. Who said anything in this discussion about poor attitude? I know a couple of people who carry open (like I mentioned). None of them have a "bad attitude" about it. One in particular likes open carry because as he said....it fosters discussion about guns and being armed. Allows him to educate people on guns, and their rights to defend themselves.
I'm not saying there aren't people out there that carry open just for the attention. There definitely are. But the problem there isn't with the open carry of the gun. It's with the attitude of the individual carrying the gun. We call those kind of people a$$holes. And in a perfect world we would be able to disallow them from carrying...open or otherwise. Or at least adjust their attitudes for them a little bit
Maybe attitude wasn't the right word to use in that sentence. My point was more towards open carry and the person not caring much if it makes others around them uncomfortable. It's not the azz hole attitude.. Its the "I could care less about what others think because its my right" stance I was attempting to refer to.
I've had a CCW permit for 9 years now so being able to carry is something I support. Open carry remains one of those things for me that just because we can doesn't necessarily mean we should. They say first impressions mean everything and a gun is about the most polarizing visual impression one can make. I'd rather carry concealed and not have anyone question my intension than make a woman or a child uncomfortable at the sight of a firearm.
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Quote:Initially, the instructors separated the girls/boys during competitions, but that proved to be unnecessary since the boys have no advantage and the last 3 league champions have been girls.
That's not surprising. Coached many youngsters in smallbore shooting over the years and I'm of the opinion that little girls have better eye-hand coordination than little boys of the same age.
Based strictly on my experience, young girls pick up shooting skills quicker and quite often outshoot the boys. Another factor is that little girls don't use the term, "I know!" in regard to shooting, nearly as often as little boys.
Regards.
hm
That's not surprising. Coached many youngsters in smallbore shooting over the years and I'm of the opinion that little girls have better eye-hand coordination than little boys of the same age.
Based strictly on my experience, young girls pick up shooting skills quicker and quite often outshoot the boys. Another factor is that little girls don't use the term, "I know!" in regard to shooting, nearly as often as little boys.
Regards.
hm
Wlscott
New member
Maybe attitude wasn't the right word to use in that sentence. My point was more towards open carry and the person not caring much if it makes others around them uncomfortable. It's not the azz hole attitude.. Its the "I could care less about what others think because its my right" stance I was attempting to refer to.
Quote:I've had a CCW permit for 9 years now so being able to carry is something I support. Open carry remains one of those things for me that just because we can doesn't necessarily mean we should. They say first impressions mean everything and a gun is about the most polarizing visual impression one can make. I'd rather carry concealed and not have anyone question my intension than make a woman or a child uncomfortable at the sight of a firearm.
Ok...I can get behind that at least a little bit. But again, at what point do you stop making changes to the things you believe in just to keep from offending the delicate sensibilities of other people? People shouldn't be uncomfortable at the sight of a firearm that is being carried by a responsible person in a legal manner.
You bring up another good point. That of the Constitution. Yes...it is our right to keep and bear arms. So they don't HAVE to care what other people think or if they are "offended". Lets compare that to another Constitutionally guaranteed right. The First Amendment. You ever heard anyone argue over whether or not someone should have NOT said something in a newspaper or on a TV news show because it made people uncomfortable? Nope....you try to censure those people and the first thing they scream is 1st AMENDMENT! It's my right to say whatever I want.
If we applied the same concept to free speech that you're suggesting for open carry...there'd be lawsuits, and public out cry out the wazoo.
One more thought.... If I go to a store that has a gun buster sign, we all agree that it's my right to not go into that store and spend my hard earned dollars if I don't want to sto my weapon in my vehicle. So...if I'm in a place that allows the legal carry of my weapon, and I carry open...if there are people in there that are "offended" or uncomfortable by the presence of my weapon, don't they have the same right to leave that store?
I guess I'm just tired of worrying about making people uncomfortable by stuff I've done all my life. Saying God Bless you when someone sneezes. Saying Merry Christmas. Worrying about making people uncomfortable is just getting re-god d@mm-diculous anymore,
Wlscott
New member
Originally Posted By: hm1996Quote:Initially, the instructors separated the girls/boys during competitions, but that proved to be unnecessary since the boys have no advantage and the last 3 league champions have been girls.
That's not surprising. Coached many youngsters in smallbore shooting over the years and I'm of the opinion that little girls have better eye-hand coordination than little boys of the same age.
Based strictly on my experience, young girls pick up shooting skills quicker and quite often outshoot the boys. Another factor is that little girls don't use the term, "I know!" in regard to shooting, nearly as often as little boys.
Regards.
hm
I agree with this 100%. I have trained a LOT of people to handle/shoot firearms. The worst to train....SOF guys or guys who think they already know everything. The easiest...women. Not only do they smell good
Women have no ego. All men, on the other hand, are born with a penis which they think gives them the inherent knowledge of how to safely handle, and accurately fire a firearm of any kind.
I would much rather be an instructor in a class full of women than men any day. And not for the reasons you guys think either!
That's not surprising. Coached many youngsters in smallbore shooting over the years and I'm of the opinion that little girls have better eye-hand coordination than little boys of the same age.
Based strictly on my experience, young girls pick up shooting skills quicker and quite often outshoot the boys. Another factor is that little girls don't use the term, "I know!" in regard to shooting, nearly as often as little boys.
Regards.
hm
I agree with this 100%. I have trained a LOT of people to handle/shoot firearms. The worst to train....SOF guys or guys who think they already know everything. The easiest...women. Not only do they smell good
I would much rather be an instructor in a class full of women than men any day. And not for the reasons you guys think either!