Home Defense Shotgun Anyone?

my problem with a weopon mounted light, is people point it to light there way, and if the noise you heard in the middle of the night is your kid, and you come aroung the corner and light them up with your light, youa re also pointing a loaded weapons at them, especially since most people are not trained to handle those stressful situations and are probly jumpy (and most likly have your finger on the trigger without realizing it, with the safety maybe on but maybe not)

just my .02

Fin
 
stanly, I've seen -20 here several times and MANY heavy leather coats, not to mention Carhartts over whatever.
(Northern NM) I'm partial to #4 buckfor ANY coyote - no matter how many legs.
Mark
 
Respectfully this is more or less the reason why I prefer 00 8 shot in a 18" security SG over an .223 AR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z81p06PGnQ&NR=1



You may have 30 shots, but if I hit you with one 00 buck (9-15 .33" (8.4 mm)sized balls per shot) game over. All that said, with my alarm I know what room they are in and I can wait for them to exit should I choose. Its far easier to secure your house than to clear a strange building you've never been in. Defence vs Offence is a huge difference.
 
I understand, all I meant was that you should consider as many factors as possible and make a decision based on them. Perhaps our law enforcement guys can jump in here on what happens after a shooting. It varies from state to state, you should defenitely look into that. To each his own, you can shoot slugs if you want to. Situations often are very fluid and don't always go as you think they should and when you're talking about capping off 00 buck inside your home, you should be prepared for it. Build a small section of wall with 2x4s, sheetrock and insulation and shoot it with 00 buck and see the results. I just don't think this is a topic to be taken lightly. While the thought of dumping a scumbag doing you wrong is great, there's more to it after the trigger is pulled. Serious stuff.
 
No I agree completely with what you are saying. I have "bedtime" plan as it were, with a practiced walk through, and as dumb as that may seem to some. I know what i'm using and what it will do. The only factor I can't plan for is what the dog will do, but everyone else is accounted for.

Between the alarm, the hal2000 system and me, its just not a good option for a bad guy.
 
It is serious stuff, which is why you don't use birdshot. If you HAVE to pull the trigger you've gone beyond the 'maybe' line. Birdshot has been shown time and time and time again to not penetrate tissue alone well enough to be considered reliable much less any variables like clothing/distance/etc. In the perfect situation, well you wouldn't be in that situation to start, but in the perfect situation it MAY work. But you have to plan on the worst possible person being the reason you have to pull the trigger.

The worst possible person isn't going to stop because you pointed a gun at them. They're not going to stop because you ran an action. They're not going to stop if they get surface damage. They're not going to stop if the receive an 'eventually' fatal wound. They're only going to stop if you stop them. If that's the case and what you're using CAN'T stop them, all you're holding is the club they're going to take your life with (or the wifes, or the kids...)

Or if the round you choose to use is effective at 5 feet, and what they're using is effective at 25 you've just given an accessory arm to the person that killed you from down the hall while you were busy making noise and muzzle flash. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight or a slingshot to a snipers nest.

I know where my kids are, I know where they sleep. It's 1% of the house that's a no-shoot zone. I would prepare for the 99%. Likewise I know what buckshot will do and that to hurt a neighbor in the unlikely event they ended up in line of a stray pellet the buckshot will have to do what buckshot won't do.

I know that in a typical home at typical ranges you would encounter a badguy presents more of a target filling area than a non-target area in a hallway, door etc. If you're the type of person who hears a noise and empties a mag into a room, well I again say you need a poo-stick instead of a pistol. IMO I can't think of anything I own that I would kill someone for so I'm not concerned with shooting standing in my living room while I'm standing down the hall in my bedroom and hoping that I hit and don't pass through to the neighbors.

LEGALLY in Wyoming, once you enter my house illegally, I own you. And I can defend my property as I see fit, the old castle doctrine. Not as extreme as other states fortunately. But regardless of my legal standing, I can buy a new TV after I run you off. If you choose to stand and fight instead, well I like to fight, I'm better trained than you, I'm faster than you, I'm stronger than you and I'm better equipped than you so good luck
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And if somehow you make it through me, you have to deal with the wife who has been shooting longer than I have. And she'll be ANGRY.
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^this does read like I'm coming off as a hard-[beeep] and it's not intended to be that way, just hard to put in writing what I can do in words better.
 
Yhea, Roger That, I'm with you. You obviously have thought it thru AND have a plan. My comments were intended to those who might just be considering it for the first time and not really sure of the whats wheres and whens. Your state has laws that are geared towards homeowners but not all do. Some are absolutely insane. I'm with you on the "if you come in, not gonna be good for you". Some people live in apartments who might be considering this or duplex or condo as well. Just want people to think seriously about it, master bedrooms are usually prime targets in home invasions because of the valuables usually kept there. I think it was Massad Ayoob wrote an article years ago about this topic, home invasion, bedrooms upstairs, wife took kids into MB, husband went to top of stairs with shotgun, heard multiple intruders, informed they could take what they wanted but do not approach the stairs. They did, he dumped them both at the bottom of the stairs. He went into detail how the homeowner was arrested. How he got sued by surviving family members of the scumbags, was tied up in court for a couple of years and in the end was found justifiable shooting. But he lost his house paying his legal bills etc. Google Massad Ayoob, tons of pertinent info.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n11_v36/ai_11593403/?tag=rbxcra.2.a.33
 
I wanted to add something I saw as a young EMT many years ago as something to also think about.
We got a call to go to a home where there had been a shooting.The man who was shot was in his 30's and sort of a big man.He had been shot in the left center chest at about 4 yards with a 12 guage shotgun.The hole in his chest was about the size of a quater and had pluged itself with fatty tissue,no blood.
We could not hardly hold him down on the backbord,I never did know what he was on.He did not die and the shot still is in him to this day next to his spine.I would not have believed this had I not seen it myself.Another interesting thing was his father was a local State Trooper. You can never know what will happen.Tnshootist
 
Nothing is for certain, Jim Cirillo the famous NYPD Stakeoout gunfighter once nailed an armed bad guy five shots with 1 ounce 12 gauge slugs before keeping him on the pavement. That is quite the exception, within its range a good load of 00 Buck is about as certain as it gets from common law enforcement and civilian self defense arms. This I know from personal experience.
 
THis here is good reading I enjoy reading this kind of stuff. As for me I got 8 rounds of 00 buck for 8 intruders haha. Then you have my wife now that would be a bad day for the intruder!!!!! If for some reason he was able to get by me.
 
I came in a bit late, most of the stuff I was going to say has been said. I have an inexpencive 12 Guage Mavrick. The ammo alternates from 000 Buck, Deer Slug and back and fourth. No sling. The sound of a shotgun cocking is enough to make any intruder flee. If they dont, they will get a loud report shortly there after......all that being said, my shotgun is not my primary home protector, my .45 ACP is. Lots of reasons but the main one is that if an intruder is waiting around a blind corner and he/she sees the barrel of a shotgun rounding that corner, that barrel is now a handle for the intruder to grab on to. My .45 is held vertical and will only go horizontal if there is a target. Just my $.02.
 
I don`t think I would hold my firearm in a vertical position. I was taught to hold my weapon two handed near my naval area.That way as I moved the weapon would move with me. Vertical seems just to movie like to me. I think if having to clear a house with a shot gun . I would point the barrel down to minimize the barrel round the corner long before I do. Also don`t crowd the corner as you approach. Better to give yourself a few feet. Ashotgun to me would be for the safe room personally. If by chance you have to search for the bad guy and you are right handed. You will have to switch your whol weapon to make a right handed corner. A hand gun to me is a lot easire to adjust in your hands if you have to look for the badguy. Just my .01
 
In my experience and it hasn`t been a lot is that unless the badguy is a rapist some criminals don`t go to loot a house with the plans of being in shoot out. I was under the impression that most robberies occur during the daytime when residents aren`t home. Yes I know that home invasions do happen but does anyone know the statistics of homeowners gettin killed during these attemts.I would think that most criminals would try to minimize therir presence in most cases.Thats thre job they rob, steal, intimidate. Around here I have only read of 1 person being shot during a home robbery .Most happen when residents are gone. Just another.01
 
Originally Posted By: john007In my experience and it hasn`t been a lot is that unless the badguy is a rapist some criminals don`t go to loot a house with the plans of being in shoot out. I was under the impression that most robberies occur during the daytime when residents aren`t home. Yes I know that home invasions do happen but does anyone know the statistics of homeowners gettin killed during these attemts.I would think that most criminals would try to minimize therir presence in most cases.Thats thre job they rob, steal, intimidate. Around here I have only read of 1 person being shot during a home robbery .Most happen when residents are gone. Just another.01

it only takes one, thats why i plan on being prepared. i am going to try different loads to find the one that has the least recoil and does the most damage. i patterned 00 buck the other day and at 15 yds on a silhouette target it put all 12 pellets in the center mass. too much recoil for the little lady ill keep trying different ammo. thanks for all the info everyone. Chupa, that site has a wealth of info,i would love to meet and talk to him someday. i learned alot by reading what he has on his web site, thanks again
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NDIndy,

Great info there. I was just reading an Ayoob article the other day and he was talking about a lot of the same stuff. Standing out in my mind was aiming at the pelvis.

He also advocated an interesting choice that no one has mentioned. Replacing the 12 gauge with a 20, especially if there will be some small form factor individuals possibly using it. He seemed to indicate wound channels would be similar. Any thoughts?

So far as bird vs buckshot, in my place over penetration is a huge threat. Shared walls and close neighbors. I load the first two with turkey shot, then 00 buck after that. Rationale being if the bird doesn't stop 'em I have something stronger left.
 
"I don`t think I would hold my firearm in a vertical position. I was taught to hold my weapon two handed near my naval area.That way as I moved the weapon would move with me. Vertical seems just to movie like to me."

The reason I would keep my pistol in a vertical position is for muzzle saftey. Unless there is a target, my muzzle has no business being horizontal. I dont have an empty house. I have a wife, a son and dogs and dont need a fatal accident. Just curious and maybe I do watch too much TV............Are you a LEO or have had military training that has taught you to hold the weapon close to your belly? Just wondering because I have read otherwise.....just curious, not trying to start a debate, all I want to do is learn. Thanks.

Tony
 
Originally Posted By: dtm6582NDIndy,

Great info there. I was just reading an Ayoob article the other day and he was talking about a lot of the same stuff. Standing out in my mind was aiming at the pelvis.

He also advocated an interesting choice that no one has mentioned. Replacing the 12 gauge with a 20, especially if there will be some small form factor individuals possibly using it. He seemed to indicate wound channels would be similar. Any thoughts?

So far as bird vs buckshot, in my place over penetration is a huge threat. Shared walls and close neighbors. I load the first two with turkey shot, then 00 buck after that. Rationale being if the bird doesn't stop 'em I have something stronger left.

I'm not a big shotgun guy, always looked at it as another tool but not the primary tool. Great for beanbags though. I would think that 20ga gives up very little to a 12ga in most situations. You'll lose a little downrange velocity, but really only payload. Unless you're trying to down a bird and need the extra spread or a couple extra yards there's not a whole lot of difference. You'll get more buckshot or a slightly heavier slug with the 12, but at typical SD ranges you'll have a good load with either. Just stay away from the .410, it's inadequate for SD regardless of the load.
 
Originally Posted By: Powerfisher"I don`t think I would hold my firearm in a vertical position. I was taught to hold my weapon two handed near my naval area.That way as I moved the weapon would move with me. Vertical seems just to movie like to me."

The reason I would keep my pistol in a vertical position is for muzzle saftey. Unless there is a target, my muzzle has no business being horizontal. I dont have an empty house. I have a wife, a son and dogs and dont need a fatal accident. Just curious and maybe I do watch too much TV............Are you a LEO or have had military training that has taught you to hold the weapon close to your belly? Just wondering because I have read otherwise.....just curious, not trying to start a debate, all I want to do is learn. Thanks.

Tony

It's a LOT easier to continue a fight if you accidentally shoot yourself in the leg than if you accidentally shoot yourself in the head. TV makes bad habits.

Finger OFF the trigger and held around the navel is a safe position. It will naturally end up in a slightly muzzle down direction and with your finger OFF the trigger you're fine. By elevating the muzzle slightly and putting your finger ON the trigger it gives a natural point of aim for close range combat. That is if someone steps around the corner to kill you at 2 feet your average person can begin placing rounds onto target while they step back and take a better firing stance. If you ended up grappling for your life, the muzzle is more in their direction than yours.

However with a vertical (TV) hold, if someone steps around the corner, very easy for them to either secure your pistol pointed up so it's worthless, or place the muzzle against your chin, it's a naturally weak position and a weaker person than will have a natural advantage against a stronger person.
 
Originally Posted By: GCNothing is for certain, Jim Cirillo the famous NYPD Stakeoout gunfighter once nailed an armed bad guy five shots with 1 ounce 12 gauge slugs before keeping him on the pavement. That is quite the exception, within its range a good load of 00 Buck is about as certain as it gets from common law enforcement and civilian self defense arms. This I know from personal experience.

We have/had a guy walking around town with a .45 in his head. He got into a shootout with a cop and they chased each other around a car popping rounds over the roof for a while until the cop remembered bullets travel through glass and put 1 round through 2 windows and into the bad guys face.

He was using an inferior bullet though, it shed it's jacket and only part of the lead core hit, lodged into his skull and stopped inside his sinus. The lead is still there (assuming he's still alive, it's been a while)but was a non-fatal head shot. It did eventually end the fight, just not as fast as it should have.

Stories like that are exactly why you don't stop just because you pulled the trigger, you fight until the fight is over.
 


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