Hornady V-max vs. A-max

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Hornady Bullet Guide (cut and paste from Hornady.com)

A-MAX™ and BTHP Match - Rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration.
Recommended muzzle velocity range: 2000+ fps.
These bullets are not recommended for hunting medium and large game.



Mongo...

I spoke to Hornady some years back about the "usefulness" of A-Maxs on varmints. I have a family member that was having problems on a Kobe moo cow ranch she owned.

The main problem was feral dogs and some yotes at calving time.

So I called Hornady and asked about the 178 A-Max, cuz I was gonna use a 300WM 1000 yd target rifle on them (they were smart and cagey).

The guy at Hornady really pumped me up on the 178 saying that it had a thin skin and was explosive... so I loaded up a bunch and did my ballistic homework.

She got complaints from a neighbor about whining bullets flying over their property. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

They were not opening up on the 30 to 40 pound dogs.

So I asked around, and found a guy that used the 178 on deer, and he had full length penetration on deer with no fragmentation - he showed me a perfectly mushroomed 178 A-Max without the red tip /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

So I switched to a smaller .264 WM belted mag and real 95gr V-Max bullets. That worked fine.

The 224 A-Maxs seem to all be varmint capable, but in my limited experence, the 30 cal A-Maxs are not explosive.


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^^^^LOL. Those pesky numbers.

I've never played with the 52 A-max but the .224" 75 A-max has came apart very quickly on the critters that I've poked them into, which has been from woodchuck's to whitetails. Here awhile back I tried poking one into a sand bank at 700yds just to see if I could recover more than just fragments. No dice, It penetrated just a few inches and all I could recover was small fragments. I really do like that little bullet.



So if Berger made a .224 52grain VLD would this bullet be it's direct competitor?

That's basically what I'm looking for in my coyote load.

Rick



The problem is that in order to be a VLD, the bullet has to have some more length and a much longer ogive, and there isn't enuff "stuff" in a 52 grain 224 bullet to make it long enuff. The 52 A-Max is not a VLD, and it is about as long as it gets for 52 grains - much longer (at 0.800") that the Berger (at 0.719").

In fact, the 52 A-Max is the longest 52 grain .224 bullet made by anybody.


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So does that explain why the BC is one of the best also?

It's at .247, the Berger .224 52gr. match is the only one better at .250.

Those are the 2 best that I have found in 52gr.

Rick
 
I thought the idea on the VLD was that as someone else put it, "They went nuclear" inside and didn't pass through, or over penetrate?

I was hoping to find something like this in a .224 52gr.

Rick
 
The VLDs were designed as target bullets, first for the Olympics and then for across-the-course and long range shooting. How they perform on game is just an accident of how they are made.

Jack
 
Yep, what Jack said. The VLD's seem to typically be a little heavy for caliber and gain a ton of BC on form factor. (unless I am missing something)
 
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^^^^LOL. Those pesky numbers.

I've never played with the 52 A-max but the .224" 75 A-max has came apart very quickly on the critters that I've poked them into, which has been from woodchuck's to whitetails. Here awhile back I tried poking one into a sand bank at 700yds just to see if I could recover more than just fragments. No dice, It penetrated just a few inches and all I could recover was small fragments. I really do like that little bullet.



So if Berger made a .224 52grain VLD would this bullet be it's direct competitor?

That's basically what I'm looking for in my coyote load.

Rick



The problem is that in order to be a VLD, the bullet has to have some more length and a much longer ogive, and there isn't enuff "stuff" in a 52 grain 224 bullet to make it long enuff. The 52 A-Max is not a VLD, and it is about as long as it gets for 52 grains - much longer (at 0.800") that the Berger (at 0.719").

In fact, the 52 A-Max is the longest 52 grain .224 bullet made by anybody.


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So does that explain why the BC is one of the best also?

It's at .247, the Berger .224 52gr. match is the only one better at .250.

Those are the 2 best that I have found in 52gr.

Rick



Keep in mind that the BCs of the different companies are derived differently.

If you take the same bullet and give it to Hornady, Sierra, Berger, and whoever else you like, and ask them to come up with a BC for it, they will NOT come back with the same BC numbers.

Shooters think that BCs are an absolute, but they are not.

In 20 cal, the 39gr Sierra has a higher BC (0.287) than the Hornady 40 V-Max (0.255)... but launched at the same muzzle velocity, the Hornady will run away from the Sierra, and shoot flatter, and hit harder... (I shot the two at 400 yds and the difference is large and in favor of the Hornady).

For all the things that shooters don't trust, it is amazing that shooters have a religious trust in published BCs and the numbers that their chronographs give them...

There are no SAAMI standards on deriving BC, and there is no way to test the accuracy of chronographs.

I once put three chronos in line and shot through them... they should have all said the same thing, less a few feet per second for the spacing... but there results were not pretty. Nothing matched even close - the ES, SDs and max/min/av velocities were all over the place for each shot, and were NOT consistent in error, meaning that one was not always 50 feet slower... one shot over the chronos could have A @ 3565, B @ 3520, and C @ 3593... and the order of errors would scrambled differently the next shot.

It was a real eye opener for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

... BCs and chronos are not good places to put your trust /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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The 52 gr. A-Max works very well on coyotes. I use the 52 gr in my 22-250 ackley at 3950-4000 fps. it does a nice job on the fur and works real well past 300 yds.. I've tested it on more than one coyote and use it as my main bullet for the ackley..
 
I shoot a lot of deer on crop damage permits and have been using the a-max in 6.5x55 Improved (140gr). They are a wonderful hunting bullet. When we find them in the deer, they are usually just the jacket. The core has dissapeared through a pass through or a blow up, we don't know. I have quite a few jackets left from deer. They mimick very closely a balisitc tip shot at high velocity as I have quite a few jackets from those as well, without the cores.

So far we have used them in 6.5 140gr, 7mm 162gr, 30cal in 168 and 178gr and they work extremely well for hunting, at least at ranges from 200-500yds.
 
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^^^^LOL. Those pesky numbers.

I've never played with the 52 A-max but the .224" 75 A-max has came apart very quickly on the critters that I've poked them into, which has been from woodchuck's to whitetails. Here awhile back I tried poking one into a sand bank at 700yds just to see if I could recover more than just fragments. No dice, It penetrated just a few inches and all I could recover was small fragments. I really do like that little bullet.



So if Berger made a .224 52grain VLD would this bullet be it's direct competitor?

That's basically what I'm looking for in my coyote load.

Rick



The problem is that in order to be a VLD, the bullet has to have some more length and a much longer ogive, and there isn't enuff "stuff" in a 52 grain 224 bullet to make it long enuff. The 52 A-Max is not a VLD, and it is about as long as it gets for 52 grains - much longer (at 0.800") that the Berger (at 0.719").

In fact, the 52 A-Max is the longest 52 grain .224 bullet made by anybody.


.



So does that explain why the BC is one of the best also?

It's at .247, the Berger .224 52gr. match is the only one better at .250.

Those are the 2 best that I have found in 52gr.

Rick



In 20 cal, the 39gr Sierra has a higher BC (0.287) than the Hornady 40 V-Max (0.255)... but launched at the same muzzle velocity, the Hornady will run away from the Sierra, and shoot flatter, and hit harder... (I shot the two at 400 yds and the difference is large and in favor of the Hornady).

... BCs and chronos are not good places to put your trust /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Cat, could the 40gr. running away be explained by the bullet having more weight and inertia, therefore carrying more momentum down range?

As far as chrono's go, I always thought they were usefull for your own test on your own equipment. So you had the same standard all the time. I always felt if that chrono you used for all your data ever broke. You were probably screwed when you bought a new one.

You just confirmed my suspicion.

Rick
 
Spoke with hornady today, they said the differance between a V-max vs. A-max is the A-max is a boat tail, and the A-max has a little heavier jacket at the nose, both tips are polymer ballistic tip. The A-max has never been tested for expansion because they always considered it a match bullet only.

Rick
 
ive just always thought what was stated above that the amaxs were for target shooting, i may try some on critters after reading these reports, i will say that the vmaxs out of cals im shooting usaully have major carnage at the POI i have shot g-hogs in the head with my swift with 50 grain vmaxes and never came out close shots under 2 bills that is suprising but his eyes look alot bigger and his head dont have the same shape that they should before they smiled for the flash Ron
 
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^^^^LOL. Those pesky numbers.

I've never played with the 52 A-max but the .224" 75 A-max has came apart very quickly on the critters that I've poked them into, which has been from woodchuck's to whitetails. Here awhile back I tried poking one into a sand bank at 700yds just to see if I could recover more than just fragments. No dice, It penetrated just a few inches and all I could recover was small fragments. I really do like that little bullet.



So if Berger made a .224 52grain VLD would this bullet be it's direct competitor?

That's basically what I'm looking for in my coyote load.

Rick



The problem is that in order to be a VLD, the bullet has to have some more length and a much longer ogive, and there isn't enuff "stuff" in a 52 grain 224 bullet to make it long enuff. The 52 A-Max is not a VLD, and it is about as long as it gets for 52 grains - much longer (at 0.800") that the Berger (at 0.719").

In fact, the 52 A-Max is the longest 52 grain .224 bullet made by anybody.


.



So does that explain why the BC is one of the best also?

It's at .247, the Berger .224 52gr. match is the only one better at .250.

Those are the 2 best that I have found in 52gr.

Rick



In 20 cal, the 39gr Sierra has a higher BC (0.287) than the Hornady 40 V-Max (0.255)... but launched at the same muzzle velocity, the Hornady will run away from the Sierra, and shoot flatter, and hit harder... (I shot the two at 400 yds and the difference is large and in favor of the Hornady).

... BCs and chronos are not good places to put your trust /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



Cat, could the 40gr. running away be explained by the bullet having more weight and inertia, therefore carrying more momentum down range?

As far as chrono's go, I always thought they were usefull for your own test on your own equipment. So you had the same standard all the time. I always felt if that chrono you used for all your data ever broke. You were probably screwed when you bought a new one.

You just confirmed my suspicion.

Rick



Rick... the one grain difference is inconsequential (my spell checker alarm went off on that one)...

The BC of a bullet is determined by the shape and the weight - but one grain or weight is not enough to do it.

The Sierra has a tiny "boat tail", which is really no more than a feeding ramp for the case mouth - the Hornady has one of the new-ish, very long 9° boat tails, and that is what is responsible for the advantage - if the bullets were evaluated by the same group (which ever group) the Hornady would have ~0.2 to 0.3 BC advantage over the Sierra - it is a really slippy bullet.

The down side of this bullet is that it is enuff longer than the Sierra, that it really needs a faster twist than the standard 12"... and since the standard twist for 20 cals is 12", the Hornady 40 will be marginally stable in a fair number of factory 204s.

My 204 is going out for a new barrel with a 10" twist as soon as I can find some free money (HA!!!)

.
 
Well based on what I'm hearing, it looks like I'll probably start with the 52gr. A-max and go from there.

The gun just showed up yesterday, so It'll be awhile till I get to it.

Thanks guys,

Rick
 
not that it matters Catshooter cause I'm not adding anything to the conversation but the hornady site lists the 20cal 40gr Vmax with a BC of .275 much closer to the sierra 39gr BC of .287.

I know, picky picky!
 
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not that it matters Catshooter cause I'm not adding anything to the conversation but the hornady site lists the 20cal 40gr Vmax with a BC of .275 much closer to the sierra 39gr BC of .287.

I know, picky picky!



Could be... I probably clicked on the wrong thing - but the thing about the BC derivatives still applies.

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not that it matters Catshooter cause I'm not adding anything to the conversation but the hornady site lists the 20cal 40gr Vmax with a BC of .275 much closer to the sierra 39gr BC of .287.

I know, picky picky!



Yup... I probably clicked on the wrong thing - but the thing about the BC derivatives still applies.

Not picky picky at all - valid.

.
 
The only BCs you can usually count on are the ones for the bullets used in competition. Competitive shooters are real quick to point out erronious BCs on bullets they are betting money on. Once money is on the line, there are no free passes.
Once there is prise money, the game gets serious quickly.

Jack
 


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