catwhacker
Active member
Originally Posted By: VarminterrorOriginally Posted By: obarovarmintterror- If weight is not so much of a factor on a race horse, why is 7-8 pounds considered a handicap, and why are there handicappers/handicaps on some races?
I did not say weight isn't a factor on a race horse. My point was that saddled or not, a horse is faster than a whitetailed deer. But for whatever reason, in the doing of things in the real world, it's pretty dam hard to run down a deer on a horse. Yes, a horse is going to lose some speed when you add some weight, but horse that runs 47.5mph under a 115lb rig will NOT get dropped to 28mph under a 126lb rig, nor under a 200lb rig. (Frankly, handicapping has never made sense to me anyway, as the "leading" is generally less significant against total weight than whether a horse took a dump before a race or not). Handicaps have more to do with the perception of the betters than the actual performance of the horses. Billions of dollars are bet every year on horse racing, let alone the investment of the owners/breeders/trainers. If enough people with enough money complain about something seeming unfair, a rule will get put in place to "even the odds", whether it actually matters or not.
My original point was that not every number you read on a page will come to fruition in the field. Some of the other posts were contesting that a greyhound is actually faster than a coyote, while the listing that Jetman shared (source?) suggested that coyotes top out at 43mph and greyhounds top out at 39mph, with the question being "well how is that true if greyhounds can catch a coyote?"
So I then presented the point that even though a coyote's RECORD speed might be faster than a greyhounds record, we all know in the doing of it, a greyhound can run down a coyote. Equally, the same listing supports that a quarter horse (top speed of 47.5mph) should be able to easily run down a whitetailed deer (meager top speed of 30mph), however, my experience would reflect that despite a 17mph advantage, it's pretty dang rare that a horse can catch up to a deer.
Now, yes, we ALL realize that the more weight you carry, the slower you'll end up moving, but my point was even though a 200lb rider is going to slow down a horse (keep in mind that the listing record is based on a race horse carrying 112-126lbs, not bare), it's NOT going to slow a 47.5mph horse down below 30mph. Sure, a horse would run faster bare than it would even under a 112lb rig, but frankly, horses are lazy, and will rarely "flat get after it" unless someone is asking them to do so.
HOWEVER, my point is that in my experince, if you add 200lbs to a horse that's used to carrying a rider, if his NAKED top speed was 47.5mph, his loaded speed would not drop so far that a 30mph whitetail deer, which he supposedly SHOULD be able to catch with ease, can now out run him. If a horse tops out at 40mph unsaddled, I would be amazed if he loses more than 5mph carrying a 200lb load, still 5mph faster than a whitetailed deer.
If 30mph is a true number, I do know for a fact that quarter horses carrying a roping saddle and a 180lb jockey (i.e. myself) can top over 40mph, and these aren't track ponies. So if the best in the biz are 47.5mph under a 126lb rig, and my work horses are 40mph under a 220lb rig, that's pretty convincing that a quarterhorse will indeed run faster than 30mph. Fair enough?
I also pointed out that I would put my money on an F-150 pick up in a race against a Ferrari across a pasture, and further that I'd bet on a minivan against a funnycar on a circle track, should we debate the handicapping system for NASCAR races as well?
Again, my original point was not to argue about handicaps in horse racing, it was to point out that numbers on a page often don't mean much when it comes to the practical execution of something.
OH, Now I get it!! It's clear as mud now!!
I did not say weight isn't a factor on a race horse. My point was that saddled or not, a horse is faster than a whitetailed deer. But for whatever reason, in the doing of things in the real world, it's pretty dam hard to run down a deer on a horse. Yes, a horse is going to lose some speed when you add some weight, but horse that runs 47.5mph under a 115lb rig will NOT get dropped to 28mph under a 126lb rig, nor under a 200lb rig. (Frankly, handicapping has never made sense to me anyway, as the "leading" is generally less significant against total weight than whether a horse took a dump before a race or not). Handicaps have more to do with the perception of the betters than the actual performance of the horses. Billions of dollars are bet every year on horse racing, let alone the investment of the owners/breeders/trainers. If enough people with enough money complain about something seeming unfair, a rule will get put in place to "even the odds", whether it actually matters or not.
My original point was that not every number you read on a page will come to fruition in the field. Some of the other posts were contesting that a greyhound is actually faster than a coyote, while the listing that Jetman shared (source?) suggested that coyotes top out at 43mph and greyhounds top out at 39mph, with the question being "well how is that true if greyhounds can catch a coyote?"
So I then presented the point that even though a coyote's RECORD speed might be faster than a greyhounds record, we all know in the doing of it, a greyhound can run down a coyote. Equally, the same listing supports that a quarter horse (top speed of 47.5mph) should be able to easily run down a whitetailed deer (meager top speed of 30mph), however, my experience would reflect that despite a 17mph advantage, it's pretty dang rare that a horse can catch up to a deer.
Now, yes, we ALL realize that the more weight you carry, the slower you'll end up moving, but my point was even though a 200lb rider is going to slow down a horse (keep in mind that the listing record is based on a race horse carrying 112-126lbs, not bare), it's NOT going to slow a 47.5mph horse down below 30mph. Sure, a horse would run faster bare than it would even under a 112lb rig, but frankly, horses are lazy, and will rarely "flat get after it" unless someone is asking them to do so.
HOWEVER, my point is that in my experince, if you add 200lbs to a horse that's used to carrying a rider, if his NAKED top speed was 47.5mph, his loaded speed would not drop so far that a 30mph whitetail deer, which he supposedly SHOULD be able to catch with ease, can now out run him. If a horse tops out at 40mph unsaddled, I would be amazed if he loses more than 5mph carrying a 200lb load, still 5mph faster than a whitetailed deer.
If 30mph is a true number, I do know for a fact that quarter horses carrying a roping saddle and a 180lb jockey (i.e. myself) can top over 40mph, and these aren't track ponies. So if the best in the biz are 47.5mph under a 126lb rig, and my work horses are 40mph under a 220lb rig, that's pretty convincing that a quarterhorse will indeed run faster than 30mph. Fair enough?
I also pointed out that I would put my money on an F-150 pick up in a race against a Ferrari across a pasture, and further that I'd bet on a minivan against a funnycar on a circle track, should we debate the handicapping system for NASCAR races as well?
Again, my original point was not to argue about handicaps in horse racing, it was to point out that numbers on a page often don't mean much when it comes to the practical execution of something.
OH, Now I get it!! It's clear as mud now!!
