How hard is hard?

243ME

243ME

New member
A buddy of mine went out and hunted on a preserve in Iowa. He went on a hunt for an Elk. I'm not one for this type of hunt but was asked to tag along. I borrowed him my 30-06 loaded with 150g Seirra Gamekings that should have been leaving the barrel around the 2900-3000fps mark. He shot a 6x6 Bull at about 150 yards away right, what looked like, square in the shoulder. The bullet actully slipped right behind it through lungs and hit the leg bone on the other side. The lead separated from the jacket(which I recovered). At the shot the bull ran with its head down for about a good 30-40 yards and stopped swinging its head side to side. The other Bulls that had been with it decided to run. Just as they did the dieing Bull lifted its head and started trotting so I convinced my buddy to take another shot. His 2nd shot hit about in the area that looked like a heart shot. Two inches behind the front shoulder and low. The bull bucked its rear feet out and ran 10 yards at the most and then rocked back and forth going down for the count. The second bullet completely penetrated the animal. Neither bullet made a mess going in or out for that matter. I know the first bullet killed the animal but I was expecting to see it fall down with the shot. I know a 150g bullet was a little light and since this was a game farm I wasnt too excited about the animal getting away, but shouldn't a cartrige like this give a bang plop performace anyway?...I have heard of hunters dropping Elk in their tracks with similar broadside shots with smaller calibers. I loaded up some 180g Accubonds but didnt have a chance to resight the gun in for the hunt. I would have liked to see they would have broked the leg.
 
I have killed lots of elk with either a .270 or a .375 H&H Magnum. Elk are tough, some bang/flopped, most have not. Fortunately, all of the shots I've taken at elk have been in the kill zone of heart/lungs or head. Head shots (thats what I prefer on cows) are the ones that drop in their tracks. The rest have traveled anywhere from 20 yards to half a mile. I once punched one through the lungs with a .375 and knocked it flat. Then it got up and ran a half mile and when I found it, it was still on its feet. A head shot put it down for good. They are a tough critter and any died in the wool elk hunter that tells you they are bang/flopped every time is full of you know what. Most of the elk I've taken were done in with the .270 using 130 grain bronze points. Have used the same load for almost 50 years. It puts 'em down for keeps. The key is hit 'em in the right spot.
 
The only bang flops I've had with deer using a .30-06 were animals I hit or came very close to hitting the spine. I've never been worried about big game going down with a 150 gr bullet going through the lungs, it's going to happen fairly soon. I think the combination did about as much as you could ask from it, 150gr in an 06 is on the light side for a big critter.

Tim
 
243ME,

Elk are probably one of the toughest animals if not the most toughest to be able to kill. Their ability to absorb lead and not die right away is almost unbelievable. I have killed 10 with my rifle and 5 more with my bow. I have yet to have a (Bang Flop)!!! I have seen a few on videos that fell where they were standing but would suspect it was a spine shot or head shot. I've only elk hunted for about 20 years, and could have killed an elk every one of those but hold out for the big one. Out of all of my friends that hunt elk I don't recall any of them telling of a bang flop. One thing you hear around hunt camps here in Idaho is shoot till it drops then keep your sights on it. I read and have heard of guys shooting them with 243s and small calibers, but I have alot more respect for such a grand animal than to take a chance like that. It takes along time for a bull to reach truly trophy proportions and there are nowhere near the numbers as compared to whitetails or muleys for me to risk using a deer rifle on an elk. Some might take exception to my way of thinking and then throw the archery kills in my face, but all my kills with the bow have been 30 yards or less, and each one has been a complete pass through both lungs. All the kills with the bow have traveled less distance after the shot than all the ones I shot with my rifle, which is a 300 mag shooting 200 grain bullets. If I used a 30-06, I would use minimum 165 grainers and would probably find a load using 180 grainers.
 
I have had two Elk drop in their track both cows, one was with the 30-06 and the 165 gr Nosler Part. the shot was a little high and got close to the spine. The other was behind the shoulder shot with the 225 gr Nosler Part from my 338 Ultra Mag and broke the shoulder on the far side. All the others went around 50 yards before going down. My hunting buddy shot a bull 4 times behind the shoulder with his 300 Win Mag at about 125 yards with the 200 gr Sierra Spt. and it just stood there looking around and then walked off. He thought he was missing it. He when to check which way it went and it was down about 50 yards from where it was shot and you could cover all 4 shots with your hand right behind the shoulder. What i am trying to say is pound for pound Elk my be the hardest animal to put down on the spot, that you can hunt. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Out of the 30+ elk that I have killed, I can count the number that tipped over on the spot on one hand. Obviously, a central nervous system hit will stop them cold. Other than that, you need to do enough damage to make it physically impossible for them to run off, like take out both front shoulders, preferably high in the shoulders.

I don't think an elk is any harder to kill than any other critter of similar stature (i.e African plains game of the same size). Thing is, folks forget a big old bull elk is just plain huge compared to the typical white tail. Wanna talk about tough? How about a feral cat or a jack rabbit. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
i've shot 41 elk myself(280rem & 338win) and have seen 300+ shot guiding hunters(25cal to 416cal) for 30 years(along with 200+ deer, 100+ antelope, 20+ moose and 25 bighorn sheep). most move off up to 100yds like your scenario, some go down in their tracks. i think you have to hit some heavy bone structure to get them right down. with lung/heart shots the animal needs to bleed out before dying. knowing your gun and shot placement is the key to being successful. i tell guys to shoot until the animal is down. some guys let false pride of one shot kills get in the way and end up loosing the animal or chasing after it a long ways. my advice is shoot until anchored.
 
I have seen many people have elk go farther than they expected after being shot, and have always frowned on small caliber elk hunters. The .30-06 has done well for me with 180 gr. Stepping up to the .300 Win Mag 178 gr suits me better. Neck or head shots are my preference but not always possible. My wife started with a .280 and I taught her to shoot the shoulder so it would go down. Factory ammo was limited and she had trouble needing to shoot it three times. Her next gun was an 06 180 gr downing one first shot. Since she has shot a couple in the neck, very nice. Many neck shots drop them like a rock but they are not always completely dead. One year after seeing a neck shot a couple friends did the same with great results and very little meat loss. Everyone is right Keep shooting unless they are running toward the truck then wait til they get there.
 
I shot an elk with the 06 at 70 yards with the nosler ballistic tips adn hit it three times and it still ean a little after the third shot... all shots were heart/lung shots



an elk is a big animal and they are extremely hard to drop in there tracks...
unless you use head shots
 
A big bull is truly a large animal, 600+ pounds with massive lungs. I think those big lungs won't collapse as quickly as the lungs on a smaller animal might, and breaking a shoulder definitely helps anchor them quicker.

ToddsBull_001.jpg


I shot this 5x5 Roosevelt with my bow, bugled and cow called to slow him down, and heard him hit the ground about 50 yards away in the timber. Short of a shoulder shot with a rifle, there was no stopping him from running until his oxygen ran out.
 
i have considering getting an ar-10 308 for an all purpose rifle for deer, black bear, coyotes and elk. are there any opinions out there about this cartridge on elk?
 
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i have considering getting an ar-10 308 for an all purpose rifle for deer, black bear, coyotes and elk. are there any opinions out there about this cartridge on elk?



Nothing wrong with the .308 for elk. Like any gun, it's important to place your shot and with the .308 it's a good idea to use a good quality bullet.

One guy in our group this year killed his elk with a M1A .308 with a 180 grain rem corelokt.

All but one elk that I've shot have gone 20 to 100 yards except one and it was hit with a 30 cal 180 grain X bulet at 2600 fps MV on a 45 yard shot. That one dropped immediately. Wasn't a .308, but those are pretty much .308 ballistics.
 
For the 2004 cow elk season in Nevada, I let a friend use my .338 Winchester to take his Elk. During some early scouting we found a blind that had been set-up by a photographer over a spring. The first morning, as the sun started to rise over the mountain, he had a what he thought was a small cow come in and placed the first shot behind the shoulder at about 15 yards. The elk just lifted it's head and looked around for a moment then went back to drinking water. My friend thought "How could I have missed at this range?" He shot a second time at the same spot, this time the elk lifted it's head startled and move to the right about 20 feet and looked around. My friend was confused to say the least, so he racked another shell into the chamber and placed the cross-hairs in the same place and was about to pull the trigger again when he could see two holes about 2 inches apart form each other. He watched as the elk started to cough and struggle for air then colapse and die. Total time was about 7 minutes.

The 338 winchester was loaded to about 2900 fps using Nosler 210 gr. Partitions. The elk weighed just over 280 lbs. HE SHOULD HAVE PLACED A HEAD/NECK SHOT ON THE ELK.
 
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