How many animals go to heaven?

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Quote:DD- the way I read your last response is that there is no way you could believe there was a god that was trying to communicate with you. I am I getting that right? I didn't say that.

Like the invisible dragon, there is no evidence god communicates at all to anybody let alone exists. I am always open to new evidence. You have offered none.
 
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Never try to teach a pig to tell time. It annoys the pig, it's a waste of time, and it usually ruins a good timepiece.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGKinda like Infidel 762's claim, nobody except him can ever experience or test or see or feel or his god encounter. We all have to just take his word for it that he has an invisible dragon in his garage had a god experience because he said so.

Why do you assume that I expect you to take my word on a dragon or even care what you believe? My statement was to show you incorrectly assumed personal aspects of me and then dismissed them as my beliefs. If I am going to individually call someone out on something, I make certain I know exactly what I am calling them out on. That is why I have questioned you to come out from behind the faults in religion position and give individual thought. But so far all I see is someone who has done a lot of reading from the comfort of desk and found contradictions upon which to build a personal belief system. Is your position purely book/scripture knowledge and lack of any personal experience or am I incorrect in my assumption?
 
Quote:I said nothing about your heart, or that there were any other parameters, just that your pants were on fire.]Walking past a garage and my pants catch on fire? It would be illogical to assume the cause was an invisible dragon, for which there was no evidence. Garages often store flamable materials like gasoline and various chemicals, gas tanks and welding equipment, cleaners and fumes, electrical cords and tools... Garage fires happen all the time, we had one down the street recently. With zero evidence of an invisable dragon, why would I conclude an invisible dragon caused the flames? Because you said so? (And then the neighbor comes over and says he can't see any dragon either but HE has an invisible godzilla with invisible laser eyes in his garage it must be that).
 
After wading through this muck, here is an opinion. If you believe in God, you gotta feel he has a sense of humor. If you don't believe, you better have a sense of humor. Y'all have a safe and great New Year's!
 
Originally Posted By: Infadel 762My statement was to show you incorrectly assumed personal aspects of me and then dismissed them as my beliefs. If I am going to individually call someone out on something, I make certain I know exactly what I am calling them out on. You've been vague on defining your position regarding god and nondenominational spiritualism, and to be fair, nobody has asked for clarification. Maybe because nobody here is interested. So I'll ask for clarification.
Originally Posted By: Infadel 762I have been to the edges of insanity and as dark of places as most will ever see in this world. My faith is founded in bearing whiteness to my own personal restoration by a power much greater than any human power.
1) Personal restoration: what does that mean?
2) How did you come to the conclusion that a power much greater than any human power, that resolved your struggle, was un-human? How did you conclude that power was a god?
3) How did you conclude that power was good and not evil?
4) Your struggle as described sounds emotional or mental, rather than physical. How do you know your experience was not simply a delusion?
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGOriginally Posted By: Infadel 762My statement was to show you incorrectly assumed personal aspects of me and then dismissed them as my beliefs. If I am going to individually call someone out on something, I make certain I know exactly what I am calling them out on. You've been vague on defining your position regarding god and nondenominational spiritualism, and to be fair, nobody has asked for clarification. Maybe because nobody here is interested. So I'll ask for clarification.
Originally Posted By: Infadel 762I have been to the edges of insanity and as dark of places as most will ever see in this world. My faith is founded in bearing whiteness to my own personal restoration by a power much greater than any human power.
1) Personal restoration: what does that mean?
2) How did you come to the conclusion that a power much greater than any human power, that resolved your struggle, was un-human? How did you conclude that power was a god?
3) How did you conclude that power was good and not evil?
4) Your struggle as described sounds emotional or mental, rather than physical. How do you know your experience was not simply a delusion?


Answer this simple question you keep deflecting first.

Is your entire belief system based off stuff you have read and a lack of personal experience?
 
Originally Posted By: Infadel 762
Answer this simple question you keep deflecting first.

Is your entire belief system based off stuff you have read and a lack of personal experience?
The answer is not relevent to my position, but I will entertain you anyways. The answer is no. I was raised in a fundamentalist christian religion. I earned a secular degree from a state university in addition to completing a seperate 4 year religious studies program. I experienced multiple religions in multiple cities, multiple states, and multiple countries. I left organized religion some time ago but temporarily took up studying several newer religions (mormonism and scientology etc are fascinating) as a hobby and did some reading in psychology, philosophy, and epistemology. These days I have lost most of my interest in the god question and I do other things. That good enough for you?
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGOriginally Posted By: Infadel 762
Answer this simple question you keep deflecting first.

Is your entire belief system based off stuff you have read and a lack of personal experience?
The answer is not relevent to my position, but I will entertain you anyways. The answer is no. I was raised in a fundamentalist christian religion. I earned a secular degree from a state university in addition to completing a seperate 4 year religious studies program. I experienced multiple religions in multiple cities, multiple states, and multiple countries. I left organized religion some time ago but temporarily took up studying several newer religions (mormonism and scientology etc are fascinating) as a hobby and did some reading in psychology, philosiphy, and epistemology. These days I have lost most of my interest in the god question and I do other things. That good enough for you?

No such thing. A nickname given to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints by those who know little about the church other than they have a scripture called The Book of Mormon.
 
Originally Posted By: crapshootMormonism. No such thing. A nickname given to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints by those who know little about the church other than they have a scripture called The Book of Mormon.
Crapshoot, I'm positive I have studied mormonism more in depth than you, I have read many books on mormon history and theology from both faithful sources and non-faithful, spoken face to face with mormon leaders and members and BYU religion professors and faithful historians and apologists etc. I can likely run circles around your knowledge of mormonism in both history and theology.

And for the record, LDS members called themselves mormons for years under church sanctioned media/advertising programs authorized by then-President Thomas Monson. Source: I'm a Mormon! Here's the Wikipedia article on the campaign. Don't try to erase your own history for goodness sakes. Don't forget the movie Meet the Mormons that was produced by TCOJCOLDS mormon church and members were highly encouraged by top level leaders to go see the movie in theaters and invite investigators. Here is the link to your church's web site. You and your kids most likely have the lyrics to this song: "I'm a Mormon Yes I Am!" memorized and your kids probably sang it in primary programs in sacrament meetings. For years my college roomate had an "I'm a Mormon!" profile set up on lds-dot-org with his profile pic and a short bio on his missionary service and career as a HS principle (it has been taken down recently).Here's ANOTHER link to online video I'm a mormon profiles.

I consider myself an amature EXPERT on mormonism. You cannot refute anything I have said here or the sources I linked. Admit it, you personally likely used to call yourself a mormon along with everyone you knew for a loooong time and with pride. You probably even proudly called yourself a mormon missionary at one time. How soon you forget. It's only in the past year that the current Prophet said to stop saying mormon. Before that, it was officially encouraged! You can't erase the past, and by "past" I mean literally 14 months ago.

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I did and yes the terminology was embraced while not being completely correct. Mainly because the Lehman thought there were 2 different churches, "mormon" and LDS. It kind of became an if you can't beat em, join em kind of thing to stifle the confusion.
Still doesn't change the fact that the church never was officially called the "mormon church".
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGOriginally Posted By: Infadel 762My statement was to show you incorrectly assumed personal aspects of me and then dismissed them as my beliefs. If I am going to individually call someone out on something, I make certain I know exactly what I am calling them out on. You've been vague on defining your position regarding god and nondenominational spiritualism, and to be fair, nobody has asked for clarification. Maybe because nobody here is interested. So I'll ask for clarification.
Originally Posted By: Infadel 762I have been to the edges of insanity and as dark of places as most will ever see in this world. My faith is founded in bearing whiteness to my own personal restoration by a power much greater than any human power.
1) Personal restoration: what does that mean?
2) How did you come to the conclusion that a power much greater than any human power, that resolved your struggle, was un-human? How did you conclude that power was a god?
3) How did you conclude that power was good and not evil?
4) Your struggle as described sounds emotional or mental, rather than physical. How do you know your experience was not simply a delusion?


Do you know the difference between empathy and sympathy? Someone who has gone through the same hardships as another can understand that person in a way others cannot, they empathize. If one has not gone through it they can only sympathize but not truly understand. When I say you would not understand, it is not because I am talking down to you, it is because you have not been there.

I am not going to confess all my weaknesses on an open board. However my restoration is from chronic alcoholism. My greatest will power was not enough to keep me sober, every time I relapsed it got progressively worse. Intrusive thoughts of trauma, past actions and regrets wiped out anything positive in life, I know I think to much, it’s why I preferred the oblivion of alcohol. The definition of sanity is soundness of mind, of which I had none but I was not delusional. And it was more than just mental, it was a hopeless state of mind and body.

I saw my burning bush, in what God did in my heart and mind. It is not something I read about in a book, was indoctrinated into or try to push off onto others. I definitely don’t want my kids to follow my path.

So as small and insignificant as I am, in all that exists outside the comprehensible capabilities of human understanding... my 3 pound brain has perceived God do for me, what I could not do for myself.

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGOriginally Posted By: Infadel 762
Answer this simple question you keep deflecting first.

Is your entire belief system based off stuff you have read and a lack of personal experience?
The answer is not relevent to my position, but I will entertain you anyways. The answer is no. I was raised in a fundamentalist christian religion. I earned a secular degree from a state university in addition to completing a seperate 4 year religious studies program. I experienced multiple religions in multiple cities, multiple states, and multiple countries. I left organized religion some time ago but temporarily took up studying several newer religions (mormonism and scientology etc are fascinating) as a hobby and did some reading in psychology, philosiphy, and epistemology. These days I have lost most of my interest in the god question and I do other things. That good enough for you?

What I suspected, your personal experience is founded in resentments from a childhood religious upbringing. All the knowledge you are posting was learned from reading or taught in a school. I used to be spiteful at Christians as well, for telling me everything I enjoyed doing was condemning me to [beeep]. I was just not as long winded about it as you. You obviously feel a need to come on here and post all this info for a reason.... if it is not seeded in resentment, what is the reason?
 
Originally Posted By: crapshootI did and yes the terminology was embraced while not being completely correct. Mainly because the Lehman thought there were 2 different churches, "mormon" and LDS. It kind of became an if you can't beat em, join em kind of thing to stifle the confusion.
Still doesn't change the fact that the church never was officially called the "mormon church". Nobody made the claim it was. I said "mormonism" which is correct. There are over 800 branches of mormonism who accept Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, the LDS church (COJCOLDS) is just one of them and happens to be the largest branch. They are all a part of mormonism which is what I said I studied (not just the LDS church).
 
Dirtydog, enjoy h*ll. You are enthusiastically certainly going there. You found liberal scholars to tell you what you want to hear about the the Bible being a fraud. Nice work. I’m sure NPR (one of your references) would also tell you Trump should be impeached and you have no right to a firearm.

You are lost cause and a reprobate. A son of the devil.

Not everyone can be saved. Your life should be a warning to others on the danger of pride.



 
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Originally Posted By: Infadel 762All the knowledge you are posting was learned from reading or taught in a school. And personal interaction with scholars and historians and intellectuals and listening to thousands of people's stories of belief outside my formal education.

Is there a different method to gain knowledge that you know about that is better than schooling and reading and doing it myself and talking with others about their experiences?

Originally Posted By: Infadel 762My statement was to show you incorrectly assumed personal aspects of me and then dismissed them as my beliefs. If I am going to individually call someone out on something, I make certain I know exactly what I am calling them out on.

Originally Posted By: Infadel 762What I suspected, your personal experience is founded in resentments from a childhood religious upbringing.Pretty wild assumption of personal aspects you're making there. I made no such allusion to resentment of childhood upbringing.

Sincere congrats for overcoming such a personal challenge. I would never make light of your struggle or success. And although I did not ask for details, I know it takes courage to speak out about it. Your achievement is undeniably wonderful.

But plenty of people have overcome the exact same or similar challenge as yours without a god figure. I lived in the former Soviet communist USSR and spoke with a number of atheists who overcame great challenges, including alcoholism, without a god figure.

The questions I asked you still remain unanswered.

1) Personal restoration: what does that mean? 
2) How did you come to the conclusion that a power much greater than any human power, that resolved your struggle, was un-human? How did you conclude that power was a god?
3) How did you conclude that power was good and not evil?
4) How do you know your experience was not simply a delusion?
 
Originally Posted By: BJJ223Dirtydog, enjoy h*ll. You are enthusiastically certainly going there. You found liberal scholars to tell you what you want to hear about the the Bible being a fraud. Nice work. I’m sure NPR (one of your references) would also tell you Trump should be impeached and you have no right to a firearm.

You are lost cause and a reprobate. A son of the devil.

Not everyone can be saved. Your life should be a warning to others on the danger of pride.
I never used NPR as a source. That was someone else. And I'm not a liberal. I actually voted for Trump (with my nose plugged). You scare me.
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotstarting to get ugly now. 9 pages. guess it was about time. lol Interesting that the bigotry, hatred, and personal attacks are coming from the same guy preaching about Jesus and the holy scriptures...
 
With all the years of school and all the thousands of interviews of people and living in the USSR and all the study there and so on I have one question.

How do you have time to make a living?
 
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