How to deterine optimal COAL for a RRA chamber???

Sod Farmer

New member
I have a new RRA R3 Competition. In the process of working up a couple of loads, I used my Hornady Lock-N-Load OAL guage to determine a starting point for C.O.A.L.. I was surprised when I found how extremely short the throat was. I mean so short that I could not even come close to seating a 55gr Hornady SP on the cannelure. I did recall reading that RRA cuts their chambers so that the lands gradually engage the bullet as it starts down the barrel. To say it another way the lands don't have a sharp shoulder where they start, but instead ramp up to grab the bullet at the throat. I called RRA and confirmed that what I had read was correct. By design, the bullet engages the rifling as it is chambered. When I asked how to determine the appropriate COAL, I was told that they could not answer my question because of legal concerns. The chambers are cut this way to minimize the effect of COAL.

Here is part of the article that I read along with a link for the entire article:

"The .223 Wylde is popular because it combines the tight .224 throat of the .223 with a longer freebore and the shallower leade of the 5.56x45mm. We get our best accuracy when we have .0005 inches of clearance on each side of the bullet when it’s chambered. The area of the bore just forward of the cartridge case (when chambered) is called the throat, and it needs to be tight to prevent the bullet from yawing before it contacts the rifling. Next, we need enough freebore (smooth area between the case mouth and rifling) to let the cartridge chamber without the bullet getting pushed back into the case, creating dangerous pressure spikes. Last, there needs to be a bevel on the leading edge of the rifling to prevent another pressure spike that would occur if the bullet just slammed into rifling that is usually .004-inch high. A bevel on the rifling also helps keep the bullet centered in the bore, which is good for accuracy.

The .223 Wylde has that .0005-inch clearance, so it has a nice, tight throat and the gentle bevel on the lead edge of the rifling (the leade) of the 5.56 NATO. The tight throat helps keep things accurate, and the gentle leade controls pressure of even hotly loaded rounds. The .223 Wylde is one of my favorite chamberings for 5.56 guns."

http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/rock-river-arms-x-series-review/

Has anyone else run across this challenge with their RRA barrel? How did you decide on your COAL?
 
Find the lands with the bullet you want, seat them 0.010-0.015" off the lands and work your load up from a safe starting point, quit when you get the accuracy and velocity to your liking or pressure signs.

Forget about the cannelure. No need to crimp but if you want to it doesn't have to be on the cann.
 
Originally Posted By: midwestpredatorFind the lands with the bullet you want, seat them 0.010-0.015" off the lands and work your load up from a safe starting point, quit when you get the accuracy and velocity to your liking or pressure signs.

Forget about the cannelure. No need to crimp but if you want to it doesn't have to be on the cann.

What if that length is longer than available magazine space?
 
Originally Posted By: GC

What if that length is longer than available magazine space?

In that case then this VVVVV.

Originally Posted By: GCMagazine length ...

The OP stated extremely short throat and using hornady 55sp which is a fairly short nose bullet so I am assuming that a mag restriction is not an issue in this case. However, I have been wrong before.
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That throat seems super short if a 55 gr. won't make it to the cannelure ring. Seems odd to me...
 
Guys, I must not be explaining myself very well. Magazine length is not an issue. Seating the bullet so that it is not touching the lands is not possible unless the bullet is barely sticking out of the case. The article was validated as being true with my call directly with the technical people at RRA. I am convinced that the article is factual, as it mirrors my experience and was verified by RRA. The guy I spoke with at RRA told me that they receive calls like mine regularly.

So far I am using a COAL of 2.20 with a Hornady 55gr SP w/cannnelure, as recommended in the Hornady manual. This load begins touching the lands before the bolt is completely closed. Because the lands are beveled, the bullet is not being set back into the case. The load is one of those that many of us have been frustrated by. I can consistently cover four of the five holes in the target (100yds) with a dime, with a flier making the group about an inch. Velocity is just over 3,000 fps with 25.3gr of IMR 8208 from an 18" barrel. Not a bad group, but I am looking for ways to get rid of the flier. The groups are the same with 69gr Seirra HPBT match and 55 gr Nosler BT. All loads are loaded to the COAL recommended in their respective manual, and all are well into the lands when chambered. None of the bullets are being set back because of contact with the beveled lands. Hornady 75gr match bullets do not group well at all. Could be that the 1 in 8 twist isn't fast enough.

I don't know if the chanbers are cut like this on all RRA barrels or whether it is limited to the X-Series that the article covered. I hope there is someone with an X-Series rifle who will chime in.

 
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Originally Posted By: Widow maker 223How did you find out the bullet is touching the lands before the bolt closes? Did you smoke a bullet or use a sharpie?

I used a Hornady Lock-N-Load Oal guage. The bullet engages the lands at anything over 2.135 using the Hornady 55gr SP.
 
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I would take a magic marker and mark up the bullet, then chamber it and see if you can see where the lands touch the bullet. You may be getting a false reading with the Hornady gauge or just plain doing something wrong.

Make up a dummy round with no primer or powder.
 
Quote:I would take that article with a grain of salt........Really poor advice...
The theory of the article is correct. If you shoot competition, with almost any caliber, setting the bullet to the lands will give better accuracy (however pressure problems are more likely)...A tight fit of the bullet to allow less 'play' within the chamber will also increase accuracy...

Case in point with a .22lr...If you 'mash' the bullet to exactly fit the chamber in diameter, your round will be more accurate than that normally produced to 'average' specs in mass production...

The OP indicated that he is using a Hornady Lock N Load OAL gauge, but I'm wondering if he is measuring to the tip of the bullet, or the Ogive with the bullet comparator....

If you are only measuring from the tip of the bullet, that is where your problem is coming in, as the Lock N Load measures to the bullet's ogive and it's sometimes easy to get confused when initially applying the measurements...
 
Old Turtle -
In case anyone reading this is not familiar with the Hornady OAL devise, the measurement it gives is the COAL (to the tip of the bullet) using the actual bullet being used. This does take into account the ogive of that particular bullet, but a new measurement needs to be taken with each type, brand and weight of bullet because of different ogives. The following video covers how this tool is used in the first minute and 45 seconds. After that he goes of onto other related information


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OZ8u8e7mSc&list=PLqz0DG9R2Qob4I6n3TY4UE73FUHpJyb2-
 
Measuring to the tip is not consistent from bullet to bullet, even in the same lot. If you don't have one, get yourself a Hornady bullet comparator kit and use that to get a measurement to the ogive.

As far as hitting lands at 2.1xx " is WAY short and there is no need for it. All it does cause you to burn up case capacity by having to seat so deep. I'd be calling rra and telling them they need to ream the throat out a bit.
 
Midwest-
As I wrote earlier, I have spoken with RRA and confirmed that the chamber is designed so that the beveled lands engage the bullet when the round is chambered. The chamber is not like most chambers that do not use beveled lands. This chamber is cut correctly. My question is not whether or not my chamber has a problem. My question is specifically directed as to how to fine tune my COAL with this type of chamber.

I am still hoping to hear from someone else on the forum with an X-series RRA rifle.

P.S. I really like your avatar!
 
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Originally Posted By: Sod FarmerOld Turtle -
In case anyone reading this is not familiar with the Hornady OAL devise, the measurement it gives is the COAL (to the tip of the bullet) using the actual bullet being used. This does take into account the ogive of that particular bullet, but a new measurement needs to be taken with each type, brand and weight of bullet because of different ogives. The following video covers how this tool is used in the first minute and 45 seconds. After that he goes of onto other related information


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OZ8u8e7mSc&list=PLqz0DG9R2Qob4I6n3TY4UE73FUHpJyb2-

What Old Turtle told you is correct if you are using the gauge with the bullet comparator. Bill does know what the tool is. If that is the case, it measures to the Ogive not the COAL. They are different measurements. That video does not give the best explanation of how to use the tool.
 


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