Hunting coyotes with greyhounds.

I love hunting with dogs, I have hunted with terriers for nearly a decade now and have had a wonderful time doing it. I think in most sportsmen's minds it is not the dogs that bother them. They are just doing what comes natural to them and they have no sense of sportsman ship. They act out of instinct. The dogs cannot be blamed for being un-ethical.

I am torn on this subject because as a dog hunter I can relate directly with the connection between a man and his dog. It is a tight and emotional bond that cannot really be explained in print. On the other hand I think that if a dog hunter wants to continue doing what he loves he should pay close attention on how he does it and how he represents his given sport.

I agree with CDENTON a hundred percent. Gray hounds/gray hound crosses don't need training they just need exposure. If a dog wagon slid up behind a deer rather than a coyote the chase would still be on.

Where everything goes south with this kind of topic is the sporting aspect. Fun? Yes probably but sporting? A tradition? That depends on whom you talk to. Traditionally 4-WDs, CB radios and section line roads were not available. It was done a horse back or on foot. Somewhere along the lines body count replaced traditional values. But this transition is not unique only to dog hunting. It has spread as fast as the technical advancements in gear have allowed it to in all facets of hunting. Including predator calling.

For instance, in England the Jack Russell Terrier was originated by Parson John (aka Jack) Russell in the early 1800s. The Parson bread for what he called (gentlemanly) characteristics in his strain. He adamantly insisted that the terrier should not be required to hurt or kill the fox but rather nip and harass the fox in order to get it to bolt from the den. Thus allowing the hounds to continue the chase. The kill was anticlimactic compared to the sporting aspect of the chase and the legendary duels between the sly and crafty fox and the hound.

Like in so much of hunting anymore technology replaces skills and body counts replace sportsmanship and maybe even the appreciation of nature. In our own way we are all a little guilty of it.

Good hunting.

Q,
 
in 1965 (when i was a sophomore in hi school) i was hunt'n jacks when in the distance i spotted a cloud of dust with a larger cloud of dust trailing with an even larger cloud of dust following up.

one coyote being pursued by 5 or 6 dogs being chased by an old beatup pickup.

when the dust converged at a single spot i worked my way toward them and chatted with a group of old geezers who invited me to grab the headache rack and hang on!

i had a blast the rest of the afternoon and became hooked. purchased a greyhound pup that weekend....surprise,Mom and Dad!!!!!! i continued tagging along with these fine gentlemen til Victor was old enough to join the chase.

early mornings,dusk and evening hunts.....my friends hardly ever saw me on the weekends. nite time hunts....HUNTS....were especially exciting. 2 or 3 pickups driving thru the nite with the dogs leaning out over the bed with mouths drooling just wait'n for a jack or coyote to be highlighted by the headlites.

and then all [beeep] breaks loose when the dogs bailed out....trucks still rolling....and the run was on! at nite sometimes the pursued won when a quick turn left the headlites pointed north & the pursued was heading west. how we kept from driving into each other in the dustcloud or into a wash i'll never know. NEVER had a dog injured even when a fence stopped the vehicles but the dogs kept going thru the strands.....beautiful sight watching a greyhound sail between the strands!

eventually i acquired a half breed greyhound-Spot-who was quick in the turns. complimented Victor who was a straight-liner and incredibly fast and had great endurance.

but when uncle sam allowed me to spend 719 days in a far-away exotic tropical landscape my Mom turned my dogs into housepets. (they were gettin the usual greyhound joint and eye issues).Spot lived to be 13 and Victor lasted til 16. they still had fun tho......with the neighborhood cats who loved to turn the soil over in my Mom's flower beds.

i never got back into the game......i had changed.....the old fine gentlemen were mostly gone.....and the legal aspect of our society had changed.

but it's a wonderful memory and was a fine tho different way to HUNT.
 
and also for the uninitiated or uninformed......the chase'e wasn't "torn to shreds". i never witnessed a blood bath except to Victor when he cornered a bobcat in the salt cedars and didn't have sense/experience not to go alone after the cat. (he was still a pup & he won and wore those scars well)

rabbits or coyotes were dispatched with neck bites. the dogs then would worry the critter but never NEVER dismantled it or ate it or ripped it to shreds.

they would just stand there with lungs heaving & tongues rolling waiting for us to drive up or walk up. all the greyhounds would be "smiling" with bright eyes just wait'n for another chase to begin.

just doing what their genetics told'em and loving it.
 
Why would it be any worse or different than hunting coon, rabbits, mountain lions, bear, wild boar, or any other animal hunted with dogs in this country? All of these animals can be hunted without dogs, and many can be called in as well. Is rabbit hunting with pair of beagles not hunting? Or coon hunting with a blue tick? Just another way to skin a cat I say.

I am not interested in it myself, but more power to those that want to as long as it is legal.
 
I think where most people draw the distinction is that coyotes are first ran down or up on with pickups before they dump the hounds on them. The hounds do not hunt them they just catch what the pickup hunters run down. For most animals we hunt for sport it is illegal to use CB radios or airplanes to spot the game and it is illegal to run animals down in pickups. The average Joe hunter would find it distasteful to see two or three pickups running down a deer across a stubble field and then dumping 5 or six dogs out to kill it.

There is no real reason that we should not be allowed to hunt deer in this manor as it was done long before we started chasing coyotes.

It is very easy for man to kill animals. We have every advantage imaginable over the animals yet it is our drive in life to try to find better/easier and more efficient ways to kill them. There are many laws on the books that help keep a balance between technology and fair chase.

We have to plug our shotguns and are limited to 10 gauges or smaller. We cannot shoot ducks on the roost or deer with a spot light. We cannot hunt elk from helicopters or antelope with snowmobiles. The list goes on and on. It is not that the average hunter is anti dog it is that they are pro fair-chase. To many hunters and non-hunters this method of "hunting" does not fit into there model of fair chase.

Laws are also in place to protect the animals from undo suffering. They apply mandatory caliber minimums on rifles and draw weight restrictions on bows, they enforce hazing laws and a host of other measures to ensure that hunters do not cause unneeded suffering of animals. The only reason for all of these silly laws are because people have the idea that if it is legal then go for it and have fun. That is what it is REALLY all about.

You may not agree with it but to understand the animosity towards hound hunters you need to understand that mainstream hunters relate to the ethical standards that they are legally obligated to fallow.

I think that sportsmen would be completely unified on this subject if the houndsmen would employ there dogs in a more traditional fashion. I may be wrong?

Good hunting.

Q,
 
While I don't want to hunt coyotes with grey hounds myself, I do support the hound hunter as a whole. I don't have any problem with them using hounds. But what gets a lot of landowners mad, is this game some play around here. They release the hounds from the road onto our lands and then claim "right to retrieve". This is crap, and all it has done is get some grey hounds shot. I know everyone is not like this and don't hold this against other hound hunters, but it does get old.
 
When I was hunting coyote with dogs it was in farm country. I don't think you understand the sport, greyhounds don't chase cattle or horses.The other thing you don't drive around in someones pastures looking for dogs. News flash we hunted Oklahoma Kansas and the Texas panhandle all fram snd ranch land. All private land, you stay on county roads there is a section line every mile. The other thing when you turn your dogs out and they cross a fence,guess what thats not trespassing there is no trespassing on dogs. Yes you can shoot at someones dogs but if you kill one you will pay the man for it. Why because most hound hunter have there dogs on the Tax Roll.I just don't think some of you understand the sport. Not eveyone blows a call. If you ever get the chance to hunt with someone that runs greyhounds try it, be opened minded.
 
CDENTON
I'm not against dogs at all. Use a brittany for birds, and rabbits I see no difference in that and chasing yotes or even deer with dogs but a sending your dogs into private land is trespassing as much as you yourself stepping foot into the land.
 
That is another point I was going to make. Trespass laws do not apply to dogs and in most areas they and their handlers are completely protected from prosecution. Like in any form of hunting there are some good respectable guys that do it right and there are some slob hunters that use this law to their advantage and cast out wherever and whenever they please. When confronted they can just laugh because they are within the law. It is those kinds of hunters that give everyone a bad name.

Good hunting.

Q,
 
All depends on your state laws. Most states you can't shoot a dog just for trespassing. But all any rancher (in Nebraska) has to do is say "it was harassing my cattle" and nothing is going to happen to him for shooting that dog. My family has been to court over this and didn't have to pay any damages. Now on the other hand. The hunter did have to shell out some money as when his hounds chased the coyote though our pasture, it spooked the cattle and they blew through the fence. We received $1500 in damages!

Many "right to retrieve" laws say that the hunter must make every effert to contact the landowner before entering his land to retrieve his hound. If no effert is made, it is trespassing! Some states give the hound a pass, but don't allow the hunter to enter the property. Some give both the hound and the hunter a free pass. So it really depends on how your state laws are wrote.

I understand that hounds don't know that crossing a fence is bad and I don't blame the hound or the sport. I do blame the handler though. I have been around coonhounds for a long time and the guy's I hunt with have had very little problems (some, but not many) with dogs getting onto the wrong place. It happends, I know that. But if it happens a lot, then you are a crappy handler/hunter.

It really comes down to this, show respect for us and our lands and you will get shown respect back (maybe even a place to hunt). Treat us and our lands like crap, you'll get treated like crap! Now after all that, I do support "good" houndsman and will never be against their right to use hounds. Just show some respect to the landowner!
 
I guess I kind of miss the sport aspect of 5 or 6 dogs chasing one coyote to death.Kind of like you getting in a boxing ring with 5 or six other boxers.One dog on one coyote ,now that would be intetesting and sporting if he was your dog.
I have seen pickup hunters chase a coyote until he can no longer run and just gives up.May even roll over or try to hide under the truck. Then someone gets out and shoots him at a few feet. I fail to see the sport of that and don't regard it as any form of hunting.
Also many farmers have the same regard for their land as one does for his back yard. A lot of time and effort is spent caring and grooming no matter the size of the farm.Sending pickups or dogs across uninvited will be very coldly received.Most of the time the guys who will drive all over my farms without permission do not have even one acre I could drive all over and if I stepped in their back yard, they would have me arrested.
 
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I guess I kind of miss the sport aspect of 5 or 6 dogs chasing one coyote to death.Kind of like you getting in a boxing ring with 5 or six other boxers.One dog on one coyote ,now that would be intetesting and sporting if he was your dog.
I have seen pickup hunters chase a coyote until he can no longer run and just gives up.May even roll over or try to hide under the truck. Then someone gets out and shoots him at a few feet. I fail to see the sport of that and don't regard it as any form of hunting.



Not to single you out but this is a perfect example of your idea of sport versus (insert name here)'s idea of sport.

What size scope do you have on your rifle? How far can you shoot a coyote? Do you ever hunt with a partner setting down wind to fool a coyotes nose? Do you use electronic calls? Do you use camoflage? Do you use scent blocker or cover up? All of these could be considered non-sporting by some. If you want sporting, put up all your fancy gear and get a stick or rock and go kill coyotes. Now that's fair chase.

What I'm trying to say is we all use everything we can to give ourselves an advantage. Multiple dogs on one coyote ensures a faster kill with less danger to the dogs which translates into lower costs and more hunting time.

I don't hunt coyotes with hounds but have successfully killed many hogs using hounds. The same argument goes on in that world. People claiming it isn't fair to the animal and isn't sporting enough. I've always wanted to invite someone like that along and once a hog is caught, hand them the knife and tell them to go ahead and finish it. I bet the sport would suddenly become more "sporting" to them then. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
When we was ranching we hand over 18 thousand acers of prime Bobwhite quail hunting. I never once turned anyone down that asked me to hunt on it. I would get people out of the big city but it didn't matter to me. I always said a man that asked first would take care of it. That was the sameway when we hunted with hounds, we would ask first.
Maybe 2 or 3 weeks before we ever hunted that country.
With that being said now that I live in Nv. About 2yrs. ago I was talking to an old man in the middle of the road one day, so I ask him if cared if I hunted on his place. He look me up and down and then said you are only the 3rd person that has ever ask me that. Then he said I could hunt everthing he owned, so I asked how much ground he had. to my suprise he said over 1 millon acers. Then he asked if I had a map of Nevada? I said yes,and showed me what he had and where I could hunt or trap. That was over 2yrs. now and I haven't looked at all of his country. This country has Elk,Mule Deer,Speed goats and erery game bird this state has to offer.So you just never know who your talking with sitting in the middle of a country the road.
 
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Obviously, with those kind of numbers, you guys were into some very coyote rich country.
And I congratulate you/your friends for their success.
I have a lot to say about this subject, but since I only have 5 minutes left that I can use a computer tonight, I'll make a real post of my thoughts later this week. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif



Ok, since I now have some free time to post my reply I will.
Some of what I have to say may have already been touched on here & there. And probably with a whole lot more tact & writing ability than I will show.
But here is my take on this subject. And yes, some will assuredly say that I'm biased. I believe I'm actually just more open-minded than most.........

Here in Kansas, hunting coyotes...whether ethical or not...from a truck, using greyhounds to catch them with...has been a "time honored tradition" back at least to WW2.
Some have wondered about "what part of sending 4-5 dogs chasing 1 coyote is the hunting?". For those, I will try to explain.
The "hunting" aspect actually refers to the guys driving around pastures, creeks, "weed patches" & CRP trying to motivate a coyote to show itself & run. I can already hear the masses saying, "you call that hunting?" To that, I can only state that unless you have grown up in an evironment where this type of hunting has been done for years, you will never understand. Just as most of the guys who use greyhounds, (my Dad included), will never understand how we can enjoy sitting on our butts calling & call that hunting.
Some complain about "the gang of dogs" killing the coyote as being inhumane to the coyote. The end game/killing is just the climax. And once the coyote is dead, most dogs will quit fighting & stand back to wait on the men to show up. It's instinct. They are doing what is natural.
And it's a lot more "humane" than say...a pack of wolves "ganging up" to kill 1 deer or elk, & then tearing it to pieces. But again, the wolves are doing what wolves do.
I won't presume to speak for the guys in the Houndsmen forum, since I know most of them hunt a different way, with different breeds of dogs.
But ask a true greyhound man what the BEST part of hunting this way is. Almost to a man, their answers will be, "watching the dogs race". Yes, it's disappointing if they fail to catch the coyote. But no more than it is when us callers miss the shot.
For me, the shot/death is kind of anti-climatic. The fun & excitement is watching the coyotes come in.
Some berate the guys for driving across the pastures. Other than the fact we don't leave as big a "footprint", do we callers not also traverse the pastures in search of coyotes?

I have read people complaining that these guys drive anywhere they please. And "dogs are trespassing".
Ok, maybe I just know the right hunters. I don't know. I've known several in my life. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
But, none that I know, go onto property they do not have prior approval to be on. {Although, it is getting harder to find places for permission, due to new housing & new landowners who are moving from the city & hate hunting in all it's forms.}
And the guys I know will not turn the dogs loose, if the coyote is near property that they do not have permission for. It may upset them, but they let that coyote go, to chase another day.
And these guys I know, won't set foot, truck or dog in a pasture that has cattle in it. They do not want to spook the cattle, or have the dogs chase the coyote thru the middle of a herd.
And while on the subject of "chasing"...someone posted that he had seen truck hunters "chase a coyote until he was so tired he curled up under the truck when they stopped". To that observation, I say, whomever you saw do this didn't have a clue what they were doing.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif But that's a type of hunting from trucks that belongs in a thread of it's own. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

It's a fact:
Most guys who use a call, do not like guys who use greyhounds.
Most guys that use greyhounds don't like guys who shoot coyotes from moving trucks with shotguns, (although other than the fact of using guns instead of dogs is the only difference in how the hunting is done.) And most of these guys absolutely despise guys who call.
And if you once were a dog hunter, but now call, you may be considered by some to be a "traitor". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
All of this is no different than "that guy who only uses an ecall", & thinks those that use hand calls are weird. Or visa-versa.
Or the guy who only bowhunts his deer, & can't understand why anyone would want to use a rifle.
It all boils down to what you've been brought up around, & what you know. Come to think about it, this same thing applies to anti-hunters/animal rights people.

Jacob: Before you decide to start hunting this way, talk to your friends. Find out exactly how expensive hunting with greyhounds actually is. Because believe me, it isn't anywhere close to being cheap. Fun yes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

For anyone who doesn't know & wonders how I feel I have the "right" to voice the above statements...here's what makes me justified to do so:
I am a 3rd generation coyote hunter.
My Grandad hunted coyotes w/greyhounds from the mid-'40s until the late-'60s.
My Dad hunted w/greyhounds from '55 until '79. At that point he decided the maintenance of the dogs was too expensive, & instead he started having me shoot them w/shotgun, while keeping the rest of the style of hunting the same.
A pair of my great-uncles started using greyhounds in the mid-'50s. The Uncle who is still alive, still hunts with them to this day, at age 71.
In '72, at age 8, I started going with Dad.
From then on, it was also my responsiblity to feed/water each dog every morning & night.
Even after we changed to using a shogun, any time I had the chance to ride with a dog hunter, I did. BECAUSE I ENJOYED WATCHING THE DOGS RUN, more than I felt any enjoyment from any type of killing.
So from '72-'97, there was not a winter when I didn't get to hunt with greyhounds at least a few times.
From '80 until Feb. '96, I also spent 95% of my winter weekends hunting from a truck...w/Dad driving & me hanging out the window shooting coyotes at 30-60 yds with a shotgun.
I started learning how to call in Dec. '95.
So you see, I can see all aspects of any of these types of hunting.
And I feel that having hunted coyotes for 36+ years, gives me the "right" to speak.
I also respect anyone else who does not agree with my thinking, & has a differing opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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While it is legal, the whole deal kinda sucks IF you are a caller on SMALLER areas of state/public hunting lands like myself and a few friends. From sun up saturday to sun down sunday the game areas we try to call are flooded with trucks (CB antennas/dog boxes/guys on the sides of the roads everywhere/tc receivers waving out the windows). So far, been road blocked, had dogs turned out to run tracks where we were obviously calling and had several set ups screwed up because of the dogs. Yes, I know public land, the catch is, there is alot of private land mixed with the state land, yet they run anyhow. New tactic is basically get an early start calling on saturdays and when the crowds show up we might get a shot at a coyote pushed through our stands! With the small territory, when compared to something like pheasant hunting with a dog, it would be like if someone turned out a supercharged crazy ranging flushing dog to put up pheasants all over heck, then the the other hunters on the same land get the chance to get the leftovers. On larger lands, where paths don't cross, it's probably not much of an issue.
 
RC2125... I'm truly sorry to hear that you are being treated that way.
Here in Ks., true "public-use" lands, such as wildlife areas around lakes & such are off-limits to greyhound hunters.
As are, what we call WIHA (Walk-In Hunter's Access) areas, which are private land leased for public WALK-IN ONLY hunting.
If these guys have the stupidity to try to take dog wagons into these areas, they WILL get caught & prosecuted in court.
The only people, in a vehicle, who are allowed to drive on WIHA are the landowner & the game warden.
 
Will,
You couldn't have summed it up any better! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

This type of hunting is kind of like a radio program or TV program that offends you--if you don't like it, tune it out.

With that said, I have known dog hunters that were not very ethical, and ones that were very ethical. Here in the Central part of Kansas, I still have to overcome those old ghosts when I approach landowners and ask if I could coyote hunt on their land. I have to do some fast explaining that what I do is call, not hunt them as they used to be accustomed to.

I think the dog hunters around here at least, are a dying breed. It takes a lot of money to take care of the dogs properly. Couple that with high fuel prices and low fur prices and I think some have just given up.

Like Will indicates--here in Kansas, all public access is, for the most part, walk-in only. 100% of the dog hunting happened here on private land.

Regards,
Tim
 
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Sorry Rayb but your analogy of a coyote outnumbered by greyhounds is no less unsporting than wearing camoflauge does not fly .
So why do "sporting events" have teams of equal numbers. .All the things you mention that may be considered non sporting by some(such as camo,scopes,coverscent,etc.) are probably not considered unsporting by anyone here.
You are simply trying to defend something you do with some very thin and unrelated arguments.
So if you had one greyhound you would turn it out on a group of eight coyotes and consider the results "sporting." Do as you wish but you will need better arguments to sway me.
 


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