Hydraulic shock
- Thread starter Ran6er
- Start date
Originally Posted By: MPFDI stopped believing in hydraulic shock last year. The year before I shot a 10 point buck with a .243 using 85 grain Sierra Gameking @ 3300 fps. Took it clear off its feet... I sat there a minute and then started to gather my stuff and walk up to it as I stood up and shouldered my rifle the deer jumped up and ran off. I was sure I hit so hard that it would die from hydraulic shock even if i didn't find it. Last year I killed that buck with my bow... His shoulder was full of copper fragments. If a force big enough to take him off his feet was not enough hydraulic shock to kill it I don't believe the shock a big enough force to kill an animal...
shock still means nothing if the bullet hits meat and bone and does not enter the body cavity. the innards are very fluid and do not respond to high velocity objects well. however, a shoulder with bone and muscle can absorb that high velocity impact without transferring it to anything vital.
anecdotal evidence does not change reality.
from what i understand, the article is about slow moving pistol bullets, NOT high velocity hunting type bullets. apples and cantaloupes!
shock still means nothing if the bullet hits meat and bone and does not enter the body cavity. the innards are very fluid and do not respond to high velocity objects well. however, a shoulder with bone and muscle can absorb that high velocity impact without transferring it to anything vital.
anecdotal evidence does not change reality.
from what i understand, the article is about slow moving pistol bullets, NOT high velocity hunting type bullets. apples and cantaloupes!
MPFD
Well-known member
Hydraulic shock is about blood vessels popping in the brain due to the bullets impact and the dissipation of it's energy through the body. (ie why some guy shoot for the neck) If your talking about it applying to bullet entering the organs and causing tissue damage, then your talking apples and cantaloupes...
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: MPFDHydraulic shock is about blood vessels popping in the brain due to the bullets impact and the dissipation of it's energy through the body. (ie why some guy shoot for the neck) If your talking about it applying to bullet entering the organs and causing tissue damage, then your talking apples and cantaloupes...
Actually, hydraulic shock is about the impact and energy release being so severe that the whole central nervous system goes into collapse and does not function. The animal just stops functioning immediately and falls into a warm pile on the ground.
The blood vessels in the brain have little (or nothing) to do with it. If the vessels break, or just stop flowing blood, the result is the same, brain cell hypoxia. That takes the same amount of time whether the animal is shot or decapitated.
When the animal is technically "dead" is a theoretical, academic and moot point. When it drops, the internal organs stop functioning, and it does not move (except for nervous twitchs) it is dead for 99.9% of the world.
Actually, hydraulic shock is about the impact and energy release being so severe that the whole central nervous system goes into collapse and does not function. The animal just stops functioning immediately and falls into a warm pile on the ground.
The blood vessels in the brain have little (or nothing) to do with it. If the vessels break, or just stop flowing blood, the result is the same, brain cell hypoxia. That takes the same amount of time whether the animal is shot or decapitated.
When the animal is technically "dead" is a theoretical, academic and moot point. When it drops, the internal organs stop functioning, and it does not move (except for nervous twitchs) it is dead for 99.9% of the world.
MPFD
Well-known member
Is the brain not in control of the central nervous system? Hydraulics is transfer of energy through fluid. How can brain damage due to fluid pressurization cause by trauma (from energy) not really be the same as hydraulic shock? A spine shot (even with a bow) is pretty much gonna shut down the central nervous system, but may not kill quickly. Only severe brain trauma can cause the complete shutdown of the central nervous system. Like a trauma induced stroke..
an arrow to the spine of an animal like a deer or an elk does NOT shut down the CNS. it is not a fatal hit unless you count starvation. unless you are talking about hitting the spine at the base of the skull, another arrow through the heart or lungs is required to kill it. i have seen numerous spine shots on elk with a rifle, the spine is shattered, the animal is paralized but is NOT dead and will live for a long time unless the femoral artery was also wiped out.
this theory that there is hydraulic shock to the brain from a chest shot is a new one for me, and i do not believe it for an instant. the circulatory system in an animal is not rigid, whatever pressure is generated in the chest will dissipate long before it gets anywhere near the brain.
this theory that there is hydraulic shock to the brain from a chest shot is a new one for me, and i do not believe it for an instant. the circulatory system in an animal is not rigid, whatever pressure is generated in the chest will dissipate long before it gets anywhere near the brain.
FWIW, I recall an article in one of my hunting rags a few years ago in which a autopsical study was done in coordination with a bison cull out West somewhere - private ground as I recall. The animals culled were all shot in the chest with rifles, and details were recorded as to which animal got shot with what, how, angle, distance, entrance, exit (if any), animal's reaction, etc., etc. Then autopsies were performed on the animals. One thing that stuck with me from that article was that they determined that most of the animals that dropped at the shot (obviously not all did) had broken blood vessels in the brain even though shot in the chest. IIRC, theory was along the lines that the bullets possibly impacted in the DRT animals at just the right time just after the animal inhaled and blood pressure and tension in the body was at it's highest, and assisted in the "shock" busting vessels all the way to the brain and shutting their CNS down right now. Their study, not mine. A quick search did not turn the article up for me just now. And I'm not even sure which mag it was in, but the American Hunter sticks in my mind.
lyotehunter
New member
i don't know what it would be called but when i hit a coyote in the heart lung area whit my 17rem. 25gr.berger there is nothing inside that is in one piece it usually looks like a high speed blender just left.and there are just pieces of the bullet left if you can find them.
It was very apparent that P.O. Ackley was impressed with hydrostatic shock and the 17 calibers.
I remember watching a video where a Bobcat, in slow motion, gets hit with a 17 caliber bullet. The bullet did not exit, but the Cat looked like someone had injected it with a sudden blast of air, then just as suddenly, let the air out. DRT, no twitch and a real gelled mess inside. Pretty impressive to say the least.
I remember watching a video where a Bobcat, in slow motion, gets hit with a 17 caliber bullet. The bullet did not exit, but the Cat looked like someone had injected it with a sudden blast of air, then just as suddenly, let the air out. DRT, no twitch and a real gelled mess inside. Pretty impressive to say the least.
Hydraulic shock, hydrostatic shock, I don't care....if I need to be concerned with having a follow up shot then I'm looking for a different bullet. This happened the first two years I went deer(whitetail/muley) hunting. Was using 130g Hornady SST's from a 270, had 40-60% weight retention, and wasn't impressed with the stopping power. Third year I tried out some Barnes TSX's and had DRT results on two does and a decent buck. Haven't tried anything different since. Same results from 60 yards to almost 500. Personally I'm not a fan of v-max on anything, but have had great results with Hornady sp's and spsx's in 223 and 22-250 on prarie dogs.
spiderman
New member
Case in point....last winter we were daytime coon calling. Calling on a huge soft maple tree that was bent over at a 45 degree angle. Caller running ,25 pound coon comes out of far end of tree and starts to come down trunk towards the ground. Thirty yard shot broadside just behind front shoulder with .17 super mag. rimfire. Coon stops for part of second , head tips down , does summer sault SP ? and drops 4 feet to large (20 inch) limb below. Lays there on its back balanced perfect. Any wiggle or twitch would have made it fall to ground but it never move once. Coons that size don't die easy and if shot in head , death throws would have made it fall. Amazing round and results. 20 grain bullet and no pass through. Just what the doctor orderd !!! Jim
coolhand
New member
Guys, I know most everybody on here is probably smarter than me, but...I have taken quite a few Yotes and Bobcats with my 17 Remington and 30 Kindlers the last couple of years. 90% of the time they never even twitch. I mean instant death, just freeze and fall over. I shot a Bobcat in the chest at 75 yds. He died instantly with not a mark on his body but the tiny inlet wound, but his eyes were blown completely out of the sockets. If that is not hydrostatic shock, I don't know what is.
Chupathingy
New member
Hydrostatic shock is very much a real thing, but like all other things, there is a point of diminished returns. It will be a contributing factor in EVERY scenerio, but it will NOT be the deciding factor in EVERY scenerio. A .224 caliber will unlikely result in a DRT CNS disruption in a 1500lb animal, but a 7.62 caliber properly placed in a 1500lb critter will fold it up like a lawn chair.
If you think Hydrostatic shock to be a myth, it is very telling of your experience and worthiness of credence.
Chupa
If you think Hydrostatic shock to be a myth, it is very telling of your experience and worthiness of credence.
Chupa
it is always amazing to me that anecdotal evidence seems to turn to indisputable fact in these threads.
usually it starts out with something like "my uncle jimbo's brother in law's ex-wife once shot a deer with a 270 winchester" the thing ran into the next county, and because it did not fall over right there, the 270 winchester is determined to be worthless on deer!
just because one bullet shot at one deer resulted in one outcome, does NOT mean that any conclusion can be drawn. every one who has killed any volume of animals knows that sometimes a bullet will work wonders and then other times it seems to have failed. sometimes it is the shot placement, sometimes the particular animal, sometimes the position of the moon, who knows what it is. i know from personal experience that i do not like some bullets for coyotes and others i really like, but i have never found a bullet that does the exactly the same thing every time.
there are plenty on this forum that curse v-max bullets, but that is my favorite bullet for coyotes out of a 223. the design of the bullet contributes to the shock that so wonderfully puts them down!
usually it starts out with something like "my uncle jimbo's brother in law's ex-wife once shot a deer with a 270 winchester" the thing ran into the next county, and because it did not fall over right there, the 270 winchester is determined to be worthless on deer!
just because one bullet shot at one deer resulted in one outcome, does NOT mean that any conclusion can be drawn. every one who has killed any volume of animals knows that sometimes a bullet will work wonders and then other times it seems to have failed. sometimes it is the shot placement, sometimes the particular animal, sometimes the position of the moon, who knows what it is. i know from personal experience that i do not like some bullets for coyotes and others i really like, but i have never found a bullet that does the exactly the same thing every time.
there are plenty on this forum that curse v-max bullets, but that is my favorite bullet for coyotes out of a 223. the design of the bullet contributes to the shock that so wonderfully puts them down!