sureshotshane
New member
Hello all, firstly I’ll introduce myself. For those who don’t care for intro’s skip to the question in paragraph 4. I’m Shane, I was unfortunate enough to have been born into the state of California and have to stay here at least 2 more years as my wife makes her way through graduate school. I love all forms of hunting; I’m foremost a big game hunter, my niche in the hunting world is backpack blacktail deer hunting and working ridiculously hard to kill average bucks and bulls. I hunt deer and bear in CA, muleys in Montana, whitetail in Northern ID and Elk in central Idaho. Those are the every year hunts that I feel like I can’t live without, but this year I also have a Utah deer tag I’m looking forward too. I also put in for various other states that I’m still waiting on. When it’s not big game season I always look forward to hunting grouse, quail, and ducks but most recently I’ve been trying to get serious about predator hunting. I’ve always been super interested, I’m a wildlife biologist by training; I’ve trapped various different types of predators for research and tagging purposes through past employment; a couple years ago I also worked a stint as a predator biologist for an organization contracted by the Navy, which included mostly predator control, that was a lot of fun! Lately though I’ve been working more in Hydrology and not in wildlife biology.
When I was young I was enthralled by the idea of trapping and so my mom took me in to the Fish and Game to take the test to get my trapping license, I got my first trapping license at 13 or 14, which isn’t the easiest process in California. I didn’t do a lot of trapping, mostly because it is costly to have to use box traps. But last year I decided to get my trapping license again, thinking that I’d pony up the money for some decent box traps, or buy the materials to make some, but I didn’t buy any, so I never ended up doing any trapping (after spending the $110 on the license) so I’m debating on whether I want to get my trapping license this year or the alternative is using the money I would to get some traps and instead buy myself a nice dedicated predator gun and caller. The budget only allows one. Since you can’t trap bobcats in California anyways I’m leaning more toward the hunting route, instead of trapping. Bobcat is absolutely the most interesting quarry to me, second would be coyotes but I like the idea of coyote hunting because it’s open all year. I buy bobcat tags that just sit in my pocket every year; a few years ago I bought a couple Carver Calls and used them here and there but never to seriously and never once did I call anything in. Partly because I had no clue what I was doing but also I think I just wasn’t in a good area for it. I recently moved closer to an area with a larger population of coyotes so I decided to go out recently for a dedicated coyote search. I wouldnt really call it a hunt, more like scouting but I did bring along my 17 HMR in case of any close encounters with a coyote. I was pretty stoked on the first evening just before sunset I got a yote howling about 300 yards away, I made a little to much movement and it busted me. No big deal though, it was fun to get a response from the calls and given the stand I was at I don’t think I would have gotten him within 100 yards, which was my personal limit considering the gun I was using. The next morning I set up only 200 yards from the evening stand and almost immediately got a response in the form of a howl. I saw 2 coyotes in an opening at 258 yards, they went into some brush, I didn’t think they were scared so I kept calling and not 5 minutes later I looked behind me and had a coyote 147 yards away. Given the wind was gusting pretty bad, I knew the shot would likely be no good. It was fun to actually have something respond to the call. I also am fascinated with Mammalogy, I want to ad some skulls and skins to my collection, no head shots. I do all my own tanning and skull mounts. So when coyotes are prime, pelt damage is a main concern for me, and same goes for bobcats. My father also really enjoys skulls and skins and would make good gifts to him.
Most of my hunting will be here in California, but as I mentioned I am out of state for other hunts so what I’m looking forward to is hunting my grandfathers ranch for coyotes and wolves in Northern Idaho. He truly hates them and he would be pleased to have me take care of some. Also in Central Idaho there is quite an extensive population of wolves where we elk hunt, I buy a tag but I never actually pursued them. I did howl some up last year as a joke to my elk hunting buddy. We both killed our bulls way down a canyon and we had to pack the elk 3/4 mile and 1200 feet in elevation uphill to where we staged the meat to than make the 9 mile pack out to the truck. It took 3 days, but I’m very protective of game meat, and so we packed our first of 3 loads of meat to the staging area uphill, and all we had were sleeping bags and sacks of elk, and I told my buddy that we needed to basically sleep on the meat because I’ll bet there are wolves right down the canyon. He gawked, and I half jokingly said “seriously, watch” and I howled a big long sequence but before I could finish my howl we got cut off by a pack of wolves not to far off. I had one hand on my elk steaks that night. In addition, I buy a Nevada Hunting License every year because I like to put in for deer, elk, sheep points so it would be nice to actually use the license for something, I’m only 2.5 hours from Nevada now so I’m planning to Chukar and Coyote hunt that way this year. Where we hunt in Montana ( Missouri River Breaks) has its fair share of coyotes. I’d really like to be geared up for predator hunting before we leave for that trip in late October.
So the questions I have are regarding bullet accuracy and performance given that I have to use non-lead. I currently own a .270 and a .243 Winchester, along with the 17 HMR. My 243 has a 1:9.25 twist and my .270 has a 1:10 twist. I’m planning to reload some ammo for the .243 to get me by until I can get a different rifle. The reason I want a smaller rifle is pelt damage and I am really leaning toward a .204 Ruger, the guns I’m looking at are the Savage 12 Low Profile (not sure if I want the thumbhole stock or not), Ruger Hawkeye Varmint Target, or Ruger Hawkeye Predator (all with 1:12 twist). Looking around at Midway I see they offer 4 bullets for the .204 Ruger in non-lead. 1) Barnes VG 26 Grain 2) Nosler Ballistic Tip 32 Grain 3) Lehigh Defense 30 Grain and 4) Hornady Varmint 24 Grain (not actually available). I want to lean towards the Barnes because I shoot the TSX in my .270 and it’s been pretty darn good but a varmint bullet is far different than a 140 grain TSX on elk. I want to hear some peoples real world experience with the above bullets as far as accuracy and performance? In addition, given the 1:12 twist of the .204 would the lighter bullets work well? I know that the equivalent weight copper or alloy bullet is longer than lead but the 26 grain Barnes even though non-lead seems light for a 1:12 twist, which I want to talk more about below. Any opinions on the make/model of gun would be appreciated as well. Also, I’m trying to work up a load for my .243 that will do minimum pelt damage in the mean time. There are 9 non-lead options I see on Midway, some are the TSX and TTSX which seem quite expensive for the job and probably will not give me much pelt left (prove me wrong though if you know better than me, because I’m only assuming), I know bullet placement matters. Looking at the lighter varmint bullets, that leaves me with Barnes Varmint Grenade 62 grain, Nosler Ballistic Tip 55 grain, as well as some Lehigh Defense which I’m totally not familiar with. I would be open to any non-lead .243 bullet that is accurate while producing the least pelt damage ( even though I know full well a .243 is not ideal if concerned for pelts). So again real life experience with some non-lead .243 bullets would be awesome. Ordinarily, a 55 or 62 grain bullet would seem awfully light for a 1:9.25 twist like my rifle. I usually shoot 80-90 grain bullets. As already mentioned, these aren’t lead bullets so they are longer. Has anyone come up with an equivalent copper/alloy/non-lead comparison or chart or something that would work best for the barrel caliber and twist? I know Barnes Load Data says they used a 1:10” for the .243 but that’s pretty vague. So I did some math, it seems many would agree that for a .243 with 1:9.25 twist your good to shoot 80-95 traditional jacketed lead bullets. Without getting to fancy, copper is approximately 21 percent lighter than lead. Now, I know lead bullets usually contain a small amount of copper jacket, but for simplicity sake, does it stand to reason that a 50 grain copper bullet would be approximately 21 percent longer than it’s 50 grain lead counterpart? So say a 1:9.25” twist is usually good for 80–95 grain bullets out of my .243, could I extend my math to say that for non-lead ammo 63-75 grains would shoot best. Also it seems you could reason that you wouldn’t be able to shoot non-lead bullets that are on the heavy side 85+ grains because they would be to long and need a tighter twist? IF someone has more precise mathematics than what I laid out, let me know? I bought some Barnes 110 grain TTSX for my .270 and I’m wondering if they will be any good, not for coyote hunting but for reloading fun; if you used the 21 percent larger a 110 grain monolithic copper bullet would be about the same size as a lead 135-140 grain bullet so perhaps my .270 will shoot them just fine, I have yet to reload them but it also got me thinking about the .270 Barnes 85 grain bullets they have, which seem entirely to small for 1:10 twist I have. In all likely hood 21 percent larger is overestimating how much larger equivalent weight copper bullet is vs lead, if I had to spitball it’s probably more like 15 percent. Also I didn’t get into different alloys, not all non-lead is copper. I really hope someone can point me in the right direction regarding .204 bullets that are non-lead and worth a [beeep], I will seriously have to consider nixing the .204 Ruger idea in favor of 22-250 or .223 Rem (more likely 22-250) because they have more options for non-lead but at the risk of pelt damage. I want to make it work though if possible.
Apologies for the lengthy intro and first post. I’ve been doing my research but still there are questions left. For those without the patience to read through the entire post, the gist of it is.
1) Anyone have real life examples on non-lead .204 Ruger bullets that perform and are accurate? Specifically Barnes VG 26 grain or Nosler Ballistic Tip 32 grains, or?
2) Opinions on Savage 12 Low Pro, Ruger Hawkeye Predator, Ruger Hawkeye VT in .204 Ruger?
3) Any experience with non-lead .243 bullets that keep pelt damage down and accurate? Specifically the Barnes Varmint Grenade 62 grains and Nosler Ballistic Tip 55 grains, or?
Thanks from a disgruntled Californian biding his time till he can move to Idaho.
When I was young I was enthralled by the idea of trapping and so my mom took me in to the Fish and Game to take the test to get my trapping license, I got my first trapping license at 13 or 14, which isn’t the easiest process in California. I didn’t do a lot of trapping, mostly because it is costly to have to use box traps. But last year I decided to get my trapping license again, thinking that I’d pony up the money for some decent box traps, or buy the materials to make some, but I didn’t buy any, so I never ended up doing any trapping (after spending the $110 on the license) so I’m debating on whether I want to get my trapping license this year or the alternative is using the money I would to get some traps and instead buy myself a nice dedicated predator gun and caller. The budget only allows one. Since you can’t trap bobcats in California anyways I’m leaning more toward the hunting route, instead of trapping. Bobcat is absolutely the most interesting quarry to me, second would be coyotes but I like the idea of coyote hunting because it’s open all year. I buy bobcat tags that just sit in my pocket every year; a few years ago I bought a couple Carver Calls and used them here and there but never to seriously and never once did I call anything in. Partly because I had no clue what I was doing but also I think I just wasn’t in a good area for it. I recently moved closer to an area with a larger population of coyotes so I decided to go out recently for a dedicated coyote search. I wouldnt really call it a hunt, more like scouting but I did bring along my 17 HMR in case of any close encounters with a coyote. I was pretty stoked on the first evening just before sunset I got a yote howling about 300 yards away, I made a little to much movement and it busted me. No big deal though, it was fun to get a response from the calls and given the stand I was at I don’t think I would have gotten him within 100 yards, which was my personal limit considering the gun I was using. The next morning I set up only 200 yards from the evening stand and almost immediately got a response in the form of a howl. I saw 2 coyotes in an opening at 258 yards, they went into some brush, I didn’t think they were scared so I kept calling and not 5 minutes later I looked behind me and had a coyote 147 yards away. Given the wind was gusting pretty bad, I knew the shot would likely be no good. It was fun to actually have something respond to the call. I also am fascinated with Mammalogy, I want to ad some skulls and skins to my collection, no head shots. I do all my own tanning and skull mounts. So when coyotes are prime, pelt damage is a main concern for me, and same goes for bobcats. My father also really enjoys skulls and skins and would make good gifts to him.
Most of my hunting will be here in California, but as I mentioned I am out of state for other hunts so what I’m looking forward to is hunting my grandfathers ranch for coyotes and wolves in Northern Idaho. He truly hates them and he would be pleased to have me take care of some. Also in Central Idaho there is quite an extensive population of wolves where we elk hunt, I buy a tag but I never actually pursued them. I did howl some up last year as a joke to my elk hunting buddy. We both killed our bulls way down a canyon and we had to pack the elk 3/4 mile and 1200 feet in elevation uphill to where we staged the meat to than make the 9 mile pack out to the truck. It took 3 days, but I’m very protective of game meat, and so we packed our first of 3 loads of meat to the staging area uphill, and all we had were sleeping bags and sacks of elk, and I told my buddy that we needed to basically sleep on the meat because I’ll bet there are wolves right down the canyon. He gawked, and I half jokingly said “seriously, watch” and I howled a big long sequence but before I could finish my howl we got cut off by a pack of wolves not to far off. I had one hand on my elk steaks that night. In addition, I buy a Nevada Hunting License every year because I like to put in for deer, elk, sheep points so it would be nice to actually use the license for something, I’m only 2.5 hours from Nevada now so I’m planning to Chukar and Coyote hunt that way this year. Where we hunt in Montana ( Missouri River Breaks) has its fair share of coyotes. I’d really like to be geared up for predator hunting before we leave for that trip in late October.
So the questions I have are regarding bullet accuracy and performance given that I have to use non-lead. I currently own a .270 and a .243 Winchester, along with the 17 HMR. My 243 has a 1:9.25 twist and my .270 has a 1:10 twist. I’m planning to reload some ammo for the .243 to get me by until I can get a different rifle. The reason I want a smaller rifle is pelt damage and I am really leaning toward a .204 Ruger, the guns I’m looking at are the Savage 12 Low Profile (not sure if I want the thumbhole stock or not), Ruger Hawkeye Varmint Target, or Ruger Hawkeye Predator (all with 1:12 twist). Looking around at Midway I see they offer 4 bullets for the .204 Ruger in non-lead. 1) Barnes VG 26 Grain 2) Nosler Ballistic Tip 32 Grain 3) Lehigh Defense 30 Grain and 4) Hornady Varmint 24 Grain (not actually available). I want to lean towards the Barnes because I shoot the TSX in my .270 and it’s been pretty darn good but a varmint bullet is far different than a 140 grain TSX on elk. I want to hear some peoples real world experience with the above bullets as far as accuracy and performance? In addition, given the 1:12 twist of the .204 would the lighter bullets work well? I know that the equivalent weight copper or alloy bullet is longer than lead but the 26 grain Barnes even though non-lead seems light for a 1:12 twist, which I want to talk more about below. Any opinions on the make/model of gun would be appreciated as well. Also, I’m trying to work up a load for my .243 that will do minimum pelt damage in the mean time. There are 9 non-lead options I see on Midway, some are the TSX and TTSX which seem quite expensive for the job and probably will not give me much pelt left (prove me wrong though if you know better than me, because I’m only assuming), I know bullet placement matters. Looking at the lighter varmint bullets, that leaves me with Barnes Varmint Grenade 62 grain, Nosler Ballistic Tip 55 grain, as well as some Lehigh Defense which I’m totally not familiar with. I would be open to any non-lead .243 bullet that is accurate while producing the least pelt damage ( even though I know full well a .243 is not ideal if concerned for pelts). So again real life experience with some non-lead .243 bullets would be awesome. Ordinarily, a 55 or 62 grain bullet would seem awfully light for a 1:9.25 twist like my rifle. I usually shoot 80-90 grain bullets. As already mentioned, these aren’t lead bullets so they are longer. Has anyone come up with an equivalent copper/alloy/non-lead comparison or chart or something that would work best for the barrel caliber and twist? I know Barnes Load Data says they used a 1:10” for the .243 but that’s pretty vague. So I did some math, it seems many would agree that for a .243 with 1:9.25 twist your good to shoot 80-95 traditional jacketed lead bullets. Without getting to fancy, copper is approximately 21 percent lighter than lead. Now, I know lead bullets usually contain a small amount of copper jacket, but for simplicity sake, does it stand to reason that a 50 grain copper bullet would be approximately 21 percent longer than it’s 50 grain lead counterpart? So say a 1:9.25” twist is usually good for 80–95 grain bullets out of my .243, could I extend my math to say that for non-lead ammo 63-75 grains would shoot best. Also it seems you could reason that you wouldn’t be able to shoot non-lead bullets that are on the heavy side 85+ grains because they would be to long and need a tighter twist? IF someone has more precise mathematics than what I laid out, let me know? I bought some Barnes 110 grain TTSX for my .270 and I’m wondering if they will be any good, not for coyote hunting but for reloading fun; if you used the 21 percent larger a 110 grain monolithic copper bullet would be about the same size as a lead 135-140 grain bullet so perhaps my .270 will shoot them just fine, I have yet to reload them but it also got me thinking about the .270 Barnes 85 grain bullets they have, which seem entirely to small for 1:10 twist I have. In all likely hood 21 percent larger is overestimating how much larger equivalent weight copper bullet is vs lead, if I had to spitball it’s probably more like 15 percent. Also I didn’t get into different alloys, not all non-lead is copper. I really hope someone can point me in the right direction regarding .204 bullets that are non-lead and worth a [beeep], I will seriously have to consider nixing the .204 Ruger idea in favor of 22-250 or .223 Rem (more likely 22-250) because they have more options for non-lead but at the risk of pelt damage. I want to make it work though if possible.
Apologies for the lengthy intro and first post. I’ve been doing my research but still there are questions left. For those without the patience to read through the entire post, the gist of it is.
1) Anyone have real life examples on non-lead .204 Ruger bullets that perform and are accurate? Specifically Barnes VG 26 grain or Nosler Ballistic Tip 32 grains, or?
2) Opinions on Savage 12 Low Pro, Ruger Hawkeye Predator, Ruger Hawkeye VT in .204 Ruger?
3) Any experience with non-lead .243 bullets that keep pelt damage down and accurate? Specifically the Barnes Varmint Grenade 62 grains and Nosler Ballistic Tip 55 grains, or?
Thanks from a disgruntled Californian biding his time till he can move to Idaho.