Is there really an answer to the 204 vs 223 debate ?

J

Jesse Jaymes

New member
I've read and re-read most of the post here in the last 1/2 year. I can see some responses from knowledgeable folks who actually shoot more than 1 coyote a year, and some others that have never shot at a coyote and are ballistics experts.

My query is to any, but am asking for a justification as well.

I believe I have a "rare" 700 remington action coming to me in a small bolt face. Rare because its left handed and just the action only. I can go any direction I want to with it. I am really hoping that I am going to be offered a job back in my home state of New Mexico. This means back into the predator hunting and jackrabbit shooting we will go.

I have only saved fur on a few occassions, but am looking fur friendly, as I will target cats and greys, but the yotes will over run me until I can thin them out enough.

I feel none of the listed factory velocities are actually attainable, at least for me they are not. I would cut off 150 fps from anything listed. A comparison of 40 grain bullets would yield a 204 Ruger/40 at 3750 fps or the 223 Ackley with a 40 at 3650.

Can someone talk me into on or the other ??

I am asking myself, how much extra pain in the a$$ is the AI vs how much it has to offer.

If it makes a difference, I will barrel with no longer than a 22" for this calling rifle.
 
As a secondary aside, I am aware that it can really come down to bullet selection to make or break a caliber. I have no experience with the .20 calibers. My experience with the .224 does not always mirror the "experts" here. It seems vogue to say "keep them off the shoulder". I am a competitive marksman. In my 10 years of calling coyotes, more often than not, the scope is getting filled with an ever increasing image of a coyotes head, yellow eyes and a flapping pink tounge. I have had very few chances to line drive one out over 300 yards just sitting there staring at me. Of course I try to avoid the bones, but it does not always happen. I really do think there are better options than going very heavy for caliber and intentionally driving all the way thru though.

I honestly have had very few exits with the 243 BUT only with the 70 TNT by Speer. My 22-250 never blew too many of them up either. But, again, I have the small bolt faced action coming an it will be one of these two.
 
How about a 22-250 40 grain bullet at 4000fps (advertised velocity), $18.95 for 40 rounds at my local Wal-mart? Prety hard to beat in my book

Later

Mike
 
The 17 originally did intrige me, but man, it's an even hotter debate than this one. I've heard of alot of walk-offs with that caliber. Seems it either electrocutes them on the spot, or they are never recovered.

Overall, I'd guess better brass and bullet selection for either the 204, or 224. Let me rephrase, more readily attainable.
 
Already got a few of those. Dissapointed in the velocity. I can get 4000 out of the 22-250 combo, but not nearly 4200 as the books say. I have never shot a coyote with any bullet lighter than 50 grains. Not sure how these would function that fast ? These rifle are the big varmint types. I already ordered the action, so I will be building (having built) a rifle on it. I am really looking for short, and portable.
 
I've shot many coyotes with the 223 and 204. I seem to lean towards the 223. I am getting as good of results with the 223 as the 204. The velocity differences are minimal and I like the 22 cal rifles better. Both will kill coyotes effectively.. I've only had on 17 and could not get it to shoot as well as I woul like.

One more thing to consider. You will need different cleaning rods and powder drop tubes to go with the 204 or 17. Good luck...
 
I am aware of the smaller "headaches" of having a sub caliber. The 223 vs 223 AI is a bit more of a qaundry, as the AI is not pressure tested and the AI conversions are actually supposed to only yield a small increase of 50-75 fps. If I could guarantee myself the barrel would get 3800 from a 40 grainer in the 223 AI, I think I'd do it and be done. The standard chambering, as per Nosler #5 is supposed to yield 3860 fps with the 40 gr. I have been tinkering with my current 223 and both the Vmax and Blitz 40's and am leaning on them real hard and have yet to crack 3600 fps.
 
JJ,

If it is between the 223 and 223AI,I would go with the AI all the way.I don't know who told you that you could only get 50-75 fps more out of the AI it's more like 200 fps.The AI has a 10% more powder capacity than the standard.I don't know about 40 grain loads,but I fireform 50 grain bullets in mine at mild velocities and they are pretty damn accurate.I shoot 55 grain Gamekings at around 3500 fps once they are fireformed to AI. Most you will get with the standard .223 in the same bullet is 3300 fps.Case life should be longer to with an AI because there is almost no taper in the case.Dies are really not that expensive either,I bought the 3 die set for about 90 bucks if I remember right.The standard .223 three die set runs about 56 bucks I think.Thats for reddings,definitely worth the extra cost.I have both and the standard just doesn't get much use any more.I shoot the regular .223 ammo to fireform for PD's,Rock chucks,and rabbits,and I've used the AI loads at the higher velocities for coyotes.Although I use my .204 most of the time for coyotes anymore,I think given a choice between the standard and AI There is no choice "AI". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gifFWIW Good Hunting Chad
 
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I think the real answer to your question is no. That said let me give you my findings on the 204. I actualy got pretty close to listed velocity with factory Hornady loads but could not get close to them by reloading. Especialy with the 39 grain sierra, around 3600 was tops and I stuffed alot of powder in there. I did not kill enough coyotes with it to make a determination on how it killed, all I can say is it didn't "WOW" me. After I worked on the gun then on different loads, it was time for a new project.

One thing to remember is with a quality barrel your velocity should be closer to what's published.

For coyotes I like the 50 grain bullet in .223 at 3285fps out of my 16" AR. For minimal pelt damage and blistering speed I like the 17 remington. But that's what I'm comfortable with, I'm by no means saying ones better than the other.
 
Jesse,

Look at it this way... You can spend extra money on dies, bullets, brass, cleaning rods, powder funnels etc. for a 204 to maybe equal a 223 with a lighter bullet.

But consider that the 223 is chambered as a standard round in umpteen rifles already. You can get an AR, a PSS, LTR, VS, etc. etc. etc. all with the same cartridge.

For practicality there's just not enough justification to go with a smaller bullet/cartridge and give up the versatility of the 223 which with 69gr bullets is a legitimate 800yd rifle.

Besides... The 223 is minimum for 'yotes in a bolt action. A 22-250 is much better and a 243 is perfect.

Don't go smaller... Go bigger if you gotta give up the mighty and mighty practical 223.

$bob$
 
I started calling coyotes in 1970 with an old 45rpm record setup. I have used everything from a 30-30 winchester to a 25-06 (which I still shoot) and a lot of in betweens. In 20 years of law-enforcement (18 in the tactical side as an instructer and team leader) I had an opportunity to shoot most everything offered as often and as much as I wanted. I've read the lit., checked out the gun writers and found one thing. If it ain't broke! Don't fix it! I am not being critical of all these new caliburs because I frankly don't care. After all these years and dozens of calibur changes I shoot mainly a scoped (eyes getting old) M4A3 and a 700Rem in 25-06. Many coyotes and a few bobs and deer have fell down in front of me never to get up. The 223rem. is now being toted by yet my second son in Afganistan and he feels well armed. Surely it will still handle a coyote. Jeff Cooper once said. Show me a man with one rifle and I'll show you a man who hits what he shoots at. A long winded round about answer to. The 223rem. still works!
 
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Besides... The 223 is minimum for 'yotes in a bolt action. A 22-250 is much better and a 243 is perfect.

Don't go smaller... Go bigger if you gotta give up the mighty and mighty practical 223.

$bob$



I'm sure there are a few coyote, fox, and bobcat shooters that will disagree with you.

There seems to be alot of people shooting 17 Mach4, 17 Rem, 204 Ruger, 20 Tact., 221 Fireball, 22 hornet, and triple duece just to name a few, that seem to like any of those offerings in a bolt action.

The 223 is a great cartidge, and does take a large amount of predators.
 
The 20 Tactical would give you move velocity than the 223 if that is important to you and still be bigger than the 17 Rem but the 17 Rem is faster if that too is an issue. All three of the above are very accurate, and that should be the issue.
 
Remember, you can still use standard .223 in a .223 AI if you had to, but it still would be best to fireform with a reduced load. In the Remington action, you must make sure that the projectile makes contact with the rifleing. Otherwise, the case can move forward in the chamber. If you are like me, I like something a little different,,,I had a 30 Gibbs at on time, which would also take factory 30-06. The Gibss allows for 300 Win. velocities and is real close to a 30-06 AI...IMHO, go for the .223 AI if you like to have something different. Redding dies from MIDWAY are $89.00 at this time...JOHN /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Yes. The answer is use what you want. If you want a gun good on a coyotes to about about 330 yards...use a .223...if you want a gun good on coyotes to 430 yards...shoot the .204. If money is a concern shoot the .223. This 'debate' isn't. Both weapons have their upsides and downsides. I have both and use the .204 when I know I'll be shooting in excess of 200 yards from an elevated vantage point. It can be a little hard on fur inside of 100 yards depending on the bullet...so the .223 gets the nod there. The .204 is a blast to shoot, especially outside of 200 yards. It's just flatter shooting. It's a dream as a range target round. That's not to say that the .223 isn't...just that the .204 is. Seeing is believing.
 
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