Key holing 22-250

H

heavymetal

Member
I have a Savage model 12, about 3 years old, probably around 3000 rounds through it. It's always shot great before. Lately when I use 50 grain soft points or vmax either it key holes or get terrible groups even at 25 yards. The weird thing is 36 grain varmint grenades still seem to do pretty well out of it. It's a 1/12 twist heavy, stainless barrel. Do you think I could've wrecked the rifling , but if so, why's it still ok with the 36grn grenades? What else could it be?
 
I would guess that barrel is pretty much toast, with that many rounds through it. I would screw on a criterion prefit and not look back.
 
That is a hard question to answer, I've had mine since '91 and it still shoots great, but I've never kept track of how many rounds have been down it. My buddy has over 5000 down his with no problems. I'm assuming you reload for it, hot rounds and rapid sustained firing will burn it up a lot faster, mostly the rapid and sustained firing though. Over cleaning with harsh cleaners can be a barrels worst enemy too. I would think a burned barrel would shoot all bullets poorly, but stranger things have happened. JMO


Here Kitty Kitty
 
First check for very heavy copper fouling, check for crown damage, if nothing there, maybe have the bore scoped.
 
You are probably copper fouled and or powder fouled very badly.

What is your cleaning regiment?

If your barrel is clean, then like another said, look at the crown with a magnifying glass.

I would bet the farm that the barrel is very, very fouled. Brass may be very work hardened and you now have a death grip on the bullet, perhaps even swagging the bullet down the brass maybe so hard.

As barrels get long in the tooth where you are jumping the bullet a long ways, go to a bullet with more bearing surface:

55g Sierra Semi point
63g Sierra Semi point

60g V max or 60g Sierra hP may work.

I would suggest that you get some good brushes and brush with JB or Montana Extreme Copper Cream.

When it comes to barrel life, accuracy expectations comes to mind. Some guys are happy with 1" groups while others are very happy at 1 1/2" groups, and some OCD types want sub 1/2" groups or throw the barrel away.

I wiped a Shilen barrel in 22/250 out in one day on a hot p. dog town in S.D. 800 rounds.

Good luck
 
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3,000 rounds in a 22-250. Barrel is probably toast. I have seen barrels with 6 inches of the rifling gone and still shoot some bullets but not all. New barrel or different bullet. Advertise on this web site for a new barrel/takeoff.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymanYou are probably copper fouled and or powder fouled very badly.

What is your cleaning regiment?

If your barrel is clean, then like another said, look at the crown with a magnifying glass.

I would bet the farm that the barrel is very, very fouled. Brass may be very work hardened and you now have a death grip on the bullet, perhaps even swagging the bullet down the brass maybe so hard.

As barrels get long in the tooth where you are jumping the bullet a long ways, go to a bullet with more bearing surface:

55g Sierra Semi point
63g Sierra Semi point

60g V max or 60g Sierra hP may work.

I would suggest that you get some good brushes and brush with JB or Montana Extreme Copper Cream.

When it comes to barrel life, accuracy expectations comes to mind. Some guys are happy with 1" groups while others are very happy at 1 1/2" groups, and some OCD types want sub 1/2" groups or throw the barrel away.

I wiped a Shilen barrel in 22/250 out in one day on a hot p. dog town in S.D. 800 rounds.

Good luck

The man has spoken. A lot of knowledge here.
 
I'd agree with Keith,

You likely have a very long jump after 3000 rounds

You very well may have copious amounts of copper, fouling, etc embedded in the barrel.

It's a savage with a nut...I'd be ordering a new tube either way after 3000 rounds on a 22-250. I'd say they done you right on that barrel.
 
I don't buy the burned out throat idea. Why would the 36-grain shoot well if the 50s don't? The 36 grain have to jump further than the 50s do...

And I don't see how it is copper fouling, either, but it might be. The fact that the 50s are longer means they need a faster twist, and maybe copper has the barrel SO fouled the projectile isn't getting a good grip.

But I don't think the throat is the problem. That is easily checked: load them long, or see how far out you have to load them to find the leade, then single shoot them and see if that solves the problem.

I once had a full custom '06 with a 22" barrel that was shot out, but by that I mean that the first 10" of rifling were gone. I bought it in a secondary market. Even then it would shoot 4" groups at 100!
 
Originally Posted By: DoublessI don't buy the burned out throat idea. Why would the 36-grain shoot well if the 50s don't? The 36 grain have to jump further than the 50s do...

Bearing surface is why. Those 36 gr bullets are almost like a wad cutter with a little point...they're al,lost all bearing surface.

And I don't see how it is copper fouling, either, but it might be. The fact that the 50s are longer means they need a faster twist, and maybe copper has the barrel SO fouled the projectile isn't getting a good grip.

A heavily fouled barrel makes for a slippery surface, thereby not allowing proper lands engagement. It is common in the small bore/fast bullet cartridges. I'm willing to bet, if something like wipe-out is used, the goop coming out of the muzzle will be very thick and very, very blue.

But I don't think the throat is the problem. That is easily checked: load them long, or see how far out you have to load them to find the leade, then single shoot them and see if that solves the problem.

I once had a full custom '06 with a 22" barrel that was shot out, but by that I mean that the first 10" of rifling were gone. I bought it in a secondary market. Even then it would shoot 4" groups at 100!

A 30-06 compared to a 22-250 is in every way an apples to oranges comparison. Additionally, your sampling of one is not enough to make a synopsis. Also, the issues and contributing factors to situations similar to the OP are very well documented and well received.
 
Originally Posted By: pahntr760Originally Posted By: DoublessI don't buy the burned out throat idea. Why would the 36-grain shoot well if the 50s don't? The 36 grain have to jump further than the 50s do...

Bearing surface is why. Those 36 gr bullets are almost like a wad cutter with a little point...they're al,lost all bearing surface.

And I don't see how it is copper fouling, either, but it might be. The fact that the 50s are longer means they need a faster twist, and maybe copper has the barrel SO fouled the projectile isn't getting a good grip.

A heavily fouled barrel makes for a slippery surface, thereby not allowing proper lands engagement. It is common in the small bore/fast bullet cartridges. I'm willing to bet, if something like wipe-out is used, the goop coming out of the muzzle will be very thick and very, very blue.

But I don't think the throat is the problem. That is easily checked: load them long, or see how far out you have to load them to find the leade, then single shoot them and see if that solves the problem.

I once had a full custom '06 with a 22" barrel that was shot out, but by that I mean that the first 10" of rifling were gone. I bought it in a secondary market. Even then it would shoot 4" groups at 100!

A 30-06 compared to a 22-250 is in every way an apples to oranges comparison. Additionally, your sampling of one is not enough to make a synopsis. Also, the issues and contributing factors to situations similar to the OP are very well documented and well received.

Well, having just measured 35s, 40s, and 50s for bearing length, I will tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. Bearing length increases with projectile length, as I suspected before I made the measurements. The 50s have more bearing length than the 35s. Period.

And secondly, I want you to tell me how a burned out '06 is not the same as a burned out 22-250. I happen to have BOTH; I simply took the '06 as an example. I would like for you, in your omniscience, to tell me how many burned out barrels I have owned.

Your opinions are your own. I do not have to agree with them, nor will I. You may have a lot of folks on here buffaloed, but I am not one of them.

I will bow out now and continue to watch you try to explain something that is not factual.
 
Yes, bearing surfaces increase with weight...that's a given. However there is no universal amount of that increase. Also, many bullets of similar but differing design will have much different bearing surface, BTO, and OAL. However the VG has a very large bearing surface in relation to its OAL.

Berger Chart


The largest factor of burning a barrel out is heat and pressure. A 22-250 stoked up to launch small bullets at high speeds places a good deal of heat and pressure in a smaller diameter hole (read less surface on which to displace said factors). Overbore cartridges but out faster than standard because of this. Hence why the 30-06 should not be considered the same as burning a 22-250. Burning out a 30-06 is an impressive feat, as it must have taken a great deal of shooting to do that.

Barrel Life article

I was not claiming to know how many barrels you have burned out...not at all by my comments. My point was your one example is simply that, one example. It is the only sample offered, therefor it is a sample of one. I meant nothing malicious in my response, simply addressed how the issues could have been present to to the OP's situation. I was/am simply offering my experience and research as I have seen it. It was never an attempt to discredit your information, but an attempt to clarify some points already made.

As you stated, this is my opinion. It is not an attempt to discredit anyone, but offer another point of view to hopefully help the OP solve the situation. No malicious intent here.
 
I've shot out a couple factory .22-250 barrels. And several custom .22-250AI's.

On the slow twists, 12's and 14's, key holing was one of the first indicators they were about toast. Quickly followed by poofs. Accuracy never really did get all that bad, if you could get 5 bullets to reach the target whole and point on.

The slow twists all went bye bye at about 2500 rounds. The 8 twists didn't last even half that long...

Never bothered with more round nosed bullets, the weight and BC was at odds with what I wanted those rifles to do. But I've known guys who extended the useful life of a barrel that way and it's been common knowledge since Christ was a corporal.

- DAA
 
I started seeing accuracy fall of in the Remington 700V and Ruger 77 Varmints somewhere in the 1500-2000 round area(where regular bullets could no longer be seated to touch the lands), that is when I went to the Semi points, this would add another 800 rounds of barrel life. Now, this guy is at the 3000 round mark, and I would bet the farm that the barrel is beyond toast.

When the throat gets fire cracked real bad, it shreds the jacket. Bullets have different jacket design which is why a guy might see a particular bullet key hole faster than another bullet....HELLO!

Standard Nosler ballistic tips will be the least resistant to a rough throat and bullets of longer bearing surface(maybe 63g sierra semi point).

Throwing money at a barrel with a rough throat is usually a waste of money, but guys only have so much disposable income.... have to try and make their rifle work best they can.

There is a guy over in New Zealand that is a huge fan of the 7mm Practical(300 Winchester necked down to 7mm). Of course this big magnum is rough on barrels. He has done extensive research in smoothing out rough, fire cracked throats with extending barrel life using JB. He claims that the barrel's useful life is extended with a lot of fire cracking present as long as the fire cracking is smooth.

This New Zealand guy shoots a lot of Goats at long range and really hammers barrels hard. Lapping fire cracking is a new concept to me, but this post brings up a new way of thinking. If the guy can keep the bullets in the kill zone on a goat at 1200 yards, this maybe something worth looking into. Nate Foster maybe this guy's name...memory kinda fuzzy on the name...

We are usually slapping on a new barrel when fire cracking gets extensive. I was looking at a barrel a couple of weeks ago, and it had extensive fire cracking for 10" down the barrel, R#17 is the bad boy that cracked up that barrel in a 6 XC, 105 a MAX-107G Sierra's at 3270fps, amazing accuracy in a 31" X caliber barrel.
 
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Thank you for all of the replies. I'm not a fanatic cleaner of this rifle, but when I do, I do it thoroughly with Sweets 7.62 and other stuff until my patches come out white. With my untrained eye I can't see any throat erosion. Maybe I'm not seeing it closely enough. The 3000 rounds was a loose guess, but it's probably close. I'm probably going to go the new barrel route. Can you guys give me a ballpark amount for a new barrel and suggestions for a brand?
 
The only rifle I ever shot out a barrel on was a Remington 700 in .25-06. When I knew the barrel was shot it started shooting groups of 3 like it always did, but the 4th or 5th shot would be a flyer, usually off by 1.5" on the target. I never kept records back then but I figured it was around 1200 rounds.

I was glad it was toast. I ordered a Krieger and that rifle shoots some amazing groups now.
 
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