Lead for Home Defense/CCW/CHL

im4flight

im4flight

New member
Does anyone use lead bullets for Home Defense/CCW/CHL. I would also like to know why and or why not. What kind of expansion/penatration could I expect?

My thought process is they would be practical because they wouldnt penetrate walls/background like other jacketed bullets? But still have a decent knockdown power?

If it matter, I usually carry a 40sw/45ACP.

I am still trying to figure out the limitations of lead bullets.

Thanks,
 
Years ago, I used to use lead wadcutters, turned around backwards in the little 5 shot revolver that I kept in the house for the wife to have when I had to be gone...That was mainly because we lived in an apt building and they were less likely to penetrate adjoining walls...

Rather than depending on high expansion lead bullets for a semi-auto, you would be better off to spend the extra money and get some Mag-Safe rounds that have light weight bullets and function at really high velocities...They tend to disperse most of their energy on impact and feed reliably from most magazines in semis...

I keep some 10mm rounds for just that purpose that I've made up using 135gr HP bullets, with hot powder loads....The penetration factor is not great, but they explode on impact with fairly soft surfaces...

You can do something similar with the .40s and .45s, as long as they don't hang up on your feed ramps...It just takes some experimentation...
 
Turtle, thanks.

As far as feeding, I have used lead for years for target practice in both guns that I carry without any feeding issues. I just always thought that was the limitation of lead.

I have learned on here recently, that some people hunt with it, so was wondering what else peopld use it for.

I always have lead around, loaded up and ready to go.
 
Ex-Le and a little bit passionate about using the right tool for the job.


I won't recommend anything that I expect to not penetrate for a sd round. Odds are very low that any one person will have to actually use a round in their home, odds are if that does happen, that it's a normal person on the other end and that a 'messy' and loud wound will get the job done, however if those odds don't add up a loud and messy wound isn't going to do a [beeep] thing other than make the bad guy a little easier to ID after he's done murdering you and your family. I have picked up too many bodies of all ages (plenty of natural deaths as well) to say go with what 'might' work.

Since your basically planning for a very low odds situation you're doing yourself and more importantly your loved ones a grave disservice if you don't plan appropriately. That is with a round that has a high likelihood of physically, not mentally, incapacitating someone. And that requires penetration and the ability to destroy bone, and reach beyond terminal areas. It also REQUIRES knowing where you can and can't pull the trigger.

If the badguy is standing in front of your kids bed, you need to improvise until a clear shot presents itself. That may be nothing more than the time it takes to drop to a knee to give a safe angle, it may require playing bait to position yourself and the badguy safely.

Gimmick rounds are nothing more than gimmicks and more often than not fail any given test, fail on a given subject, and are too expensive to even test reliability in a given firearm. None of the testing I'm familiar with shows any ideas regarding bullets (loaded backwards, x's carved on them etc) does anything beyond what the bullet itself would do loaded and prepped normally.

Use a premium hollowpoint with a proven track record, avoid gimmick bullets, avoid birdshot in a shotgun, and know your homes shooting lanes. Practice practice practice with your SD firearm until you can make it work, work in the dark, work in your left hand, work with your eyes closed, work with your eyes closed and left handed, work with your given ammo, just plain work.
 
I would absolutely disregard OldTurtles post completely and go with MdIndy. Here is why.....

I am a reloader and know I can make absolutely reliable high quality rounds myself. I would not suggest using them for self defense for legal reasons. I agree tried by 12 vs. carried by 6 but I believe it is for better to use FACTORY AMMO for self defense needs.

Anyone who suggests Glaser rounds or birdshot for self defense is a fool. It might work very well and I have seen it work very well. It is still a very poor choice for defending your life and the lives of your family!

Penetration is what I want. A deep wound even through and through is better than a shallow wound. Heavy clothing can stop some of the lighter bullets and birdshot. (Glasers are just basically small lead shot encased in plastic that breaks on impact and you then have VERY light weight projectiles that do not penetrate worth a darn.

Handguns in general are poor choices for self defense but handguns are what are used most often. If it is to be a handgun then I want a larger diameter, heavy bullet that will penetrate and make a big hole.

To answer your question lead can and often does work just fine for self defense but in my opinion stick with factory rounds. But a good quality lead core jacketed hollow point is tough to beat for all around expansion and penetration.
 
Sumrifle...I agree with you totally on using factory rounds for self defense...If you go back to the original post though, Im4flight seemed overly concerned about penetration in walls, etc and is a reloader... That's why I was suggesting the commercially made Mag-Tecs over lead reloads...

I don't know what your incident rate is of 'Home Invasion', but around here, it's not uncommon and I know it happens frequently in Texas (That's one of the first places I ever heard of it back in the early '70s)...

I've been a police firearms instructor and have researched the legal ramifications for legal liability and that's why the dept I retired from started using street loads for training and qualifications, rather than the less expensive commercial reloads such as 3-D, etc...

On the other hand, if you knowingly have children or immediate non-family members in the close proximity of where a firearm will possibly be used inside a dwelling, large calibers that offer maximum penetration can be just as financially ruinous in court, if a better alternative was available and you consciously made the decision not to use it...

In every case, if you change one factor in the event, you can change the outcome of the liability...As a street officer, I want, as you do, something that will penetrate and stop an action as fast as possible...But as a homeowner, father, grandfather and neighbor, I have to consider the potential for harm to innocents that may not be involved in the immediate area...
 
Thanks for the info guys,

My question was really just because I am trying to figure out what lead can and cant do, more to just to know than anything else.

I am interested by the comments on liabillity, it is a sad world we live in sometimes... does anyone carry reloads for home defense, or on the street for CCW/CHL? And why does a reload increase your liabillity. I understand if you use your gun, you are taking a chance, but what does a reload open you up to?
 
If you happen to shoot someone with a self made load, regardless of the composition, an attorney can easily turn that against you in front of a jury, indicating that while a 'Factory' load was lethal, what you made was intentionally more lethal...

I have factory Speer .357 magnum loads with which I've shattered concrete blocks in shooting demonstrations and while I can produce reloads that are considerably less destructive, I won't run the risk of the spin that can be placed on the rounds...I try to duplicate the lower velocity rounds for practice or competition, but keep factory rounds in most of my firearms that might be used for self defense..

I have around 18k of factory rounds in reserve, so my choices are many...
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Got it, thank makes sense, thanks.

18K of factory rounds? Thats a retirement plan in storage :0).

I dont even have that in reloads right now, I need to get caught up.
 
Originally Posted By: OldTurtleIf you happen to shoot someone with a self made load, regardless of the composition, an attorney can easily turn that against you in front of a jury, indicating that while a 'Factory' load was lethal, what you made was intentionally more lethal...


I guess it all depends where one lives. PA recently enacted into law the "Expanded Castle Doctrine" which clears a justified shooter acting in self defense from any potential civil lawsuits. Thank You Governor Corbett!!

With that said, I have no crumb-snatcher kids in my house - my home defense weapon of choice = 12ga with 00buckshot.
Far superior to a handgun if faced with a real life situation in the middle of the night.
 
I don't worry too much about civil issues. I figure if someone is going to sue me, they're going to sue me no matter what I do. Most of my pistols are loaded with LE ammo that I... acquired over the years
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If a shooting happens they can try to sue me for using super duper deadly cop ammo. If I use something else they can sue me for using super duper hunting ammo designed to take down a buffalo. If I use a low odds round, I shot them to inflict physical pain. No matter what you do, it can always be turned around on you. Although besides a couple movies I can't recall of a single time it's ever actually happened although the 'net is full of rumors.

I do think one of the best ways to win in a civil trial is to be alive when the trial happens and be defending myself against the bad guys family
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Wyoming also has the castle doctrine, if you break in my house, I own you. If you do break in MY house, I strongly suggest you turn and run away
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You will be given the chance, and only 1 chance, to do so, immediately and with no time to weigh your options. I guarantee I will not be in the mood to discuss things.

You shouldn't ever have to worry about defending yourself or your family imo and you definitely shouldn't have to worry about a lawsuit if someone has forced you to that point. But the key is to be capable of worrying about something as minor as a civil suit rather than worry about all the ways you could be worrying about the upcoming funeral/rape trial etc.
 
"Lead" in itself is also a very vague description. Some hard cast lead bullets would probably penetrate more than just about any other pistol bullets. When you get to looking into lead bullets you really need to get into the details of how the bullet is made, what alloy used etc. The characteristics can go from one end of the spectrum to the other.
 
I reload my own Ammo for PD
For my Colt 1911 I load 200 SWC., same thing I load for target practice. I do not worry about the rumors of being sued for loading your own Personal Defense ammo, there has never been a single case ever pointed out to me where someone was sued and lost for using handloads. My handloads function 100% and that is what I practice with.
This is my preference, what you choose to carry is up to you.

 
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For the states without defense protection laws, the civil liability issue on handloads can be a concern. But not much of one. As stated above if they want to sue they will. But legal history shows that juries are pretty unsympathetic in these cases in virtually every state. As for the legal liabilty - there has been a lot of anecdotal hype on this topic, but no REAL evedence. I have a lawyer who specializes in firearm law. He said that there are no actual cases of someone being prosecuted in a defense case just for using handloaded ammo. There have been prosecutions where handloads were involved, but they were incidental to other circumstances - (Drunkeness - bad histories - threats -etc.) As for just the ammo being a cause -not a problem. He shoots a 357 S&W M19 with a handloaded 125gr LBT style cast bullet in a handload. So he puts his money where his mouth is
 
I agree, our group has researched this handloads for SD as a possible cause for litigation. We have not found one instance where hand loads were in question. This all started when a rag writer for American Handgunner one Massaad Ayoob scared the stuff out of the readers in stating you would be liable and in deep dodo when you protected your self with reloads. The debat goes on from then. I think Mr. Ayoob writes some very good and accurate to a point articles, but he blew this one.
Jim
 
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