leupold or vortex
- Thread starter Tory Rippel
- Start date
I'm not bad mouthing Leupold either, but they've done almost nothing new while other companies have matched or beaten their warranty and come up with a sack full of
new reticles and features.
Are all Leupold products made in the USA now?
There are other scope companies that put Americans to work too.
new reticles and features.
Are all Leupold products made in the USA now?
There are other scope companies that put Americans to work too.
2muchgun
New member
Originally Posted By: fw707Originally Posted By: Hail CaesarLeupolds are not the best anymore.
Leupolds scopes are not the best in their price point range, with any model.
Mostly with Leupold you are paying for a name.
Leupold has sat around on their butt crack and let other folks pass them up.
I totally agree, that for a good period time, this was absolutely true. But it isn't anymore. Leupold has picked it up considerably in recent years, IMO. Due to stiff competition? You betcha........
Leupolds scopes are not the best in their price point range, with any model.
Mostly with Leupold you are paying for a name.
Leupold has sat around on their butt crack and let other folks pass them up.
I totally agree, that for a good period time, this was absolutely true. But it isn't anymore. Leupold has picked it up considerably in recent years, IMO. Due to stiff competition? You betcha........
I own several of both and for me they serve different purposes. I also own some high end stuff. For me all around leupold makes the best hunting scope. They're light, You can mount them lower then anything else, and they are fast. For my big game hunting they are on every rifle, mostly 6x's and 2.5x8's. My vortex's are on my plinkers and varmit rifles as are some of the others. Vortex glass is way better then the price. IMO leupolds are just great for my big game guns.
And Thanks for letting me on the forum.
And Thanks for letting me on the forum.
Hail Caesar
New member
They own a large share of the competition market... because they give scopes away and sponsor shooters.
They own a large share of the Military market because at one time they were the best...but that was 20 years ago and the Military is slow to change. USO and Nightforce are taking contracts by the minute.
They own LEO contracts for the same reason as the Military...but that is changing too. But Leopold gives huge discounts to the LE market and will continue to be a force there. But some are buying better scopes even if they pay more.
And as far as Leopold's "Made in the good 'ol USA"...they dropped that slogan. Seems they are mostly assembled in the USA for the higher end models and the cheaper ones are just "Made in the good ol China".
Al
They own a large share of the Military market because at one time they were the best...but that was 20 years ago and the Military is slow to change. USO and Nightforce are taking contracts by the minute.
They own LEO contracts for the same reason as the Military...but that is changing too. But Leopold gives huge discounts to the LE market and will continue to be a force there. But some are buying better scopes even if they pay more.
And as far as Leopold's "Made in the good 'ol USA"...they dropped that slogan. Seems they are mostly assembled in the USA for the higher end models and the cheaper ones are just "Made in the good ol China".
Al
2muchgun
New member
Originally Posted By: Hail CaesarThey own a large share of the competition market... because they give scopes away and sponsor shooters.
They own a large share of the Military market because at one time they were the best...but that was 20 years ago and the Military is slow to change. USO and Nightforce are taking contracts by the minute.
They own LEO contracts for the same reason as the Military...but that is changing too. But Leopold gives huge discounts to the LE market and will continue to be a force there. But some are buying better scopes even if they pay more.
And as far as Leopold's "Made in the good 'ol USA"...they dropped that slogan. Seems they are mostly assembled in the USA for the higher end models and the cheaper ones are just "Made in the good ol China".
Al
This statement is wrong is so many ways I don't even care to type that much.
Name some Leupold scopes that are made in China......
They own a large share of the Military market because at one time they were the best...but that was 20 years ago and the Military is slow to change. USO and Nightforce are taking contracts by the minute.
They own LEO contracts for the same reason as the Military...but that is changing too. But Leopold gives huge discounts to the LE market and will continue to be a force there. But some are buying better scopes even if they pay more.
And as far as Leopold's "Made in the good 'ol USA"...they dropped that slogan. Seems they are mostly assembled in the USA for the higher end models and the cheaper ones are just "Made in the good ol China".
Al
This statement is wrong is so many ways I don't even care to type that much.
Name some Leupold scopes that are made in China......
huskerhunter
Member
Originally Posted By: ARCOREYOriginally Posted By: ShynlocoOriginally Posted By: fw707Originally Posted By: Hail CaesarLeupolds are not the best anymore.
Leupolds scopes are not the best in their price point range, with any model.
Mostly with Leupold you are paying for a name.
Leupold has sat around on their butt crack and let other folks pass them up.
Then why do so many of the top competitors in so many disciplines (and calibers) of shooting have Leupolds atop their championship rifles? No doubt you pay for the name, but you also get quality and reliability. And that is not to bad mouth Vortex because they are a very fine scope. And yes you can buy better, but you also pay more.
Because that is what their Grandpa used, and their dad used, and their shooting buddies used. Eventually people open their eyes and try different things. This creates competition and better product development. Guns are the same way. Big green was the time tested standard. Not anymore. Die hard Remmy fans are fondling Savages and Tikkas and T/C's and realizing there is more than a single choice for their hard earned money. You'll probably find Leupold makes a very nice fixed power BR scope that many others don't offer. For the variable scopes in competition, I'd bet you'll see just as many if not more Nightforce BR scopes than Leupold since the MK4's seemed to be priced close to a NXS and equal or more to the Nightforce BR line. There's probably a reason Nighforces keep setting the 1K records.
I went with the PST 6x-24x second focal scope in MOA for several reasons on my varmint rifle. I liked the reticle and the matching turrets. I wanted exposed turrets. I like the idea of a zero stop and illuminated reticle. I wanted a 30mm tube with lots of room for adjustment. It had to have a great warranty. It had to be under $800. I don't think you could go wrong with either warranty as stated. The Vortex warranty is transferrable without a registration card or proof of ownership. My understanding is that the Vortex warranty service is very fast if needed. The closest reticle I could find that Leupold made to suit me was the TMR. I really wanted something in MOA and to have the matching knobs in MOA. The Varmint Hunter reticle seems like a glorified BDC to me. I wanted hash marks that actually equate to known values mathematically. Leupold also didn't offer anything close to what I wanted for less $1000. Nightforce was my next closest option in features, but at $1800, I couldn't stomach it. I'm not going to war, if my optic gets runover by a truck, my life won't end due to it's failure. I'm not shooting for money, I just want a reliable scope for hunting that will track true. So far I have gotten my wants for about $650. I have more tracking testing to do and more shooting to get in once weather improves, but I'm perfectly happy using my PST so far. I have shot VX-III's and an NSX. Although I haven't owned either, my time behind them and the price tag on them will probably prevent that from happening given the Vortex continues to work well. I think too much emphasis gets placed on glass clarity than functionality. I'm not taking pictures with my scope. I am dialing turrets and trying to kill things with it. I don't need HD glass and true color transmission as long as it's reasonably clear and tracks true. I also don't sit behind the scope for hours on end. I scan with binos, find my target in the scope and shoot it. If I have to wait more than 5 minutes for the shot, I usually roll away from the rifle and spot with my binos. In my opinion, the gold ring around the scope isn't worth that much more of my money.
Man you hit the nail on the head. Better yet, I swear you're in MY head because I would have written the same thing. LOVE my PST...am in the process of putting them on all my varmint rifles--selling Nikons, Leupy's, Elite's, etc...I have a MK IV with Holland ART reticle on a 50BMG and Long Range 30mm with an ART reticle on a 6BR that SOLD me on MOA hash marks. Those two and a classic gloss 6.5x20 Silhouette will be the only high power Leupy's I'll keep in the long run.
Leupolds scopes are not the best in their price point range, with any model.
Mostly with Leupold you are paying for a name.
Leupold has sat around on their butt crack and let other folks pass them up.
Then why do so many of the top competitors in so many disciplines (and calibers) of shooting have Leupolds atop their championship rifles? No doubt you pay for the name, but you also get quality and reliability. And that is not to bad mouth Vortex because they are a very fine scope. And yes you can buy better, but you also pay more.
Because that is what their Grandpa used, and their dad used, and their shooting buddies used. Eventually people open their eyes and try different things. This creates competition and better product development. Guns are the same way. Big green was the time tested standard. Not anymore. Die hard Remmy fans are fondling Savages and Tikkas and T/C's and realizing there is more than a single choice for their hard earned money. You'll probably find Leupold makes a very nice fixed power BR scope that many others don't offer. For the variable scopes in competition, I'd bet you'll see just as many if not more Nightforce BR scopes than Leupold since the MK4's seemed to be priced close to a NXS and equal or more to the Nightforce BR line. There's probably a reason Nighforces keep setting the 1K records.
I went with the PST 6x-24x second focal scope in MOA for several reasons on my varmint rifle. I liked the reticle and the matching turrets. I wanted exposed turrets. I like the idea of a zero stop and illuminated reticle. I wanted a 30mm tube with lots of room for adjustment. It had to have a great warranty. It had to be under $800. I don't think you could go wrong with either warranty as stated. The Vortex warranty is transferrable without a registration card or proof of ownership. My understanding is that the Vortex warranty service is very fast if needed. The closest reticle I could find that Leupold made to suit me was the TMR. I really wanted something in MOA and to have the matching knobs in MOA. The Varmint Hunter reticle seems like a glorified BDC to me. I wanted hash marks that actually equate to known values mathematically. Leupold also didn't offer anything close to what I wanted for less $1000. Nightforce was my next closest option in features, but at $1800, I couldn't stomach it. I'm not going to war, if my optic gets runover by a truck, my life won't end due to it's failure. I'm not shooting for money, I just want a reliable scope for hunting that will track true. So far I have gotten my wants for about $650. I have more tracking testing to do and more shooting to get in once weather improves, but I'm perfectly happy using my PST so far. I have shot VX-III's and an NSX. Although I haven't owned either, my time behind them and the price tag on them will probably prevent that from happening given the Vortex continues to work well. I think too much emphasis gets placed on glass clarity than functionality. I'm not taking pictures with my scope. I am dialing turrets and trying to kill things with it. I don't need HD glass and true color transmission as long as it's reasonably clear and tracks true. I also don't sit behind the scope for hours on end. I scan with binos, find my target in the scope and shoot it. If I have to wait more than 5 minutes for the shot, I usually roll away from the rifle and spot with my binos. In my opinion, the gold ring around the scope isn't worth that much more of my money.
Man you hit the nail on the head. Better yet, I swear you're in MY head because I would have written the same thing. LOVE my PST...am in the process of putting them on all my varmint rifles--selling Nikons, Leupy's, Elite's, etc...I have a MK IV with Holland ART reticle on a 50BMG and Long Range 30mm with an ART reticle on a 6BR that SOLD me on MOA hash marks. Those two and a classic gloss 6.5x20 Silhouette will be the only high power Leupy's I'll keep in the long run.
Hail Caesar
New member
Originally Posted By: 2muchgunOriginally Posted By: Hail CaesarThey own a large share of the competition market... because they give scopes away and sponsor shooters.
They own a large share of the Military market because at one time they were the best...but that was 20 years ago and the Military is slow to change. USO and Nightforce are taking contracts by the minute.
They own LEO contracts for the same reason as the Military...but that is changing too. But Leopold gives huge discounts to the LE market and will continue to be a force there. But some are buying better scopes even if they pay more.
And as far as Leopold's "Made in the good 'ol USA"...they dropped that slogan. Seems they are mostly assembled in the USA for the higher end models and the cheaper ones are just "Made in the good ol China".
Al
This statement is wrong is so many ways I don't even care to type that much.
Name some Leupold scopes that are made in China......
Is it??? Which parts??
Oh, Almost all Leupold Binos are made in China, while a small few are made in Japan, US and Philippines. Most Leupold spotting scopes are made in Korea, and one or two models are made in the US. All Leupold Torches are made in China and nearly every Leupold rangefinder is made in China. I believe the Rifleman and VX1 are made in China I will have to nail that down.
Al
They own a large share of the Military market because at one time they were the best...but that was 20 years ago and the Military is slow to change. USO and Nightforce are taking contracts by the minute.
They own LEO contracts for the same reason as the Military...but that is changing too. But Leopold gives huge discounts to the LE market and will continue to be a force there. But some are buying better scopes even if they pay more.
And as far as Leopold's "Made in the good 'ol USA"...they dropped that slogan. Seems they are mostly assembled in the USA for the higher end models and the cheaper ones are just "Made in the good ol China".
Al
This statement is wrong is so many ways I don't even care to type that much.
Name some Leupold scopes that are made in China......
Is it??? Which parts??
Oh, Almost all Leupold Binos are made in China, while a small few are made in Japan, US and Philippines. Most Leupold spotting scopes are made in Korea, and one or two models are made in the US. All Leupold Torches are made in China and nearly every Leupold rangefinder is made in China. I believe the Rifleman and VX1 are made in China I will have to nail that down.
Al
2muchgun
New member
Silly me, I thought we were talking about rifle scopes
What part of your statement is right, is the question
So all of the competitive shooters were GIVEN their optics or are sponsored by Leupold?? Wish I would have known that, myself and all the guys I shoot with/against BOUGHT ours. Amazing that Leupy can dominate the competitive circuit the way they do when all the scopes are given away free.
Little hint: The military and LEOs actually TEST products before contracts are awarded. Only certain companies are selected after the testing. Another hint: these companies are allowed to BID on these contracts. In other words, if another company does make the cut, they can offer any kind of discounts/perks that they want, same as Leupold can.
Do a little more research on the Rifleman and VX1 and tell me what your "beliefs" are then.....
What part of your statement is right, is the question
So all of the competitive shooters were GIVEN their optics or are sponsored by Leupold?? Wish I would have known that, myself and all the guys I shoot with/against BOUGHT ours. Amazing that Leupy can dominate the competitive circuit the way they do when all the scopes are given away free.
Little hint: The military and LEOs actually TEST products before contracts are awarded. Only certain companies are selected after the testing. Another hint: these companies are allowed to BID on these contracts. In other words, if another company does make the cut, they can offer any kind of discounts/perks that they want, same as Leupold can.
Do a little more research on the Rifleman and VX1 and tell me what your "beliefs" are then.....
2muchgun
New member
Originally Posted By: Tory RippelVx-3 or viper pst sorry for short post and not enough info but on the run sorry thanks I'm sure you guys will help
This is really not an apples to apples comparison. Two totally different scope lines designed for 2 totally different shooting disciplines.
A better comparison would be the VX2 versus the standard Viper.
Or the PST vs. the Mark 4.........
This is really not an apples to apples comparison. Two totally different scope lines designed for 2 totally different shooting disciplines.
A better comparison would be the VX2 versus the standard Viper.
Or the PST vs. the Mark 4.........
Hail Caesar
New member
Originally Posted By: 2muchgunSilly me, I thought we were talking about rifle scopes
What part of your statement is right, is the question
So all of the competitive shooters were GIVEN their optics or are sponsored by Leupold?? Wish I would have known that, myself and all the guys I shoot with/against BOUGHT ours. Amazing that Leupy can dominate the competitive circuit the way they do when all the scopes are given away free.
Little hint: The military and LEOs actually TEST products before contracts are awarded. Only certain companies are selected after the testing. Another hint: these companies are allowed to BID on these contracts. In other words, if another company does make the cut, they can offer any kind of discounts/perks that they want, same as Leupold can.
Do a little more research on the Rifleman and VX1 and tell me what your "beliefs" are then.....
Two distributors said they are made in Chinlee.
Don't tell me about the Military and procurement...cause I did that.
The best does not always will, heck it almost never wins. What wins is what works decent at what price point, what have we always used because we don't want to go through change, what do we have to buy because it is sold by a minority or women owned company, what do we have to buy because the Congresscritter that represents the area the company is in is pushing for the bid.
I have also been on the LE side of procurement...the same applies as the above. The exception is what the company can offer the Chief, Sheriff, Board, Commissioners, Mayor....in free gifts that will swing the bid their way.
In dang near every test and evaluation done on scopes by knowledgeable people Leupold does not fair well at all anymore in the price point that they compete. Actually they do horrible.
Nightforce for one example is talking a lot of contracts from my local LE from Leupold. Most all are thrilled as the Nightforce's hold up MUCH better, ie..they don't break.
The old joke was the Leupold needed their lifetime warranty because the user needed it also....cause they broke so much.
Leupold is much like Kimber (if you are in the 1911 world). Like Kimber, Leupold buys two color full page ads in EVERY gun mag published. They sponsor every TV show, and sponcer A LOT of good shooters. So if you tell the public you are the best for long enough....people believe you.
Leupold was dominate 20 plus years ago, you couldn't get much better. Now they are just mediocre in their price range.
What part of your statement is right, is the question
So all of the competitive shooters were GIVEN their optics or are sponsored by Leupold?? Wish I would have known that, myself and all the guys I shoot with/against BOUGHT ours. Amazing that Leupy can dominate the competitive circuit the way they do when all the scopes are given away free.
Little hint: The military and LEOs actually TEST products before contracts are awarded. Only certain companies are selected after the testing. Another hint: these companies are allowed to BID on these contracts. In other words, if another company does make the cut, they can offer any kind of discounts/perks that they want, same as Leupold can.
Do a little more research on the Rifleman and VX1 and tell me what your "beliefs" are then.....
Two distributors said they are made in Chinlee.
Don't tell me about the Military and procurement...cause I did that.
The best does not always will, heck it almost never wins. What wins is what works decent at what price point, what have we always used because we don't want to go through change, what do we have to buy because it is sold by a minority or women owned company, what do we have to buy because the Congresscritter that represents the area the company is in is pushing for the bid.
I have also been on the LE side of procurement...the same applies as the above. The exception is what the company can offer the Chief, Sheriff, Board, Commissioners, Mayor....in free gifts that will swing the bid their way.
In dang near every test and evaluation done on scopes by knowledgeable people Leupold does not fair well at all anymore in the price point that they compete. Actually they do horrible.
Nightforce for one example is talking a lot of contracts from my local LE from Leupold. Most all are thrilled as the Nightforce's hold up MUCH better, ie..they don't break.
The old joke was the Leupold needed their lifetime warranty because the user needed it also....cause they broke so much.
Leupold is much like Kimber (if you are in the 1911 world). Like Kimber, Leupold buys two color full page ads in EVERY gun mag published. They sponsor every TV show, and sponcer A LOT of good shooters. So if you tell the public you are the best for long enough....people believe you.
Leupold was dominate 20 plus years ago, you couldn't get much better. Now they are just mediocre in their price range.
2muchgun
New member
[quote/]Two distributors said they are made in Chinlee.In dang near every test and evaluation done on scopes by knowledgeable people Leupold does not fair well at all anymore in the price point that they compete. Actually they do horrible.[/quote]
What 2 distributors said that?
What tests? Done by who? Can you give me some examples?
What 2 distributors said that?
What tests? Done by who? Can you give me some examples?
Hail Caesar
New member
Zanders and RSR.
Go to SWFA forums. Go to Sniper Hide and Sniper Central. Read stuff by Koshin, Lowlight, ect, ect, ect....
Go to SWFA forums. Go to Sniper Hide and Sniper Central. Read stuff by Koshin, Lowlight, ect, ect, ect....
2muchgun
New member
Zanders and RSR? Really? That's like asking the local idiot at Cabelas or Gander Mt.
BTDT. I've read plenty of Ilya's "scope reviews". He has yet to impress me. Never heard him say Leupys were made in China, though.
See I tend to live in a reality based world. And the reality of the situation is that Leupold was awarded at least about $6-$7 million in military contracts last year alone. Products were tested and evaluated, bids were submitted, and Leupold won the contracts. Roughly $2.5 million from the Marines, $2.5 million from the Feds, and over $1.5 million from the Army. These are just the ones I am aware of, there could be more.
Let me guess though, the Army, Marines, and Feds, do not qualify as "knowledgable people" as you say, and the scopes must have "performed horribly", as you say, to be awarded such contracts
Think I'm done here. Really not much more to say..........
BTDT. I've read plenty of Ilya's "scope reviews". He has yet to impress me. Never heard him say Leupys were made in China, though.
See I tend to live in a reality based world. And the reality of the situation is that Leupold was awarded at least about $6-$7 million in military contracts last year alone. Products were tested and evaluated, bids were submitted, and Leupold won the contracts. Roughly $2.5 million from the Marines, $2.5 million from the Feds, and over $1.5 million from the Army. These are just the ones I am aware of, there could be more.
Let me guess though, the Army, Marines, and Feds, do not qualify as "knowledgable people" as you say, and the scopes must have "performed horribly", as you say, to be awarded such contracts
Think I'm done here. Really not much more to say..........
Hail Caesar
New member
2much,
So since you asked me questions, so may I ask;
Are you LE?
Are you LE with procurement experiences?
Are you in a position in LE that you even see a scope let alone use one?
Are you prior serve AD Military with procurement experiences?
Are you a scope-a-holic?
Do you buy/use/train with multiple scopes?
Are you a Distributor with an extensive line of scopes?
Who do you know at Zanders? Especially with them as I am especially familiar with them as employees and the owner. Which one is the "local idiot"? Is it Glenda?
So since you asked me questions, so may I ask;
Are you LE?
Are you LE with procurement experiences?
Are you in a position in LE that you even see a scope let alone use one?
Are you prior serve AD Military with procurement experiences?
Are you a scope-a-holic?
Do you buy/use/train with multiple scopes?
Are you a Distributor with an extensive line of scopes?
Who do you know at Zanders? Especially with them as I am especially familiar with them as employees and the owner. Which one is the "local idiot"? Is it Glenda?