Long range target shooters, is it light, is it temperature, is it mirage, .......
- Thread starter Michael J. McCasland
- Start date
pokerplayer
New member
I believe that light refraction may be the culprit. We were discussing this post at the shop today, I can tell you from persoal trial and error not only the shooting east or west the angle of the sun from the south horizon will have an effect. mount a scope on a fixed base zeroed on a point @ 100yd and check it thru out the day and keep records I do know that at 200yds I have been off over 8" from 8am to 4pm in june shooting east as for scope I cant say I shoot peeps.
Michael,
In my earlier post above, I had mentioned some ideas such as shooting the same range and conditions. I also mentioned the fact that a lot of benchrest shooters have to deal with these problems. Your right, it is one thing to shoot from a bench, and another to go out in the field.
My personal experience has been to find out how accurate I can make a particular rifle shoot. If there is great consistency at the bench at specific ranges with a accurate handload, you know that the rifle is capable of doing what you want it to do, which builds up your confidence in the rifle and your ability to hit targets with it.
The field however, is another matter for sure. I think that someone can advise and help you with problems like mirage, wind and other problems to a certain point. After that, it becomes a matter of practice with that weapon in the field or match. This is what will help you take that shot at 300+ yards at a coyote if you have to, or a balloon, and still be able to make consistent hits.
Just an example: Take a 243 Remington 700 out in the field over the course of a year and shoot at running jacks out to 200-300 yards. You might shoot as much as a thousand rounds in that time or maybe even more.
Then pick up that rifle when deer season comes around. I will guarantee that if you have to take a shot at a deer that you have jumped and is running full out, chances are you are going to pile him up on the first shot. You have been shooting through mirages, wind, and other elements including movement through out the year at different ranges. You are no longer thinking about all the elements, you just go into remote control and take the shot. You have already shot on many days with different conditions and you have already assessed the conditions for the shot you are taking.
Since I've rambled on too long now, I will narrow my thoughts down to 2 things that I think are important.
Know that your rifle is capable of making tough shots by testing it's accuracy at different ranges on a bench or something solid.
Then take it out in the field and do some serious practice with it. If you don't have a lot of time or ammo, try to make the most of what you have.
Jack is right about match shooting, or for any type of shooting for that matter. If you want to be a serious threat to your competition at the range-or the game you are hunting, then you need to do some serious practicing.
JMHO- Mike
In my earlier post above, I had mentioned some ideas such as shooting the same range and conditions. I also mentioned the fact that a lot of benchrest shooters have to deal with these problems. Your right, it is one thing to shoot from a bench, and another to go out in the field.
My personal experience has been to find out how accurate I can make a particular rifle shoot. If there is great consistency at the bench at specific ranges with a accurate handload, you know that the rifle is capable of doing what you want it to do, which builds up your confidence in the rifle and your ability to hit targets with it.
The field however, is another matter for sure. I think that someone can advise and help you with problems like mirage, wind and other problems to a certain point. After that, it becomes a matter of practice with that weapon in the field or match. This is what will help you take that shot at 300+ yards at a coyote if you have to, or a balloon, and still be able to make consistent hits.
Just an example: Take a 243 Remington 700 out in the field over the course of a year and shoot at running jacks out to 200-300 yards. You might shoot as much as a thousand rounds in that time or maybe even more.
Then pick up that rifle when deer season comes around. I will guarantee that if you have to take a shot at a deer that you have jumped and is running full out, chances are you are going to pile him up on the first shot. You have been shooting through mirages, wind, and other elements including movement through out the year at different ranges. You are no longer thinking about all the elements, you just go into remote control and take the shot. You have already shot on many days with different conditions and you have already assessed the conditions for the shot you are taking.
Since I've rambled on too long now, I will narrow my thoughts down to 2 things that I think are important.
Know that your rifle is capable of making tough shots by testing it's accuracy at different ranges on a bench or something solid.
Then take it out in the field and do some serious practice with it. If you don't have a lot of time or ammo, try to make the most of what you have.
Jack is right about match shooting, or for any type of shooting for that matter. If you want to be a serious threat to your competition at the range-or the game you are hunting, then you need to do some serious practicing.
JMHO- Mike
Michael J. McCasland
New member
Mike Paul and all - Excellent series of responses. Thank you. I'm most impressed with Jack Roberts post that said:
"The 168MK, fired at 3050fps, from a 10" right hand twist barrel, will deflect 30.3" at 600 yards in a 10mph wind. It also will deflect -2.6" if the wind is from left to right and +2.6 in a right to left wind."
How many of you compensate for not just wind drift but for the + or - elevation deflection of the wind. Interesting, very interesting. Thanks Jack, heck thanks all of you. Each has provided excellent advice. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
"The 168MK, fired at 3050fps, from a 10" right hand twist barrel, will deflect 30.3" at 600 yards in a 10mph wind. It also will deflect -2.6" if the wind is from left to right and +2.6 in a right to left wind."
How many of you compensate for not just wind drift but for the + or - elevation deflection of the wind. Interesting, very interesting. Thanks Jack, heck thanks all of you. Each has provided excellent advice. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Michael Lane
New member
I would also like to say thanks to all who posted on the topic to date, has made me think about somethings. I would like to say this about mirage. I have found that when the conditions your shooting in has your target move up and down or the target has that quick down and up motion,if you focus on the detail you will see the point where the target returns to. If you can see the point where the target returns to each time you can make that point your aiming point. I had had some first round hits with this theory.Just something I look for in mirage conditions that has helped me. Wish you all the best. Michael Lane
Michael Lane
New member
If I understand what some have posted and the thoughts between the lines of the posted information onething that seems to hold true for all of us is this. Air that is dense slows a bullet down more causeing bullet impact lower. If humidity is up air is less dense so bullet impact is up. If I am right with all of this then as humidity is rising air is less dense so bullet flight time is farther/faster with some less bullet drop. As humidity drops air is more dense so bullet flight time is slower with more bullet drop due to the air being more dense. As air gets cooled humidity goes up air is less dense so bullet impact is higher. That is what I make out of all this.Knowing what dew point is and knowing what humidity is doing one can get a idea of what bullet flight time and effect air denseity will have on bullet impact in the conditions your shooting in.
Michael J. McCasland
New member
Encore - Why is that I think I'm glad that I didn't see your full post. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
Michael Lane
Your understanding of humidity effects is correct except for this one sentence;
"As air gets cooled humidity goes up air is less dense so bullet impact is higher."
The effect of temperature is many times more important than humidity. The cooler temperature makes the air more dense.
To use aeronautical terms, the best way to reference things is to Density Altitude, which is your actual altitude corrected for temperature and humidity differences from the "Standard Temperature and Humidity." Pilot shops sell calculators, electronic and mechanical, which will calculate Density Altitude when you plug in the numbers. In very hot weather, your Density Altitude can be 5000 feet higher than your actual altitude. Most ballistics programs also allow you to adjust them for non-standard temperatures and humidity.
Jack
Your understanding of humidity effects is correct except for this one sentence;
"As air gets cooled humidity goes up air is less dense so bullet impact is higher."
The effect of temperature is many times more important than humidity. The cooler temperature makes the air more dense.
To use aeronautical terms, the best way to reference things is to Density Altitude, which is your actual altitude corrected for temperature and humidity differences from the "Standard Temperature and Humidity." Pilot shops sell calculators, electronic and mechanical, which will calculate Density Altitude when you plug in the numbers. In very hot weather, your Density Altitude can be 5000 feet higher than your actual altitude. Most ballistics programs also allow you to adjust them for non-standard temperatures and humidity.
Jack
Michael McCasland, this is what it is all about. I started competing in 600yrd rifle compation about a year ago. These boyes can shoot our x ring is 3 inches at 600yrds. Ten ring is six inches. A winning score would be a 298-299 with a 18-22x count. The magority of your proublem is you sight in for one condition and shoot in another. Try this little experament At seven in the morning set up your scope on an target at 300yrds, now leve it alone come back at noon and see the different sight picture you now have. Try and sight in for the conditions you plan to shoot in. And always keep a log, that you can go back to again and again. You will start to see a pattern on how each gun and load shoots.
Michael J. McCasland
New member
Tthe dog hunter2 - Thank you for you advice. Since the origional post I've sent a bunch of bullets down range and have started (notice I did not say "have") to get a handle on some of the difficulties that I was having. This is great fun and am learning every time out.
DOD
New member
Question for you folks. If shooting out at 600 yards, do you have to hold a valid license for the neighboring state? LOL. Just adding a little levity.
I am located in New Hampshire, and the thought of shooting out to 600 yards is unreal around here. I am just getting into center fire shooting and love it so far. I hope to learn from you folks that have been doing it and relish it so much.
I am located in New Hampshire, and the thought of shooting out to 600 yards is unreal around here. I am just getting into center fire shooting and love it so far. I hope to learn from you folks that have been doing it and relish it so much.
Michael J. McCasland
New member
DOD - I'm finding that my idea of what truely long range is has changed over the years. At one time 100yards was out there a long ways. Then I came out west and saw the Silhouette ranges and the 200 meter chickens seemed to be out there and I remember very well the first time I actually saw a 223 hit and knock over a Javilina Silhouette target at 300 meters, I was sooooo amazed I almost fell down. Then I read the Carlos Hathcock book and got to wondering about long range work. This lead to Prairie Dogs in northern Arizona, which lead to Prairie Dog matches. With a caliber restriction to 22 or 6mm, man those 200, 300 and 400 (Not to mention those 230, 350 and 400+ meter dogs) meter dogs were a long ways out there in those days. This lead to shooting 200, 300, 389 and 500 meter balloons, a match very similar to that done at the Varmint Hunters Gamberee. The balloon match is open to any caliber but I still like watchin' the big boys sweat by whackin' em' with my 223AI.
The other day we had a 1,000 yard shooter show up with his 300 ultra mag. 1,000 yard rig, a beautiful thing I might add. He thought that he'd show us a thing or two about what long range was all about. Oooops big mistake, on a windy day Ol' Ed Brooks (a 6mm wildcat on a pre-64 Winchester action Ed's the man to beat in this game), Andy Wiliams (old 22-250, rem40x) and I (223AI, 700 rem) left 3,2 and 1 balloons respectively (thats out of 40, 4.5" balloons with a large percentage past 300 meters). The new shooter left almost all the balloons untouched. He left with a different impression and I hope he will be back to play again.
Man that sounded like bragging, it wasn't meant to, what I was trying to illustrate was that long range changes with life experience. I know that for lots of folks my little 500 meter (550yards) range is nothin', I'm eying that 1,000 yard range though, I wonder how that 223AI will handle that ..................... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The other day we had a 1,000 yard shooter show up with his 300 ultra mag. 1,000 yard rig, a beautiful thing I might add. He thought that he'd show us a thing or two about what long range was all about. Oooops big mistake, on a windy day Ol' Ed Brooks (a 6mm wildcat on a pre-64 Winchester action Ed's the man to beat in this game), Andy Wiliams (old 22-250, rem40x) and I (223AI, 700 rem) left 3,2 and 1 balloons respectively (thats out of 40, 4.5" balloons with a large percentage past 300 meters). The new shooter left almost all the balloons untouched. He left with a different impression and I hope he will be back to play again.
Man that sounded like bragging, it wasn't meant to, what I was trying to illustrate was that long range changes with life experience. I know that for lots of folks my little 500 meter (550yards) range is nothin', I'm eying that 1,000 yard range though, I wonder how that 223AI will handle that ..................... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Alan Warner
New member
DOD:
Plenty of places in NH. with 600
Nashua, Pemi, Reading Mass. 1000 yd range in Albany NY.
Contact me for more info and schedules
Alan Warner
wtc@webryders.com
Plenty of places in NH. with 600
Nashua, Pemi, Reading Mass. 1000 yd range in Albany NY.
Contact me for more info and schedules
Alan Warner
wtc@webryders.com
You want to talk thick TDH2, how about these guys down here trying to hit a pr. dog at 2 miles?? They have to buy a duck and goose stamp before they start shooting-- just in case.
MJM, you might consider posting this same question on www.longrangehunting.com There are some pretty educated folks on that forum. It would be interesting to see what they've got to say about your dilemma.
MJM, you might consider posting this same question on www.longrangehunting.com There are some pretty educated folks on that forum. It would be interesting to see what they've got to say about your dilemma.