M&P Smith - 9mm or 40 sw.

I agree, the trigger pull on the Sigma I fiddled with scaled 13+ lbs. Heavy by any standard, but for a cheapie semi-auto, it shot well. For $100.00 more, after rebate, the M&P rocks. I consider it a great value for the shooter on a budget.
 
Wyo I don't take what you are saying as squabbling and understand where you are coming from. You will notice that I qualified that statement by saying I don't notice that much difference not that there wasn't what much. Everyone preceives it differently. I'm not a small fella (about 6'3 and 300 lbs) and have very large hands so preceived recoil from most pistols isnt that much for me until you get into really large calibers (ex: 44 mag, etc...) Someone smaller will probably notice it much more. \

I have a .45 Para Ord Warthawg that I carry and to me it really does not recoil bad. To me it rises slightly off target and settles back gently.

I've never shot a Kahr and they may kick like a mule but my expeience between the 9mm I've owned (S&W 59, H&K USP, and Tarus) and the 40s (Glock 22, Firestar M40, and Sig 226) has been mild in the recoil area.

I reread what I said about the hardball ammo and I could said that a lot better. The point I was attempting to make was that most people use it for pratice and then swith to more appropiate ammo for protection. However, many people just use one for all and in my opinion they are terrible man stoppers in a 9mm. Not much better in the 40 but if I had to shoot them out of one or the other I would do so in the 40.

I carry Gold Dots in my .40 and Black Talons in my .45s. I would not hesitate to use a SWC in the .45 in a pinch but it is not my usual load.
 
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18 rounds of Speer Gold Dots in the palm of my hand...you've got nothing to worry about.



Hopefully you are just having fun, cause if you want to live a long and full life, you have to know better than that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



?? Maybe I'm missing something?? The M&P 9 is 17+1 and the Speer Gold Dots in 9mm are a very effective self-defense round. Am I missing the joke?

Maybe I should have said "18 rounds of Speer GD's in my hand, I've got nothing to worry about"....but you (insert name of badguy) do. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I think the point GC was trying to make is being in any situation where you have to use those 18 rounds of Speer Gold Dots and you got plenty to worry about. There are no guarantees in a gun fight. The best way to live a long full life is to never be in a situation where you have to use deadly force.

I certainly appreciate the point you were trying to make that there is some comfort in knowing you have those 18 rounds. No offense but most people have no idea what its like to be in a gunfight. I do, and I would be willing to bet that so does GC.
 
yeah... 18 rounds are nice, but remember in the real world the "the rule of 3" when it comes to self defense with a pistol:

3 seconds
3 shots
at 3 feet

That is all you will have to worry about... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I am going for the M&P compact in 40 s&w at the end of the summer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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I think the point GC was trying to make is being in any situation where you have to use those 18 rounds of Speer Gold Dots and you got plenty to worry about. There are no guarantees in a gun fight. The best way to live a long full life is to never be in a situation where you have to use deadly force.

I certainly appreciate the point you were trying to make that there is some comfort in knowing you have those 18 rounds. No offense but most people have no idea what its like to be in a gunfight. I do, and I would be willing to bet that so does GC.



Agreed. I was just trying to make the point that the 9mm, especially with the Speer GD's is a very effective self-defense tool...and that it doesn't take a .40 or .45 to be considered self-defense (I also have both these calibers). I don't have any experience with gunfights, but that's why I train and am skilled with the weapons I carry, so if a situation arises where deadly force is unavoidable, I can fall back on my training. But I certainly agree, if a situation does arise and I need 18 rounds, some serious sh*t has hit the fan. If the situation did arise I would much rather be involved in a shooting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif (me shooting) than a gunfight /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif (people shooting back at me)! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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I am going for the M&P compact in 40 s&w at the end of the summer.



If you can, you may look at getting one before the end of this month. S&W has a deal going when you buy a new M&P, you get a rebate(mail in) for $50 and two free mags (mags are about $30 each). Just a heads up.

Regardless, I really like my M&P, it fits my hand better than my Glock and it feels a little more like a 1911 (as far as the natural point of aim), which I like.
 
I had a 9mm M&P and it was a great shooter. I just didn't like it more than my HK USP 9mm so I sold it to buy a P2000SK which turned out to be my favorite gun for carry. You'll enjoy the M&P.

Caliber is going to be your personal prefernce. I have 9, .40 and .45 cal pistols and like my 9's the best....but that's just me.
 
WyoSongDog,
I have - and it ain't like the cop shows on TV... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
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WyoSongDog,
I have - and it ain't like the cop shows on TV... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif



I am with you brother. Been there done that and hope I can do 7 more years without doing it anymore. Probably wishful thinking the way things are going.
 
Seen that one before Fast Ed and most of it is very good wisdom. Although I carry a .40S&W, I would have to say I disagree with only rule #23. I have seen more than a few not walk away from two to the chest with a 147 grain Speer Gold Dots. The 9mm is a very under rated man stopper with the right load and the 147 grain Speer Gold Dot will git er done
 
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General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.


You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.


Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2


* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.


* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.
 
Interesting to say the least although the key word here is Theoretical.

What throws a monkey wrench into all of this data is the fact that any defensive training, regardless of its source (Law Enforcement, Military, Civilian Combat Firearms), does not teach the delivery of one shot and wait and see what happens. Close quarter combat is about placing as many accurate shots as possible into the center mass of a target until the threat goes away. Charts like the one above are interesting and can be helpful but in the real world they mean little or nothing. The key to stopping a threat is a massive drop in blood pressure and multiple hits into the center mass of a human target with any of those listed calibers will do the trick.

Case in point. The .22LR has a pitiful rating of 4.2 yet I have seen the pitiful old .22LR take more human lives in one shot than any other single caliber on that list. More than I care to talk about. Both accidental and on purpose.

As stated, it is interesting data and I would like to know more about the formula that Hatcher used to come up with these ratings.
 
Thats interesting! Where did you get this info from? Is there a formula to sue to figure this out? I don't carry but just the comparision of the figures is kinda fun. I also think this a good place to start for people who are looking to carry. Thanks
Mark
 
Theories abound by the dozen. Most are lacking in one area or another in real world encounters. A handgun is just that - it's handy. I carry one because it is awkward to pack my Benelli M1S90 .12 gauge with me everywhere I go. But you can rest assured it is never too far away and hopefully my handgun allows me to get to the .12 gauge so I have a decisive tool to solve the problem at hand.
 
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General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge.



Theoretical being the key word. I like both the 9 and the 45 in pistols but I'm skeptical when the words "stopping power" and/or "one shot stop" are used in conjunction with handgun calibers.
 
Personally i like the all three rounds 9mm, 40, and 45. If the pistol is the same size then go with the 45 acp if the weapon is smaller in the sub cal's then i would go with the smaller weapon for conceal carry. Stopping power has more to do with shot or bullet placement than the cal size but bigger is usually better in most cases. If you want the best defense cal then buy your self a 357 magnum . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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