Mexico Demands U.S. Allow More Immigration

danurve

danurve

New member
I don't think you boys will like this one.
source
MEXICO CITY


Diplomats from Mexico and Central America on Monday demanded guest worker programs and the legalization of undocumented migrants in the United States, while criticizing a U.S. proposal for tougher border enforcement.

Meeting in Mexico's capital, the regional officials pledged to do more to fight migrant trafficking, but indirectly condemned a U.S. bill that would make illegal entry a felony and extend border walls.

"Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals," they said.

The countries represented at the meeting _ including Mexico, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Belize and Panama _ created a working group to design a regional policy to avoid migrant abuse and to follow the course of the legislation.

"There has to be an integrated reform that includes a temporary worker program, but also the regularization of those people who are already living in receptor countries," Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said.

Derbez has called the measure _ which passed the U.S. House of Representatives last month but still must go before the Senate _ "stupid and underhanded," but was somewhat more restrained on Monday, saying "it's not the Mexican government's position to tell the U.S. Senate what to do."

The U.S. proposal has caused widespread resentment in Mexico, where some have accused President Vicente Fox's administration of not being assertive enough in opposing it. Fox has called the bill shameful.

Mexicans working in the United States are a huge source of revenue for Mexico, sending home more than $16 billion in remittances in 2004, Mexico's second largest source of foreign currency after oil exports according to the country's central bank.

Fox's spokesman, Ruben Aguilar, defended the administration's record on Monday, telling reporters that migration has declined in recent years, though official figures show it remains at historically high levels.

Aguilar also said migrants "don't emigrate because they lack work, but rather for a series of other reasons, cultural reasons or better living conditions."
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Hows that? Now I live in the N.E. so no way can I claim to completely understand the problems illegals cause at the Mex. border. But Im not blind either. This just frikkin [beeep] me off, some high peso dressed suit & tie foreigner placing demands on our policys? Bunch of welfare loving maggots. I hate @ssholes like that. We are supposta be the Trout with the Lamprey attached to it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif How do you describe the feeling where you know your tax dollars are being waisted into a system that atttacts illegals, just like skeeters, flys, and other f*kin parasites to a sleeping host.
 
I feel the same way...No way these other people should be telling us to change our policies to fit their wants.
The desert down in Southern Arizona looks like the filthiest part of town you can imagine from these people using it to come across the border.
There is more trash in these deserts that used to to be the most pristine country around. The roads they have cut through the desert will never recover and I am sure they are not done tearing it up yet.
 
Pi$$ on 'em. I'd like to see/hear Bush and our worthless politicians tell them that. It's our country, we should keep it that way. I've got nothing against legal, documented immigration into this country, that's what we're all about. However, the floodgates of illegal immigration must be closed if we are to secure our future as something other than a slave to Mexico. I don't mind this state being called New Mexico, but I see real opportunities for this entire country to be renamed that...
 
The whole problem exists because our spineless Congress won't get tough about. I think that virtually all of them are a bunch of bought off crooks. I going to keep saying it, "Vote 'em out, All of 'em". Maybe if they all lose their jobs the newcomers might sit up and take note. The ones that have violated their oath of office should be thrown in jail. End of rant (for today).
 
Danurve, et al,

Well, what else did you expect out of Mexico and those south of them? They have been leeching off of us for decades.

First off, I don't give a flip about what Vicente Fox, or Mexico says about how we run our country. Someone better tell them that if they pi$$ us off enough we will start pulling our manufacturning facilities out of there too. Tourism has already declined heavily because they are robbing, raping, and killing our people. So, they send their criminals north to do it in our own backyards. Doesn't that sound like terrorism to you too? It sure does me.

The article stated, "Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals," they said.

Well let me just say this in response to that statement. Just try to enter Mexico illegally, heaven forbid, and if you get caught you will be put in prison with no food except that which is sent to you by your own relatives. Mexican prisons are a dead end street, folks. Ever know anyone that has been there? Well, I've known a few that accidently ended up in their hoosegow, and let me tell you it is worse than going to the old dungeons of the past. Any kind of corruption you can imagine happens there, plus no protection from the guards, and you have to buy your way into everything. Not a pleasant place to be for sure.

THEN, they have the gall to refer to people being treated like criminals? Total BS!

Build the fence/wall! Block them out, except only by legal immigration. Then, send every one of them back that came here illegally. If, they resist arrest, make them do community labor for at least 30 days before returning them to Mexico.

Its time for our elected officials to stand up and do what is right for our country. They better, or some will be looking for new jobs soon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif

(end of rant)

Bill /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Ahh, if only... It'll never happen. The Hispanic political lobby is now to powerful. In 40 years we'll all live in "New Mexico"
 
Hey, don't give up hope! All it take is some good grass roots efforts on our part with lost of letter writing and phone calls. Those derelects up in Washington want to keep their posh jobs so bad that they will defintely listen when the heat gets to them. Just keep pouring it on. Believe me, they will get the message. Stand firm, and be firm in your convictions.

Bill /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
We hear advise from other countries all the the time. None of them are doing as well as us by just about any measure. It's kind of like me giving Warren Buffett financial advise, laughable. To cut them a little slack though, that advise is usually for local consumption and is really aimed at their own political base, not us. It is politically popular around the world to beat up on America.

The problem with the illegals jumping the border is emotionally and politically charged, and often not completely understood. It is played to the hilt by both political parties and the media.

The "problem" is actually two inter-related problems, the illegals that are already here, and the illegals that will be coming in the future.

It is not a financial problem. According to the OMB, we actually gain much more in revenue than we lose. An illegal working on a fake green card and ssn is having taxes etc. withheld from his pay, that he will never see a refund for, or be able to collect social security on. This more than offsets the costs to the taxpayer in welfare, social services, etc.

The problem isn't in the number of people already here, or coming across. With an unemployment rate of 5%, we are at, or near, the employment saturation point. Socio-economists say that without forced labor laws, ala the Soviet Union, 4.5-5% is as low an unemployment rate as we will ever get. Some people just don't want to work. The people coming across our borders to work, are in fact, filling a need in our system. If there were not jobs to be filled, the flow would dry up, as it has in the past. Look at the numbers during the Carter administration.

The real problem is the violent street crime, and potential terrorism, that is associated with the illegal population. In some areas, 30% of the prison population is made up of illegals. Almost all of these had criminal records in their country of origin, before they ever came here.

We know of potential terrorists, Middle Easterners and Chechens, etc., who have been smuggled across at prices up to $50,000. This is truly frightening. Obviously they were not coming here looking for work.

The solution(s)? What might work and what won't work? Well, there's the rub, as they say.

To stop any more illegals from coming across, a wall sounds good at first blush, but it would only slow the flow down temporarily. Breaching walls, or tunnelling under them, has worked since ancient Greece and before. We could truly "seal" the border with mine-fields, machine-gun emplacements, air-power, etc, but besides being horribly expensive, that would only work until some 18YR old PFC shot a mother and her kid. Then whichever party was in power would fall at the polls, and the next in power would put a stop to it, to quell public and international condemnation.

A better, though still imperfect, solution, would be to have some sort of cheap, quick, and easy, guest worker program. It would have to include criminal background checks in the country of origin, photos, fingerprints, probably DNA records, and some sort of ID card that would be virtually impossible to counterfeit. With holographic and encrypted computer chip technology this should be doable.

The idea behind the guest worker program concept, is that if we made it easier and cheaper for honest workers to come here legally, they would stop coming across illegally.

This would leave anybody that was trying to bust the border a bad guy by definition, and that 18YR old PFC who shot him, would be a hero.

The problem with those illegals that are already here is a tougher nut to crack. First, without stopping the flow of illegals coming across the border, anything we do is just pi$$ing in the wind. Second is the problem of finding them.

While there are some employers that hire illegals "off the books", the vast majority follow the rules as far as they can. We already have laws making it illegal for employers to hire anyone without documentation, but they are impossible to enforce from a practical standpoint.

I am 100% sure that I have hired illegals when I was a contractor, but I couldn't prove it, because they always had green cards and social security cards. There was no way for me, as an employer, to tell the difference between a real card and a counterfeit one. They are just card-stock and easily reproducible on any copy machine.

A holographic photo, encrypted chip embedded, card system would allow us to better enforce employer responsibility laws.

From a practical standpoint, this program would have to be phased in over some period of time to avoid massive disruption of our economy. Those currently here illegally would either have to return across the border, go through he background checks, and apply for guest worker status, or under the Bush "not an amnesty (LOL)" plan, could pay some amount as a "not a fine" processing fee, and be processed here.

Making the 11-15 million illegals already here, legal, would eliminate the fear they have of being caught by "La Migra", and they would be more willing to cooperate with authorities in identifying the bad guys (criminals and potential terrorists) already here. At least that's the theory.

Much of the public outcry, learning engish, welfare, schooling, etc., misses the point, IMHO. Some of these may have some validity, but in todays, post 9/11 world, the real danger is to our security.

We have a big problem that's getting bigger by the day. Unfortunately I suspect that we may not do anything to address it until it's too late, and we are hit by a dirty bomb or some other terrorist atrocity (remember those dozen Chechens we know came across with heavy backpacks and then disappeared?).

That seems to be the American Way.
 
Nmleon,some of the points contained in your essay are valid and IMHO, some are not.You have stated that the government (federal,state and local) collect taxes from illegals resulting in a net gain to our ecconomy.I have seen that same line in the propoganda handed out by the hispanic lobbies.It is ludicrous to believe that an employer who is knowingly, and most do know, hireing illegals is reporting the incomes of those illegals.Quite frankly the business community in this country is a very big part of the problem.Hireing illegals at below minimum wage is a form of outsourcing, only in reverse.Since the jobs can not be sent to Mexico, or some other third world country,the slave labor is brought here.To the benefit of business owners.
You have also stated that the issue of illegal immigration is a political issue used to the benefit of both parties.Again, IMHO, that is not so.The Republican and Democrat politicians would like to ignore the problem, after all they have for many years.The only reason that some politicians are acting at all on the problem,most are not, is that a grassroots groundswell is occuring in America.An example of this is the action taken just this week to have the Arizona National Guard patrol the border in support of the Border Patrol.That order was given by the governor of Arizona, a Democrat with broad support from the hispanic community.The only reason she has acted now is that her constituancy, non-hispanics, has issued her an ultimatum; do something now to control the border.She is coming up for re-election and sees the handwriting on the wall.
Also,IMHO,the notion that the border problem is important only for reasons of national security is also not accurate.While it is true that national security is an important element in the crisis, it is also true that the problem has been recognized, by many, for decades.9/11 has only served to force the governments' hand.
It will be wise for the American people to remember the words of President Ronald Reagan regarding the issue of uncontrolled illegal immigration into the USA. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif
 
America's borders must be dismantled to help pave the way to world government. Could it be thats why our elitest politicians will not really do anything to curb illegal immigration? Just a thought.
 
Here's something interesting to think about. I have a neighbor that legally emigrated from Mexico. But she also has family that did not come so legally. She says that it is not the American government that stops most illegals to cross the way they do. She says that the Mexican government charges huge amounts of money to those that want to come to America and work legally. Graft and corruption in Mexico is one of the biggest problems.
 
ADK,

The cost benefit analysis I heard of was from the U.S. Office of Management and Budget (OMB), not a special interest group. I understand, however, that if the Social Security Totalization bill is passed, that analysis will be reversed (we would pay benefits to illegals and legals even if they are no longer here).

The U.S Census Bureau estimates that more than half of all illegal immigrants hold legitimate (taxpaying) jobs. I forget the exact number, but I think it was in the 60% range.

As a building contractor, I "knowingly" hired many illegal aliens. Actually it would be more accurate to say that I strongly suspected they were illegal, since they had (fake) green cards and Social Security cards, and often (real) drivers licences. I would find out that things were not right, sometimes six months later, when the IRS sent me a letter informing me that the account number and name on the social security card were not valid. By that time, of course, the individual had moved on.

I did not pay slave wages. Our guys (commercial interior walls and sheetrock) averaged $18hr if calculated on an hourly basis (we paid piece work), when the union journeyman wages for the same skill paid $14.65 an hr. I most definitely did withhold and submit all appropriate taxes etc. While I could not be penalized for hiring workers with fake documents, the penalties for hiring them "off the books" were very large, and competing contractors would gladly have turned me in to the IRS. On most jobs, the GC (General Contractor) required proof that all withholding requirements were being met, to cover their own legal butts.

It can be shown statistically, that illegal immigration pushes wages down, but a complete analysis shows that the reason is largely because of the lack of education of the illegals causing them to take lower paying jobs, not because they are being paid less than minimum wage.

I am not a contractor any more, but I understand that the unskilled day labor rate (here in Phoenix) is $8-10hr. Well above minimum wage.

Yes, politicians (from both parties) do tend to respond to the public outcry of the moment, and ignore the issue otherwise, no matter what that issue is. Unfortunately, they rarely do anything that's actually substantive until the situation reaches crisis-es proportions and then usually overreact. I doubt that Napolitano is going to KEEP the AZ national guard on the border, and her and Richardson's "declarations of emergency" weren't anything more than that, declarations. It's just "throw a dog a bone" (and beat up the other side) politics as usual.

You're right that the problem has been recognized by many for decades, and some attempts have been made to fix it. One of the very few mistakes President Reagan made, IMHO, was to pass an amnesty bill without effectively addressing the illegal inflow at the same time.

While illegal immigration may be building towards a crises economically and socially, my point was that It is already at a crises level from a security standpoint. Unfortunately, I suspect that a whole bunch (more) of us are going to be killed in some terrorist attack before we, and our elected representatives, have the will to take meaningful and comprehensive action.

Leon
 
Danurve ,

I hear you our countries leaders are not held accountable at all ,they are sworn into office and won't do their job.
We should never let mexico dictate anything to us.
I wonder if the usa takes some crap from mexico because of the fear that they might allow privledges to our enemies?

ADK ,imo if there are tax dollars coming in to our gov't. they will not jump up and race out and run the tax payer back to mexico because he is here illegally.They don't have that much of a problem with taking tax dollars ,in others words the beltway types aren't the most patriotic bunch!!
As Leon stated they do not work for low wages for the most part.They are very transient ,they'll pack up the whole tribe and chase the money.
Hispanics ,are running their own business's all over the south east.They have all hispanic employees many of which have false documentation.

Greg ,You're right about our gov't ,the thing about them is their unaffected by all of this.
I said this the other day !,if white collar america's jobs were affected by the illegals it would be a different story!

I've read our constitution and bill of rights it clearly states that it is every persons duty to have a militia that is trained and ready to protect this countries constitution.
The media has people so brainwashed that if you were to mention a militia you must be a right wing crazy that is living proof that guns should be outlawed.
Sadly that would be the mentality of the vast majority of people in this country.
Man don't the future look bright ,glad i don't have kids!!! ME
 
If anyone wants to have an idea of how well "we" are doin on the border, I watched "The Point with Mark Hyman" last night, it was about the border. The point was, our border is broken. An illegal, with a record was deported to mexico, and within two, just two days he was picked up again in Colorado with a pistol, and drugs in his possesion.
What a failed system border patrol has on their hands, or we have on our hands. It is a painfull reality to know many of the politicians we have turning a blind eye to the border, also want to disarm us. I'd like to know or see their reaction to illegals with criminal records in their neighborhood.
Im getting sick of watching my country deteriorate because of [beeep] gutless politicians.
 
nmleon, are you saying that businesses in NM and Ar routinely hire legal and illegal aliens at an hourly wage at or above union scale? Please tell me that's not what you meant. In my region we have many American citizens, born and raised in this state,who would love to find a job that pays $18.00 per hour. For that matter, for many in my region, $14.65 would be an improvement and it would'nt matter if they are skilled or unskilled workers. Is the economy really that strong where you are that you find it necessary to hire legal and/or illegal aliens? Please help me to understand as I find your statement to be incredible.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
I am not defending the practice of hiring illegal aliens at all. But you must consider this, the true cost of a worker is far higher that the wage they take home. Matching funds with Social Security, health care costs, unemployment insurance, retirement .............. and much more than I know is all part of the expense of being an employer. I suppose an illegal or an under the counter employee of any sort would actually cost less even if you pay union scale or even a little higher.
 
Quote:
nmleon, are you saying that businesses in NM and Ar routinely hire legal and illegal aliens at an hourly wage at or above union scale? Please tell me that's not what you meant. In my region we have many American citizens, born and raised in this state,who would love to find a job that pays $18.00 per hour. For that matter, for many in my region, $14.65 would be an improvement and it would'nt matter if they are skilled or unskilled workers. Is the economy really that strong where you are that you find it necessary to hire legal and/or illegal aliens? Please help me to understand as I find your statement to be incredible.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif



Actually that was in the Los Angeles area, and yes we did pay better than union scale, but it's a little more complicated than that.

We could not be kept from bidding on a union job (right to work), but we had to show that our guys were making at least union scale. We paid piece work to the crew based on the linear ft of wall completed, and it was then divvied up in shares, depending on the skill, sheetrock hanger, mudder/taper, framer, zip gun, etc. In order to bid the job we had to figure the equivalent hourly wage.

The REAL difference was in the work output. The union requirements said that a crew of 8 would complete 900+ (960?) ft of wall in a day, and that is exactly what they would do. Not an inch more or less.

Our crew (also 8 man) would regularly complete 1500-1600 ft of wall, and a couple of times approached 2000FT. In other words, while we paid more than union scale on an hourly basis, we paid less per equivalent ft of wall. Our guys made 20%+ more dollars, because they completed at least 50-60% more wall. They worked their butts off, but that's a whole other topic, don't get me started on union work ethics.

We also hired native born whites, blacks, etc. at the same piece work rate, but the (often illegal) Mexicans consistently made more (and made more for us) than any others because of the way they worked.

Leon
 
"We also hired native born whites, blacks, etc. at the same piece work rate, but the (often illegal) Mexicans consistently made more (and made more for us) than any others because of the way they worked."
Leon


Leon, your statement proves my point; business owners are a very big part of the illegal alien problem. Is your business a minority owned business? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
Quote:
"We also hired native born whites, blacks, etc. at the same piece work rate, but the (often illegal) Mexicans consistently made more (and made more for us) than any others because of the way they worked."
Leon


Leon, your statement proves my point; business owners are a very big part of the illegal alien problem. Is your business a minority owned business? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif



I'm not sure how that proves your point. Look at my previous post. There is no way, then or now, for an employer to determine whether or not the documentation presented is real or counterfeit. As previously stated, I know many of our employees were illegals because I would get a letter from the IRS, 6 months later, saying the name and social security number on the with-holdings was not valid. By that time the individual had moved on and was no longer an employee. Note the the IRS was sending these letters. That's because we were withholding taxes etc. as required by law. Again, read my previous post regarding my perceived need for better (non-counterfeit-able) documentation.

No the contracting business was not minority owned. It was owned by my brother and I. Other than a very small amount of Cherokee and Sioux Indian blood, we are pure WASP Caucasian.

Any employer who wishes to make a profit, will attempt to hire the best (most productive) employees he can. In our general experience, that was usually immigrants, legal and illegal.

I am a master trainer now for a major trucking company and my opinion has not changed with the different work environment. I have never had an immigrant quit during training, whether Eastern European, Hispanic, or Oriental. I lose about 40% of native born American students in training no matter what their ethnicity (including Hispanic). The immigrants are not necessarily better drivers (some are terrible), just generally harder workers.

Sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but it is a well recognized truth among employers, especially when hiring for jobs that involve physical labor and do not require a degree. Unfortunately, many native born Americans (not all) are basically lazy, and waste much of the time they could spend working or getting an education, looking for an "easy buck".

The only employers that can be legitimately considered to be "part of the problem", are those few that hire people "off the books".

If you think you know of a company that is doing this, call the IRS and report them. Not only will they investigate, the IRS will pay you a reward based on the amount of back taxes owed.

If you know of a company that's not paying at least minimum wage and withholding taxes from those wages, and you don't report them, YOU are a part of the problem.
 
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