Muzzle loader greenhorn looking for general input

Originally Posted By: Adrian RudeOriginally Posted By: hunt-m-upI've found firing off a primer will foul enough to make my guns shoot well.

How much different do they shoot without the primer fouling shot?


Depends on the particular rifle.....I haven't noticed huge differences myself. My first shot hits pretty much the same spot as all my others. Before hunting I do load a primer and then stuff a patch down the bore.....I then shoot the primer. The only reason I do that is to make sure the primer hole is clear the patch should get blown out and have a burn mark. If it doesn't look at the flash hole to make sure it's clean, you may need to run a wire through it if it's really bad.


I wouldn't use a full fouling shot myself because my muzzle loader could stay loaded the entire season if I don't see a shooter and it will be pitted if left that long even with the best powders including Blackhorn 209
 
Dude you are looking at the WRRROOOONG bullet weight for elk when it comes to pure lead conicals.

I highly recommend the 338gr powerbelt platinum, along with blackhorn209 and winchester w209 primers. Start out with 90gr volume and see how that does. Try to keep it in the 100-105 range as a max load.

Another bullet I love is www.thorbullets.com these are basically a full bore diameter barnes and they strike with authority and have no powder limits. Being copper, you will not have the fragmentation like powerbelts do.
 
Originally Posted By: RockyMtnHunterDude you are looking at the WRRROOOONG bullet weight for elk when it comes to pure lead conicals.

I highly recommend the 338gr powerbelt platinum, along with blackhorn209 and winchester w209 primers. Start out with 90gr volume and see how that does. Try to keep it in the 100-105 range as a max load.

Another bullet I love is www.thorbullets.com these are basically a full bore diameter barnes and they strike with authority and have no powder limits. Being copper, you will not have the fragmentation like powerbelts do.

I've read quite a bit that power belts fragment, plus they're $1.50 a piece. I can handload center fire with a partition for , what, 45 cents or so. These bullet prices are hard to wrap my head around. I ordered some 460 grain cast from " no excuses" yesterday. Any experience with those? My dad killed a moose in Alaska with a 320 grain cast bullet, seems like 460 grains would do the trick.
 
Blackhorn 209 powder works good for me to. You could try Hornady Great Plains 385 grain hollow points. They mushroom about the size of a quarter and have been known to knock a whitetail off its feet. Very little tracking is usually needed.
 
If your vouchers are not for ML season you can use the scope, sabots, etc. I realize my choice is probably unpopular with todays ml crowd, but I and my hunting partners are killing elk regularly with .54 round balls over 80 to 100 gr of goex or scheutzen 2f or 3f.

NOT trying to convert anybody, just saying that if a 230 gr ball is effective, then maybe you should look for what shoots best and not be overly concerned about the size.

FWIW, a friend drove a 245 gr jacketed powerbelt from brisket to ham on a bull elk. Same bullet from same package and same powder blew up and went to pieces in a small 50# hog! Go figger!
 
Made it out early this morning, here's my range report:

I tried some sabots with some cheapo berrys plated .44 flat points. Accurate enough, and easy on the shoulder. Weird thing was that a 240 grain pistol bullet shot about 6" higher than a 350 grain Hornady FPB at 50 yards.

Blackhorn 209 lived up to its claims in regard to cleaning, but I'm on the fence about it regardless of how clean it is because of the recoil. My first trip out I shot 90 grains of goex black powder with 245 grain power belts. That was about like a 12 gauge shot gun. 90 grains of Blackhorn and 350 grain FPB was almost not fun. My brother in law has an old, beater 7 mag with no recoil pad. The afore mentioned load was comparable to that gun. Goex black powder recoil is a PUSH, the blackhorn snaps like a big center fire. 12 shots was enough for me. I might end up going the old fashioned route in the end, it's too early to tell.

Let me make this clear, if you fellas can blame a big group from an iron sighted gun on something like a clean bore, you're much better than me. I wish I could blame it on the rifle, but c'mon. Range time I need. Practice I must.

On the way home from the range, I bought some Hornady Great Plains 385 grain cast bullets to try next time. I also ordered some 460 grain bullets from "No Excuses". He says they're benchrest quality muzzleloading bullets and offers an unconditional money back guarantee. He also ships bullets using the "honor system". He includes an invoice with your bullets, and want his payment mailed back. If he's that confident in his product, they must be good bullets. I'll report back after I shoot some of these new bullets. I'm also going to do side by side testing with Goex and blackhorn. Please keep the information and opinions coming.
 
Originally Posted By: LongcruiseIf your vouchers are not for ML season you can use the scope, sabots, etc. I realize my choice is probably unpopular with todays ml crowd, but I and my hunting partners are killing elk regularly with .54 round balls over 80 to 100 gr of goex or scheutzen 2f or 3f.

NOT trying to convert anybody, just saying that if a 230 gr ball is effective, then maybe you should look for what shoots best and not be overly concerned about the size.

FWIW, a friend drove a 245 gr jacketed powerbelt from brisket to ham on a bull elk. Same bullet from same package and same powder blew up and went to pieces in a small 50#
hog! Go figger!

They are for ML season so a scope and sabots are out. I'm completely pumped for it. Sure I'm shooting a fancy pants modern inline, but there's still a a lot of sport involved in it.

On the subject of powerbelts, I've now read too many bad stories of their performance to ever point one at a critter. When I was a kid on a deer hunt, we got skunked. My dad was packing up the last of the camp and I went walking with my .22 hoping to see a rabbit. I saw a little doe through some brush and decided to try it. 36 grain bulk .22 Lr and that doe dropped like she'd been struck by lightning. The moral of the story, I'd never reccomend trying it. According to what I read, a powerbelt is a [beeep] of a gamble too. I'm gonna opt for a sledge hammer, just not sure which one yet.
 
Hands down most accurate slug I ever shot out of my .50 was a 450 gr cast from a LEE mold for the 50-70 govt load. It casts at about .515 and needed a bit of sizing.

Have not hunted with slugs for over 25 years, but last time was with the now old school maxi ball 370 gr over 70 gr goes 2f. Good sized bull at 131 yards both lungs through and through.

I agree, your hunt will be no easier because of modern gear. An ML is an ML!
 
One thing to keep in mind is Blackhorn 209 recommends bullets at 350 grain or less because of the magnum snap. The 385 gain has worked good for me but you should be careful going any bigger.
 
Originally Posted By: Smackem223One thing to keep in mind is Blackhorn 209 recommends bullets at 350 grain or less because of the magnum snap. The 385 gain has worked good for me but you should be careful going any bigger.

I'm not a big guy, 5'8" 155 lbs. 90 grains blackhorn with a 350 grain FPB hit real hard. 12 of those 3 days ago and my shoulder isn't bruised like I was shooting clay pigeons, but my back feels weird.

I got the 460 grain no excuses bullets from the mail box, but I'm not too proud to admit I'm a little shy of them. I'm going to try them with 75 grains of blackhorn and with GOEX. I'm not going to let myself develop a flinch. I've heard they're hard to get rid of. Im thinking that I may end up settling on a bullet around 300 grains. My chronograph doesn't read very well with the ML. Big blast I guess. If I can get those big 460's to go 1250-1300 without breaking my back I think I'll have a good killing load. So much to learn, so little time.
 
Adrian, do you know anyone who might have one of those Pachmayr or the like shoulder recoil pads which you could borrow? Or maybe a Caldwell Lead Sled which you could use while doing your load development? I have both and am about the same size as you and I typically use my Lead Sled when shooting my Savage smokeless ML rifle and magnum CF rifles at the range; it really helps a lot.
 
I have a knight .54 no recoil pad if I shoot bullets over 300 grains it starts to feel like shotgun slugs. If you do not have a lead shed the best shooting position is a standing bench with bags this will reduce your back discomfort. I have quick disconnect mounts for scoped load development, remove for hunting where scopes not legal.
 
Originally Posted By: biggen0_8Blackhorn 209 is the best thing I've found for ML's short of smokeless.

Do I hear you. That is why I shoot a Savage 10-ML. I load 5744 smokeless.
 
Originally Posted By: CrusaderAdrian, do you know anyone who might have one of those Pachmayr or the like shoulder recoil pads which you could borrow? Or maybe a Caldwell Lead Sled which you could use while doing your load development? I have both and am about the same size as you and I typically use my Lead Sled when shooting my Savage smokeless ML rifle and magnum CF rifles at the range; it really helps a lot.

A shooting buddy has a lead sled, I shot from it the first time I was out with this ML, it definitely worked. I really want to get comfortable with the gun from field positions, so I'm going to go get a pachmayer or past recoil pad and see if that helps. I'll be honest, I e always thought those things were for sissys. This muzzle loader is not only a learning experience, it's also been quite humbling. Thanks for the idea, hadn't even crossed my mind.

I'm going out Friday afternoon, I think I'm going to try 75 grains of blackhorn. Looks like that should be equal to about 90 grains of GOEX so "I THINK" it will be good. If it will shoot through 3 2x8's, seems like it should be adequate. Anybody tried that light of a load?

Thanks very much for all the responses so far. Keep 'em coming!
 
Ok little update here. I got to the range yesterday, I tried out the 460 grain no excuses bullet. I loaded it with 75 grains of Blackhorn, and the recoil is back to manageable. I only got a few minutes before I was rained out, so I couldn't chronograph anything. I shot at about 60 yards, and hit an 8" steel target with every shot. Very similar feeling to 100 grains of GOEX. I think if I practice a lot, and put that big slug right behind the front shoulder I'll be fine. A sore shoulder and back won't make an elk any deader. ( deader? That a word? )
 
I have three T/C muzzleloaders and have used just about every bullet/powder combination there is. For powder, Blackhorn 209 is the ONLY powder to use. It is head and shoulders above all the other powders. For my T/C Omega, my hunting load is 90 grains of BH209, a CCI 209M primer, a 245-grain Barnes Spitfire MZ BT with the yellow HPH-24 sabots that are included with the bullets. This combination puts three rounds in one hole at 100 yards. You just have to try the various bullets and sabots to see what your rifle likes. Try Hornady XTP's, Barnes Expander MZ's and Spitfire T-EZ's. If you want to use a full-bore mini-ball bullet, try a Thor, which is the original Barnes "X" bullet. Thor will send you a trial pack of 5 bullets in diameters from .500 to .504 FOR FREE so you get the exact diameter bullet for your rifle.
 


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