New 223 Ai build

Originally Posted By: orkanI shot some prairie dogs recently with a guy that had a .223AI in 10 twist. He was shooting a 60gr class bullet, I don't recall which.

My .223AI is an 8 twist, and I'm shooting 80gr bergers. He missed a lot more than I did, and his wind requirements at distance were drastically worse than mine.

If I want to shoot 50gr bullets in my 8 twist, I can do it without a problem. Accuracy and velocity are both there. Yet if I want to shoot heavy bullets, I can. I think it's foolish to go with a 10 twist when you lose nothing practical by going to an 8. The heavy bullets allow that cartridge to really reach out there.

The same logic applies for a 22-250.

Perhaps he’s like me (and you for that matter) and has plenty of other stuff to shoot heavies.

I don’t know when it became necessary that everything have long range capability, but I think that’s foolish too.

After having an 8 twist 22-250, I recommended a 10 for my father in law. When I rebarrel my 22x47, it’ll be a 10 as well.

I have a 6XC in the making, it’ll be a 1:12.

If I want to hunt open country, or hunt deer/coyote in the same outing, I’ll take along a 6 or 6.5x47.

Why does everything have to be capable of shooting 1,000 yards and beyond?
 
Originally Posted By: CZ527Why does everything have to be capable of shooting 1,000 yards and beyond?

Where did I say anything about shooting a thousand yards and beyond? We were shooting most of our pdogs inside of 600yds that day. Go run the numbers on an 80gr berger vs a 60gr whatever you like at 600. A hit is a hit and a miss a miss. When that prairie wind kicks up, the one stomps all over the other. Vertical trajectory is irrelevant.

It's about options, and having them... vs not.

Tell me the down sides of having an 8 twist 223AI. Why NOT have that, rather than a 10 twist?

A guy never knows where his desires will float. If built with maximum versatility in mind without sacrificing ANY of the specific intent... then it's a win, pure and simple.

Guys shooting heavy-per-caliber high bc bullets which are better in the wind hit more targets than those shooting light bullets. This is a general rule and one I've witnessed many times. Wind is the factor that separates shooters. If you're dealing with a 5mph+ window of error while the guy next to you is dealing with a 1mph window of error... you're going to be smashing things while he's missing left/right all day.
 
I would like to have the rifle be as versatile as possible.
But i ask once again.
With a mag length of 2.338 MAX. Would i be able to load some of the heavier bullets and still have it feed reliably?
 
Originally Posted By: orkanOriginally Posted By: CZ527Why does everything have to be capable of shooting 1,000 yards and beyond?

Where did I say anything about shooting a thousand yards and beyond? We were shooting most of our pdogs inside of 600yds that day. Go run the numbers on an 80gr berger vs a 60gr whatever you like at 600. A hit is a hit and a miss a miss. When that prairie wind kicks up, the one stomps all over the other. Vertical trajectory is irrelevant.

It's about options, and having them... vs not.

Tell me the down sides of having an 8 twist 223AI. Why NOT have that, rather than a 10 twist?

A guy never knows where his desires will float. If built with maximum versatility in mind without sacrificing ANY of the specific intent... then it's a win, pure and simple.

Guys shooting heavy-per-caliber high bc bullets which are better in the wind hit more targets than those shooting light bullets. This is a general rule and one I've witnessed many times. Wind is the factor that separates shooters. If you're dealing with a 5mph+ window of error while the guy next to you is dealing with a 1mph window of error... you're going to be smashing things while he's missing left/right all day.

I honestly can remember the last time I missed things right and left all day long, but I do spend a ton of time shooting. Practice makes “nearly” perfect I guess.

As for why I’d choose a 10 over an 8, it’s just enough to suit the bullets I like shooting. I guess this is one of those “duh” moments as I don’t know what else to say. It is FACT that peak pressure will stick its ugly head up sooner with a fast twist barrel. Why give up velocity?

I spend a good deal of time thinking about what I want before I build it, so I don’t fear floating desires.

High BC bullets are better in the wind? Huh? No [beeep]? Never heard that one before.
Never understood hunting prairie dogs either. They’re a pain in the [beeep] alright, but they were here first.

You do you, that’s great. I just don’t think you should call a new member foolish for not agreeing with you.
 
Stan, I know you may have the need to kill some larger animals. There are a couple of bullets that are stellar killers on deer size animals, but they are not what you would consider a High BC type of bullet.

65g Sierra
64g Winchester, probably one of the most under rated bullets on the market

both of these bullets will shoot well jumping, especially the 64g Winchester.

Jackels will not take much to kill, but I don't know what other kinds of game you could be going after. Would be nice to shoot Baboons that are raiding crops.
 
In my opinion an 8 twist is a no brainer. I have a 9.5 twist and an 8 twist, when the wind picks up I'm always happy if I have the 8 twist. I shoot 50 vmax in the 9.5 when fire forming and 53 vmax once formed. I shoot 75 amax in the 8 twist but can also shoot the 50's if I want to.
 
Originally Posted By: CZ527I honestly can remember the last time I missed things right and left all day long, but I do spend a ton of time shooting. Practice makes “nearly” perfect I guess.

As for why I’d choose a 10 over an 8, it’s just enough to suit the bullets I like shooting. I guess this is one of those “duh” moments as I don’t know what else to say. It is FACT that peak pressure will stick its ugly head up sooner with a fast twist barrel. Why give up velocity?

I spend a good deal of time thinking about what I want before I build it, so I don’t fear floating desires.

High BC bullets are better in the wind? Huh? No [beeep]? Never heard that one before.
Never understood hunting prairie dogs either. They’re a pain in the [beeep] alright, but they were here first.

You do you, that’s great. I just don’t think you should call a new member foolish for not agreeing with you.



I didn't call a new member foolish. I said choosing a 10 twist over an 8 twist is foolish. I speak from a substantial amount of first hand experience. I wonder, how many .223AI's have you done load work on? What is your occupation? It's my job to know this stuff, and I take it quite seriously. Since you admit to not prairie dog shooting, you can simply replace that activity with shooting 3" targets at close to far distances at various angles to the wind and various inclinations in actual field conditions in varying terrain. Regardless of how you describe the activity, the demand to hit very small targets consistently at extended ranges is there. If you seriously are proclaiming that you are just so good that you can call the wind every single time well enough to hit a 3" target at 600yds with a bullet carrying a ballistic coefficient of around .200 when the wind is gusting from 8-18mph... then I guess you must be one of those shooters I always hear about on the internet. Congrats to you, because most people can not make that shot on the first round when asked to do it. Not with the configuration you're suggesting. Yet with an 80gr class bullet, it's not too difficult, given roughly twice the BC.

Have you owned an 8 twist as well as a 10 twist .223AI? Because I have done considerable load development with both, as well as 12 and 14 twist rifles, and "peak pressure" doesn't "stick its ugly head up sooner" with an 8 twist than it does a 10. There is no velocity difference between an 8 twist and a 10 twist with light weight bullets. When comparing a 14 twist and an 8 twist, you might, and I emphasize might, see a velocity gain with light bullets in the 14 twist... but it will not be greater than the barrel to barrel velocity variance typically seen anyway. So in other words, less than 100fps, which can not be laid at the feet of any one barrel. Based on my experience, maybe a 14 twist could account for 35-50fps gain over an 8 twist... but you'd have to do some very questionable juggling of the numbers to fully account that for the twist rate alone.

I could provide a summary of my experience and hard data with the above couple dozen rifles, but it is quite clear to me that I'd be wasting my time. I've seen your interactions with people in previous threads and no amount of data I lay against this will sway your opinion. Swear all you like, expound all you like... but until you prove to me that you can eclipse my own level of experience with a great deal of various configurations of .223AI's... I'll not respond to you further.
 
I have shot a few thousand prairie dogs I suppose. And I guess that 98% or more were less than 500 yards. My .223 AI has a 1/14" twist and I managed to connect on pasture poodles as far as 705 yards distant with 50 grain Ballistic Tips.

One year I was out there with someone that had a fast twist AR-15 that he had setup for varmint. He was shooting (I think) 77 grain bullets out of his AR and I was shooting 50 grain out of mine. I dont remember any hits further than 450 yards or so but he was not getting any more than I was and when I connected they usually when flying while his often ran around a bit before they expired. This was maybe 10 years ago now and I dont remember what bullets he was using and they may have been match bullets for all I know, but my faster out the barrel bullets were killing them DRT and his were not. Not usually anyway.

One reason I really like a 1/14" twist is that it shoots the 40 grain bullets so well and I use lots of bullets of that weight on our local ground squirrels. My 1/9" twist never shot the 40 grain bullets as well as it did the 50 grainers so when I made my .223 AI I went with a 1/14" twist. Quite a few dead critters later I still have not regretted it.
 
It seems very fast twist barrels and heavy for caliber bullets is the norm right now. I'm not saying its a bad thing, just seems to be normal these days. Just my opinion, 70 and 80 grain bullets from a 223, be it AI'ed or not is going to pretty much kill the velocity and have the trajectory of a rock. I'd go with a slower twist, shoot 55-60 grain bullets max at respectable velocity's and go kill stuff. If you want to shoot heavier bullets, get a larger caliber rifle.
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodog I'd go with a slower twist, shoot 55-60 grain bullets max at respectable velocity's and go kill stuff. If you want to shoot heavier bullets, get a larger caliber rifle.

I feel the same way, Bill. That's why for my long range rig I am using a .243 AI (thanks, Ackleyman!) with a 1/10" twist in it. Sent a 600+ yard rock chuck into orbit with it too. Lots of fun!
 
Is it OK to have a slow twist and a fast twist in the same cartridge - 2 different rifles?

I hope so. So's I'm not breaking some rule. Mine are in 22-250.
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogIt seems very fast twist barrels and heavy for caliber bullets is the norm right now. I'm not saying its a bad thing, just seems to be normal these days. Just my opinion, 70 and 80 grain bullets from a 223, be it AI'ed or not is going to pretty much kill the velocity and have the trajectory of a rock. I'd go with a slower twist, shoot 55-60 grain bullets max at respectable velocity's and go kill stuff. If you want to shoot heavier bullets, get a larger caliber rifle
.
How about you look at the trajectory of say a 50vmax @3500 and a 75amax @3050 out to say 800 yds. You will find that it is the 50 that drops like a rock, and look at the windage while your at it.
 
Evrything's a compromise. You lose something to gain something.

It just depends on which one you can or can't live without.

Both have their roles to play. A fast twist just gives you more options.
 
why why why do I want to shoot a 223 at 800 yards. Not my game at all. If my target of opportunity is at 800 yards, I'll either let it walk or hope it comes closer. Either way, I'll hunt another day.

Most likely, if your shooting a 223 at 800yds, your shooting steel. Steel targets don't move. Trajectory on a still target is not the same a a live animal that moves. Once again, this is just my opinion. I don't have a say or care what others build to shoot. Its not my money.
 
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My response was only to show that your statement about heavy bullets dropping like a rock was wrong. I did not say anything about shooting an animal at 800 yds.
 
I realize that and totally don't disagree but... any bullet from a 223 at 800 yds is probably gonna drop like a rock. LOL That's a stretch for a 22 caliber bullet. And I know, they shoot fast twist 223 in F-class but you don't see very many in the top either. There's just to many better calibers to get the job done.

If what I just read is correct, a 75 grain bullet with a 100 yards zero, drops 375.4 inchs at 1000 yards. Not exactly a lazer beam.
 
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Originally Posted By: pyscodogI realize that and totally don't disagree but... any bullet from a 223 at 800 yds is probably gonna drop like a rock. LOL That's a stretch for a 22 caliber bullet. And I know, they shoot fast twist 223 in F-class but you don't see very many in the top either. There's just to many better calibers to get the job done.

If what I just read is correct, a 75 grain bullet with a 100 yards zero, drops 375.4 inchs at 1000 yards. Not exactly a lazer beam.

What numbers do you read for 800 yards? Just to keep it apples and apples with the discussion...
 
We should start a new thread here as we are getting off topic. OP ask about 8 or 10 twist barrel and we all have our own opinions on which is better. I do find it interesting that a barrel that will shoot both lite and heavy bullets can be an eye opener when you compare the two bullets side by side. The lite bullets start out fast but at some point the slower heavy bullets end up going faster than the lite fast bullets, at about 400 yds. At some point downrange the heavy bullet is going about 50% faster than the lite bullet and will have way more energy. You lose nothing with a fast twist, it's a beautiful thing.
 
Originally Posted By: orkanOriginally Posted By: CZ527I honestly can remember the last time I missed things right and left all day long, but I do spend a ton of time shooting. Practice makes “nearly” perfect I guess.

As for why I’d choose a 10 over an 8, it’s just enough to suit the bullets I like shooting. I guess this is one of those “duh” moments as I don’t know what else to say. It is FACT that peak pressure will stick its ugly head up sooner with a fast twist barrel. Why give up velocity?

I spend a good deal of time thinking about what I want before I build it, so I don’t fear floating desires.

High BC bullets are better in the wind? Huh? No [beeep]? Never heard that one before.
Never understood hunting prairie dogs either. They’re a pain in the [beeep] alright, but they were here first.

You do you, that’s great. I just don’t think you should call a new member foolish for not agreeing with you.



I didn't call a new member foolish. I said choosing a 10 twist over an 8 twist is foolish. I speak from a substantial amount of first hand experience. I wonder, how many .223AI's have you done load work on? What is your occupation? It's my job to know this stuff, and I take it quite seriously. Since you admit to not prairie dog shooting, you can simply replace that activity with shooting 3" targets at close to far distances at various angles to the wind and various inclinations in actual field conditions in varying terrain. Regardless of how you describe the activity, the demand to hit very small targets consistently at extended ranges is there. If you seriously are proclaiming that you are just so good that you can call the wind every single time well enough to hit a 3" target at 600yds with a bullet carrying a ballistic coefficient of around .200 when the wind is gusting from 8-18mph... then I guess you must be one of those shooters I always hear about on the internet. Congrats to you, because most people can not make that shot on the first round when asked to do it. Not with the configuration you're suggesting. Yet with an 80gr class bullet, it's not too difficult, given roughly twice the BC.

Have you owned an 8 twist as well as a 10 twist .223AI? Because I have done considerable load development with both, as well as 12 and 14 twist rifles, and "peak pressure" doesn't "stick its ugly head up sooner" with an 8 twist than it does a 10. There is no velocity difference between an 8 twist and a 10 twist with light weight bullets. When comparing a 14 twist and an 8 twist, you might, and I emphasize might, see a velocity gain with light bullets in the 14 twist... but it will not be greater than the barrel to barrel velocity variance typically seen anyway. So in other words, less than 100fps, which can not be laid at the feet of any one barrel. Based on my experience, maybe a 14 twist could account for 35-50fps gain over an 8 twist... but you'd have to do some very questionable juggling of the numbers to fully account that for the twist rate alone.

I could provide a summary of my experience and hard data with the above couple dozen rifles, but it is quite clear to me that I'd be wasting my time. I've seen your interactions with people in previous threads and no amount of data I lay against this will sway your opinion. Swear all you like, expound all you like... but until you prove to me that you can eclipse my own level of experience with a great deal of various configurations of .223AI's... I'll not respond to you further.

I like how you tried to stack this deck in your favor, with that .200 BC, which I wouldn’t sling for nothing but fox hunting. 69 Sierra or the new 70 RDF (which I’ve verified the BC out to a modest 915 yards with less than 1/4 minute of vertical) is where I’d look for precision work from a 10 twist.

I cant speak for specific experience with a 3” target at 600 yards, though I do have both 2” and 4” at 635 yards, which is where a lot of my extended load verification is done.

As for load development with 223 AI, I guess you’ve got me there as I’ve always believed putting a skunk in the oven wouldn’t make it a biscuit. I spoke only from experience with a couple dozen 223, maybe half a dozen ‘250s and the fraternal Beanland twins, 22x47 and 22 Dasher. Same bullets, same formulas, different headstamps.

As for shooting in the wind, take the time to check my local weather, I am blessed to live in a place where I can get better every day. We call 8 mph modest, very modest.

So far in 2018, I’ve fired roughly 4,000 purposeful, centerfire rifle rounds. I take a lot of pride in running my gun and not my mouth, which I am well aware is a trait we share.
I try to shoot with the best I can, to share and absorb knowledge, always holding the mantra that you’ll never get any better assuming you know it all.

Perhaps I’ve taken you the wrong way, I don’t know. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s hard to let things roll off when you use words like foolish, given some of your content in the past wherein others were likely made to feel belittled. Sharing opinions is one thing (LOVE that annealing video and use your method) but thumping your chest is another. That being said, I know you’ve spent years and years behind a rifle and can really shoot well. It just really rubs me wrong when you automatically assume you’re the only one with such qualifications that chooses to grace this website.

Again, if you mean well, great. I apologize. I guess I’ll never know, as you’ve stated I won’t get a reply.
 


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