doggin coyotes
Well-known member
OUCH. I saw THAT coming.
new brass way under saami headspace
- Thread starter buckyne
- Start date
bignasty
New member
Originally Posted By: Coyote#1You my dear sir are the idiot! And it makes no difference how much ammo you have reloaded your still an idiot.. Like I said "butt head" you should clarify. FWIW, 0.014 is not safe catridge headspace as you made it sound to be.
Ballistics Research Labs guess who the owner is !!!!!!!!
Ballistics Research Labs guess who the owner is !!!!!!!!
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
As long as you lube the case before initinale firing, everything will be good.
Jack
Jack
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: Coyote#1You my dear sir are the idiot! And it makes no difference how much ammo you have reloaded your still an idiot.. Like I said "butt head" you should clarify. FWIW, 0.014 is not safe catridge headspace as you made it sound to be.
Before your next stupid, brain phart moment, go and look at the SAAMI specifications for the 243, and post (here) the max chamber and the min case headspaces...
... do you like ketchup on your crow?
Before your next stupid, brain phart moment, go and look at the SAAMI specifications for the 243, and post (here) the max chamber and the min case headspaces...
... do you like ketchup on your crow?
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: SmokelessWhy does the Hornaday gage read short 3-7 thou? (How)
And if zeroed on a fired case why is it not accurate to that chamber?
Smoke...
The Hornady gauge is a really neat idea that has poor execution.
The datum bore holes are accurate (a 0.330" bore hole is 0.330")... so the gauges should be accurate.
But Aluminum is relatively soft, and when the face of tube is cut off square, it leaves a little raggity stuff around the bore hole. Instead of polishing the face on a lap, and then hard anodizing them... they have hired some neanderthal they found out back in the garbage bin... and his job is to clean up the raggity chafe with a COUNTER SINK... (gag!!)
... so when you first zero the tool with the tube against the base of the vernier, all should be good... but when you put a case in the tool, the tube goes down further on the shoulder than it should - by exactly the amount of the counter sink.
When I found this with my first tool (I opened the box, and checked the headspace on a special order four place (0.000X) certified headspace gauge, and it was waaaaaay off)... so I looked at it and saw the counter sink marks - they were obviously done by hand, cuz every tube was different. I called Hornady and "we talked"....
A year later, I bought another one, thinking that by now, the problem would be solved... nope!
So... the only way you can get accurate measure of case headspace is to use an accurate headspace gauge like this...
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod19183.aspx
..... and put the gauge in the Hornady tool, and zero it. Lets say the headspace gauge is 1.5000", and then zero the caliper.
Then put the fired case in the Hornady tool, and get a reading. If the caliper says -0.004", then you know the headspace measurement for the case is 1.496"... and you can take that to the bank!!
NEVER use drop in gauges like this one...
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod55081.aspx
They are made for fast inspection and they tell you nothing.
If you need to know the chamber headspace, remove the firing pin. If the bolt has a spring loaded ejector, then remove that too.
Then put layers on scotch tape on the back face of the headspace gauge, and each time you put a piece on, put the bolt in the action and let it close by the weight of the handle. When the handle stops just before it hits bottom, than add the numbers of tape layers x 0.002" and that is the chamber headspace - it sounds goofie, but it works and "top of the line" gunsmiths use this method, because a full set of headspace gauges (in one thou steps) for each caliber is around $350-$400 EACH!!
For your question, "And if zeroed on a fired case why is it not accurate to that chamber?"
That can sometimes work, but cases spring back, and it is NOT a predictable amount - so if you fire a case, the case does NOT come out being a mirror image of the chamber, but a smaller version, and you cannot predict how much smaller.
If you neck size and fire the case 3 or 5 times, then you will get a close approximation, and that headspace should be within 1 to 3 thou of chamber headspace (depending on the receiver type, rigidity, and bolt lug surface finish).
You can take that fired case and do the tape thing described above and get accurate measurements.
And if zeroed on a fired case why is it not accurate to that chamber?
Smoke...
The Hornady gauge is a really neat idea that has poor execution.
The datum bore holes are accurate (a 0.330" bore hole is 0.330")... so the gauges should be accurate.
But Aluminum is relatively soft, and when the face of tube is cut off square, it leaves a little raggity stuff around the bore hole. Instead of polishing the face on a lap, and then hard anodizing them... they have hired some neanderthal they found out back in the garbage bin... and his job is to clean up the raggity chafe with a COUNTER SINK... (gag!!)
... so when you first zero the tool with the tube against the base of the vernier, all should be good... but when you put a case in the tool, the tube goes down further on the shoulder than it should - by exactly the amount of the counter sink.
When I found this with my first tool (I opened the box, and checked the headspace on a special order four place (0.000X) certified headspace gauge, and it was waaaaaay off)... so I looked at it and saw the counter sink marks - they were obviously done by hand, cuz every tube was different. I called Hornady and "we talked"....
A year later, I bought another one, thinking that by now, the problem would be solved... nope!
So... the only way you can get accurate measure of case headspace is to use an accurate headspace gauge like this...
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod19183.aspx
..... and put the gauge in the Hornady tool, and zero it. Lets say the headspace gauge is 1.5000", and then zero the caliper.
Then put the fired case in the Hornady tool, and get a reading. If the caliper says -0.004", then you know the headspace measurement for the case is 1.496"... and you can take that to the bank!!
NEVER use drop in gauges like this one...
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod55081.aspx
They are made for fast inspection and they tell you nothing.
If you need to know the chamber headspace, remove the firing pin. If the bolt has a spring loaded ejector, then remove that too.
Then put layers on scotch tape on the back face of the headspace gauge, and each time you put a piece on, put the bolt in the action and let it close by the weight of the handle. When the handle stops just before it hits bottom, than add the numbers of tape layers x 0.002" and that is the chamber headspace - it sounds goofie, but it works and "top of the line" gunsmiths use this method, because a full set of headspace gauges (in one thou steps) for each caliber is around $350-$400 EACH!!
For your question, "And if zeroed on a fired case why is it not accurate to that chamber?"
That can sometimes work, but cases spring back, and it is NOT a predictable amount - so if you fire a case, the case does NOT come out being a mirror image of the chamber, but a smaller version, and you cannot predict how much smaller.
If you neck size and fire the case 3 or 5 times, then you will get a close approximation, and that headspace should be within 1 to 3 thou of chamber headspace (depending on the receiver type, rigidity, and bolt lug surface finish).
You can take that fired case and do the tape thing described above and get accurate measurements.
CatShooter
New member
Something to remember about headspace...
They are only measurements that are set so you can shoot mass produced ammunition in mass produced firearms, all made by different manufacturers... on bad days
Once you have a rifle and case, what you wind up with is up to you.
If you buy a 280 Nosler rifle, the first round you put in it will have something like 0.053" of "headspace"... that's a hellovalotta headspace, yet it is not dangerous, and the case will be fine - beautiful - when it comes out.
People throw these numbers around without understanding what they really mean, like it makes them sound like big shots.
Headspace numbers (both case and chamber) are guides that tell you what you have and how to control what you have so it will serve you best.
In the past, I have talked about the 400 piece batch of Winchester 22-250 cases that I bought in 1975, and loaded them ~45 times each (and shot out 5 barrels with) before I just got tired of looking at them and pitched them (still fully usable).
I replaced them with the then new Lapua 22-250 cases. (Yummy
)
There are guys on this site that have gotten twice that case life.
It is how you use those numbers and how you manage your cases that determine how long they last, or if the heads fall off after 4 or 5 firings.
They are only measurements that are set so you can shoot mass produced ammunition in mass produced firearms, all made by different manufacturers... on bad days
Once you have a rifle and case, what you wind up with is up to you.
If you buy a 280 Nosler rifle, the first round you put in it will have something like 0.053" of "headspace"... that's a hellovalotta headspace, yet it is not dangerous, and the case will be fine - beautiful - when it comes out.
People throw these numbers around without understanding what they really mean, like it makes them sound like big shots.
Headspace numbers (both case and chamber) are guides that tell you what you have and how to control what you have so it will serve you best.
In the past, I have talked about the 400 piece batch of Winchester 22-250 cases that I bought in 1975, and loaded them ~45 times each (and shot out 5 barrels with) before I just got tired of looking at them and pitched them (still fully usable).
I replaced them with the then new Lapua 22-250 cases. (Yummy
There are guys on this site that have gotten twice that case life.
It is how you use those numbers and how you manage your cases that determine how long they last, or if the heads fall off after 4 or 5 firings.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: buckynethanks everyone. Sorry to start a catfight
No apologizes needed... it is a good, informative thread.
Meow
No apologizes needed... it is a good, informative thread.
Meow
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: fw707Originally Posted By: buckynethanks everyone. Sorry to start a catfight
It wasn't really much of a fight.
Never bring a bean shooter to a gun fight.
It wasn't really much of a fight.
Never bring a bean shooter to a gun fight.